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Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.), but for the sake of simplicity, we decided to name this DD this. Let’s start, without further ado!

Countries:
Countries.png

Colored Wastelands.png

The region is quite interesting in 1337, as there are plenty of countries to play with. The Ilkhanate is still alive, but in name only, the real power being hosted by the Jalayirids, who are overlords of some of their neighbors (the Chobanids, and the Eretnids). Other countries, such as Gurgan, the Kartids, and Muzaffarids are also struggling to get the hegemony over the region. Meanwhile, the strongest power in the Caucasus is the Kingdom of Georgia, although the region is also quite fragmented among different polities.

Ilkhanate.png

And speaking of the Ilkhanate, you may have wondered why isn’t it a unified tag… Well, it’s because we consider that it is clearly in decadence, having lost any grasp of authority over the provinces, so the best way of portraying it is through an International Organization. What we can see in this mapmode is that there are two pretenders to get the power, the Jalayarids and Gurgan, with the other countries still being formally part of it. I won’t talk more today about how it works and its features, but I’ll just say that there are two clear fates for the Ilkhanate: being dissolved, as historically happened, or being restored in full power as a unified country.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

Not much to say today about the dynasties, as they’re akin to the country names, in most cases. Well, you might wonder which one is the yellow one, ruling over Gurgan… That country is ruled by the Borgijin, heirs of Genghis Khan. Now you get the full picture of their rule over the Ilkhanate being challenged by the Jalayirids, I think…

Locations:
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Location 2.png

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Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png


Provinces:
Provinces.png


Areas:
Areas.png


Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’re back to a region with lots of different climates, topography, and vegetation. This will make it very unique, gameplay and looking-wise.

Harbors:
Harbor.png

You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

There's quite a lot of cultural division throughout the region... The Caucasus is, well, the Caucasus, divided among lots of different people. Then we have the Iraqi and Kurdish in Iraq, Persian and a number of other cultures in Iran, Baloch in Balochistan, Afghan in Afghanistan, and Khorasani, Turkmen, Khorezm, Hazara, and Tajiks, among others, in Khorasan and Transoxiana.

Religions:
Religion.png

Another interesting religious situation. Orthodox is the main religion in Georgia, and Miaphysitism in Armenia, with other confessions spread here and there throughout the Caucasus (Khabzeism, and three 'Pagan' confessions, Karachay-Balkar, Vainakh, and Lezgin). Then Iraq is divided among Sunni, to the north, and Shiism, to the south. And Iran is in an interesting situation, having a Sunni majority, but with some important Shiite pockets here and there. And Zoroastrianism, of course. It was not trivial to properly portray them, as we don't have good data for the 14th century. So what we did was some calculations, between sources that tell that there was still a majority as late as the 11th century, and the religion becoming severely reduced by the 16th century. Therefore, we decided to go with 20% of the population as a general rule of thumb; however, we're quite open to feedback over this matter.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

This region is full of rich resources, in stark contrast to the one we showed last week, Arabia. There are a couple of bugs on this mapmode that you might spot, I think.

Markets:
Markets.png

This region has several markets: Tabriz, Baghdad, Esfahan, Hormuz, Nishapur, and Zaranj., This will make for regionally fragmented-but-integrated economies (that is, good market access everyhwere, but with regionally diverging economies).

Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Population 4.png

Population 5.png

The total population of the region is around 9M, taking into account all the different areas that we’re showing today. That is divided into about 4.5M in Iran, 2M in Iraq, 1.5M in the Caucasus, and around 1.5M in Transoxiana.

And that’s all for today! Next Friday we will be taking a look at India! Yes, in its entirety; we think that it is the best way to do it, although we’ll talk more about it next week. Another change, only for next week: the DD will be published at 10:00 instead of the regular 15:00, as I won’t be available in the afternoon to reply. Letting you know so there’s a proper wow-pole-run, yes. See you!
 

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Will you integrate Aramenians Armenia vassal structure to your map? His post seems quite credible!

Yes, although I'm not entirely sure on what some of them would be called, it is a bit hard to read.

The territory of the Vahramians might be changed though. The Ilkhans considered Arran their absolute best pasture, and the text he provided says the Mongols conquered it 100 years ago. While it does say parts of Arran were considerded in the initial Vahramian administrative division, I really don't see the Ilkhans, who would move their Ordos pasture from Mughan to Arran, tolerating a subject holding unto that pasture, especially one that resisted them.

And to me it would seem that Lori-Somktehi would be a vassal under the Georgians. It's not explicitly mentioned, but the territory is right next to Tiblis, and geographical obstructions appear only south of Lori-Somkheti. I would also place Gagi and Khunani under the Georgians, either as part of Lori-Somkheti or the Vahramians

The Amatuni territory also clashes with the previously mentioned Kurdish Jalali tribe. So have to check that. Basile Nikitine does suggest they are Kurdicized Armenians, so it could be the Jalali were the Amatuni prior to being absorbed. Hence, they would be the Amatuni in 1337.
 
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Added:
  • Emirate of Astarabad (vassal to Qasarids)

  • Kingdom of Georgia (independent)
    • Principality of Samtskhe
    • Duchy of Tao
    • Principality of Lori-Somkheti
    • Principality of the Vahramids
  • Kingdom of Ani (vassal to Jalayirids)
    • Principality of Amberd
    • Principality of Vayots Dzor
    • Principality of Artaz


Countries TEXT.png




Locations:

Locations.png



 
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Added:
  • Emirate of Astarabad (vassal to Qasarids)

  • Kingdom of Georgia (independent)
    • Principality of Samtskhe
    • Duchy of Tao
    • Principality of Lori-Somkheti
    • Principality of the Vahramids
  • Kingdom of Ani (vassal to Jalayirids)
    • Principality of the Vachutids
    • Principality of the Proshydids
    • Principality of the Amatuni


View attachment 1189217



Locations:

View attachment 1189218


Samtskhe already controlled all of Tao-Klarjeti, on what basis did you make it a seperate vassal? The Armenian principalities in the south of Georgia are debatable but I more or less agree they should be there.
 
Samtskhe already controlled all of Tao-Klarjeti, on what basis did you make it a seperate vassal? The Armenian principalities in the south of Georgia are debatable but I more or less agree they should be there.



Basing it off of the images below. If you can find mention of Samtskhe owning Tao in 1337, I'll change it.



1726671033863.png


1726671040074.png


1726671138615.png



 

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It seems you're right regarding Speri, but according to this same map, all the principalities in Armenia proper should be subject to Georgia, not to the Ilkhanate.
Edit: The Abkhazian border needs to be reconsidered too, if we are to believe this map.

Yes, we have to take each source and weigh them against eachothers. While that map provides a source for Tao, in the case of the Armenians, other sources weigh more towards their subordination to the Ilkhanate.
 
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Yes, we have to take each source and weigh them against eachothers. While that map provides a source for Tao, in the case of the Armenians, other sources weigh more towards their subordination to the Ilkhanate.
Knowing this region, I wouldn't put ethnic nationalism and historical revisionism past the scholars who make such maps. One must always be careful when inspecting maps of the Balkans, Anatolia, and the Caucasus...
 
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For the division of Gilan, by @ZigTheNorweigan. The land was very fragmented and it could hardly be called unified. More a defensive pact:
  • Lahijan, ruled by the Naservand/Nasirwand clan, holds overlordship of Fuman has dynastic ties to Ranekouh. This makes Lahijan likely the most powerful of the Gilani lords
    • Fuman is said to have been subject to the lord of Lahijan

  • Ranekouh, is said to share the same clan as Lahijan, but not explicitly stated to be under the same rule

  • Tulam: When the Ilkhanate invaded Gilan under Öljeitu in 1306-7, it is said the ruler of Tulam was the one to surround and destroy the invading force, killing their commander Qutlugh Shah. Tulam was not the richest of the Gilani lords, but he had a force of 1000 mounted troops, which gave him considerable influence over the neighbouring lords

  • Rasht is regarded as one of the other significant powers of Gilan

1726676705497.png


"Rulers of Gilan" (1920)


 
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Yes, although I'm not entirely sure on what some of them would be called, it is a bit hard to read.

The territory of the Vahramians might be changed though. The Ilkhans considered Arran their absolute best pasture, and the text he provided says the Mongols conquered it 100 years ago. While it does say parts of Arran were considerded in the initial Vahramian administrative division, I really don't see the Ilkhans, who would move their Ordos pasture from Mughan to Arran, tolerating a subject holding unto that pasture, especially one that resisted them.
On aramenians maps-locations of Gardman and Shamkhor are mountain terrain.
And to me it would seem that Lori-Somktehi would be a vassal under the Georgians. It's not explicitly mentioned, but the territory is right next to Tiblis, and geographical obstructions appear only south of Lori-Somkheti. I would also place Gagi and Khunani under the Georgians, either as part of Lori-Somkheti or the Vahramians
territory was armenian populated,and rulers was armenian,since Zakarids also had power,there's no reason for them to be subjects of georgian kings,
rather kings of Ani.

The Amatuni territory also clashes with the previously mentioned Kurdish Jalali tribe. So have to check that. Basile Nikitine does suggest they are Kurdicized Armenians, so it could be the Jalali were the Amatuni prior to being absorbed. Hence, they would be the Amatuni in 1337.
where can i see about Jalalis?

Also what you think about whole populations of northern caucasus,near Caspian and near Lakes,you can see that there are too less population based
probably on sources after Temur came,can you suggest population numbers for them?
 
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On aramenians maps-locations of Gardman and Shamkhor are mountain terrain.

territory was armenian populated,and rulers was armenian,since Zakarids also had power,there's no reason for them to be subjects of georgian kings,
rather kings of Ani.


where can i see about Jalalis?

Also what you think about whole populations of northern caucasus,near Caspian and near Lakes,you can see that there are too less population based
probably on sources after Temur came,can you suggest population numbers for them?

No clue about population numbers tbh.

Although I generally agree there is a lot less than one would expect. Especially when we have to take into account 850,000 / 1,000,000 Mongols/Turkics that came into the Middle East and Caucasus with Hülegu in 1255-57. And it has been 80~ years since, so the populations (both nomadic and sedentary) must have grown to fill the massively depopulated areas.

If we accounted this for the in-game population, they (Mongol and Turkic tribes) would make up 1/4 or 1/5 of the entire population of the Middle East/Caucasus :p
 
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For the division of Gilan, by @ZigTheNorweigan. The land was very fragmented and it could hardly be called unified. More a defensive pact:
  • Lahijan, ruled by the Naservand/Nasirwand clan, holds overlordship of Fuman has dynastic ties to Ranekouh. This makes Lahijan likely the most powerful of the Gilani lords
    • Fuman is said to have been subject to the lord of Lahijan
  • Ranekouh, is said to share the same clan as Lahijan, but not explicitly stated to be under the same rule

  • Tulam: When the Ilkhanate invaded Gilan under Öljeitu in 1306-7, it is said the ruler of Tulam was the one to surround and destroy the invading force, killing their commander Qutlugh Shah. Tulam was not the richest of the Gilani lords, but he had a force of 1000 mounted troops, which gave him considerable influence over the neighbouring lords

  • Rasht is regarded as one of the other significant powers of Gilan

View attachment 1189281

"Rulers of Gilan" (1920)


Haha brother dont know why your crediting me you did 90% of the work! thanks though GIlani OPM ftw. to add on the leader of Lahijan is either Amira Sharafu'd-Dawla or Amira Pahlawan his father, the only data is that the formers son succeeded him sometime after 1350 so the leader is either him or his father most likely. The leader of Ranekouh/Ranikuh is Amira Muhammad atleast as of 1350 cant find anything regarding 1337
 
No clue about population numbers tbh.

Although I generally agree there is a lot less than one would expect. Especially when we have to take into account 850,000 / 1,000,000 Mongols/Turkics that came into the Middle East and Caucasus with Hülegu in 1255-57. And it has been 80~ years since, so the population must have grown to fill the massively depopulated areas.

If we accounted this for the in-game population, they would make up 1/4 or 1/5 of the entire population of the Middle East/Caucasus :p
hmm,Timur killed so much,or they died by diseases after? Or they later go to Anatolia to fight for the ottomans? And it seems that many merged alter....
ee...how much died in internal wars?

Also if you base your new map only on aramenian's suggestions,i noticed some locations placed wronger.
 
hmm,Timur killed so much,or they died by diseases after? Or they later go to Anatolia to fight for the ottomans? And it seems that many merged alter....
ee...how much died in internal wars?

Also if you base your new map only on aramenian's suggestions,i noticed some locations placed wronger.

If you mean some of the borders, it is because I place my maps on the current in-game locations, rather than proposed locations. Some of Aramenians borders cut locations in half.
 
If you mean some of the borders, it is because I place my maps on the current in-game locations, rather than proposed locations. Some of Aramenians borders cut locations in half.
so if i view closely
Locations.png
armenia.png
Bayazet,nazok-e olya,qarab azia od din should not be part of Amatuni,Gladzor to Proshyan and maybe Yerevn too.
Aside that Gardman and Shamkhor are mountain terrain,i not think they were such good pasture as plains.

Edit:all maps you edit alike? :) hehe... Neverthless you are doing good work,keep it up.
 


Basing it off of the images below. If you can find mention of Samtskhe owning Tao in 1337, I'll change it.



View attachment 1189242

View attachment 1189243

View attachment 1189245


Btw according to these maps the Tao country controls Panaskerti which if you give it to Tao then Samsthke loses border access to Oltu which looks weird and wrong according to the maps so either devs should change the borders of Panaskerti location and/or nearby wastelands; or renaming Panaskerti to something else needed in my opinion.
 
    • Principality of the Amatuni


The Principality of Amatuni should definitely be called Artaz.

https://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D4%B1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D5%BF%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B6%D5%AB%D5%B6%D5 %A5%D6%80
This family ruled yet another principality - Hamshen (Hamamshen).

Artaz amm.png

Principality of the Proshyids
The Principality of Proshyids should definitely be called Vayots Dzor.
Poroshan.png

Principality of the Vachutids
The Principality of the Vachutids should definitely be called Amberd
This region took its name from the destroyed city of Amberd.

Amber.png


amberd.png

This region took its name from the destroyed city of Amberd.
 
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so if i view closely
Locations.png
armenia.png
Bayazet,nazok-e olya,qarab azia od din should not be part of Amatuni,Gladzor to Proshyan and maybe Yerevn too.
Aside that Gardman and Shamkhor are mountain terrain,i not think they were such good pasture as plains.

Edit:all maps you edit alike? :) hehe... Neverthless you are doing good work,keep it up.
I'm not really familiar when it comes to Armenia proper.
But it can be argued that Samtskhe should have a location or two, like Kars.

I'm also not sure why you expanded Georgia into Shirvan.

And personally I wouldn't separate those armenian majority bits in the south of Georgia into separate vassals.

No actual expert here, but those regions I think just had a separate cultural majority, but didn't have any extra autonomy compared to other nobles, aside from Samtskhe of course.

But I'm open minded towards it being so, if there's some evidence.