Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

[skep17]

I find it odd that the Ilkhanate, which at that time (reign of Abu Sa'id) was in it's own golden era, and had defeated the invasion by the Golden Horde, would have simply sat back and let Georgia slip away, taking all of Armenia with them, with no records of attempting to reconquer them? After all, Armenia and Georgia are only a few days ride from the capital of Tabriz and the Ordos' pastures in Arran and Mughan. Especially when Georgia is recorded to have paid tribute in 1336, which gives doubt as to just how independent George V really was, and of his control over Armenia.

Mongols are not famous for mercy, and George V having colluded with the traitor Chupan, and subsequently rebelled, would not have been taken lightly.

Either Georgia somehow was capable of holding off the Ilkhanate from all their lands, something the Golden Horde couldn't do. Or, the exploits of George V are exaggerated, and he more than likely placated Abu Sa'id Ilkhan, and took advantage of the later civil war, closer to our start date.

Not to mention the later battles between the Chobanids and Jalayirids across Armenia. Why would Georgia permit something so devastating to take place in Armenia, something you say would be directly controlled by them, when not even a decade prior they had been able to hold off the Ilkhanate as a whole?

---

There is also the question of why George V stopped appearing in Armenian colophons. You mention that there would not have been a need for it specifically. But why would his name disappear in its entirety if that was the case? If he were the king of Georgia, ruling over Armenia, why would the colophons not mention him, as they had prior to Chupans execution? Excluding the ruler of the realm you live in from your work sounds rather disrespectful if you ask me, especially if you continue to mention the ruler of the neighbouring rival realm.

1336 tribute seems to be last payment. As far as I know, there were "negotiations", sometimes small clashes about this and 1335, when Abu S'aid died is final year since when there was no tribute but 1 year difference is possible in sources. As you say, n 1330's and early 1340's Mongols did have small incursions in Georgia but failed to restore their rule over Georgia. However, Mongols did also appear in 1349-50. In 1348 black plague appeared in Georgia and devastated the country, then someone called Anushirwan invaded from Shirvan, who is said to be a subject of Chobanids and George's successor, David IX had to pay 400k dinars as tribute because he couldn't oppose the Mongols with the black plague crippling his military capabilities. 400k seems a hefty price and probably it's demanded because Georgia didn't pay any tribute when it was supposed to pay during last decade. Of course George would use internal conflicts to strengthen his position but we're talking about a decade, not 1-2 years and 1337 seems to be about the starting point of his brief golden age. If not the black plague, even Anushirwan might have been fended off in 1349. Battles between Chobanids and Jalayirids would be around lake Van and nearby that Georgia didn't really control. Could you give an example of any battle between Chobanids and Jalayirids during 1335-1346 that took place in the territories of Armenia that Georgia controlled? Armenians did live around lake Van and Urmia at that time and could be considered as Armenian territories but definitely they were never controlled by Georgia. Also, when mentioning Armenian colophons we should consider the origins of those documents. Of course Armenian from Ahlat would not mention George because George had nothing to do with them. Neither would someone from Cilicia. Armenians were like Kurds today, spread around Middle East with different overlords. Any Armenian document might mention the local top ruler, local ruler, patriarch or Armenian king in Cilicia.

 

[Ispil]

For what it's worth in the period of the sputtering of the Ilkhanate, I imagine no one contesting the Ilkhanate particularly gave a damn about Armenia. They had bigger fish to fry. I also can't find much in the way of evidence of Armenians being caught up in the succession war for the Ilkhanate, so if there was any sort of suzerainty, it was nominal at best. The closest entity you get are the Sutayids, but they're too busy fighting to even have the ability to hold what they have (Diyarbakr, Ahlat, and Mosul) since those territories are caught in the succession struggle of the Ilkhanate.

Ultimately we're not going to have any hard evidence, but I think there's a good argument for Georgian suzerainty of Armenia simply because everyone else was way too busy fighting over Tabriz to care about whatever was going on over there.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

when god create world god give whole world to georgia but georgia frendly countrie so georgia gived land to other countrie (real)

 

[King_Potat]

I saw the Kyzyl-Su name when I was working on my proposal, but since I couldn't find any information whatsoever about it's historical background other than one somewhat questionable article from the late 1800s saying it was teleported from a different feature that it initially described, I didn't include it. I don't have any direct opposition to it either though; the options I've found for that location are just a heap of unclarity. Wikipedia also has Shagadam but I have no idea what the progeny or accuracy of that is, other than that there's apparently a small peak on the peninsula with that name.

I'm not 100% sure of the historical background of the name but from what I've heard, its the oldest name for the region around Turkmenbashy, getting its name from the Uzboy being occasionally more yellow (because of salt content stuff I don't understand) when it mixes with the Caspian; resulting in a reddish hue of the water in certain parts of the gulf at specific times because of the combination of salt content and silt. Gloukhovsky mentions this briefly (if I remember correctly, although I can't seem to find the page rn) and given Kyzyl-Su literally means red water, I just made the jump in conclusion. Regardless, its probably the best name as the other two options are Shagadam (as you mentioned has basically nothing on it) and Krasnovodsk (which is way too late to be called that at game start).

 

[Floris221]

so, I'm far from a history expert but isn't Assyrian culture missing on the cultural mapmode? Assyrian culture isn't very big but it should def still exist right?

 

[Ispil]

so, I'm far from a history expert but isn't Assyrian culture missing on the cultural mapmode? Assyrian culture isn't very big but it should def still exist right?

That's what "Syriac" is on the map.

 

[Ekyman]

I'm not 100% sure of the historical background of the name but from what I've heard, its the oldest name for the region around Turkmenbashy, getting its name from the Uzboy being occasionally more yellow (because of salt content stuff I don't understand) when it mixes with the Caspian; resulting in a reddish hue of the water in certain parts of the gulf at specific times because of the combination of salt content and silt. Gloukhovsky mentions this briefly (if I remember correctly, although I can't seem to find the page rn) and given Kyzyl-Su literally means red water, I just made the jump in conclusion. Regardless, its probably the best name as the other two options are Shagadam (as you mentioned has basically nothing on it) and Krasnovodsk (which is way too late to be called that at game start).

The options I came across when I was making my proposal were:

• Turkmenbashy: extremely modern so instantly ruled out
• Krasnovodsk: Russian; appeared either right at near the end of the game or after it; I used this as the Russian dynamic name in my proposal but I wouldn't want it there as the base name at the start of the game
• Shagadam: it appears on Wikipedia, is the name of the local soccer team, and apparently the name of a small peak in the area, but there's basically no historical information on it; seems not ideal without some historical sources being found
• (Uly) Balkan: seemingly Turkic, refers to the Balkan mountain range or the Uly Balkan subrange; actually appears in historical sources and is the native language; the only problem is that I can't tell how far north of Mt Arlan the Uly Balkan range actually extends, which makes it very hard to tell if it's actually within the borders of the location or not; nevertheless this is the name I used in my proposal since it's at least roughly the right area and we can definitively say from primary sources that it was used in the right era. This would be my clear top choice if we could find a clear statement of the extent of the Uly Balkan range
• Dehestan-e Sor (and many variants): Persian, appears in one or two sources from shortly before the game starts; the main problem here is it's extremely unclear if this is actually referring to something on this peninsula or not; I used it as my Persian dynamic name and even that was a reach made for fun
• Kyzyl-Su: Turkic; a number of later sources state that this was the pre-Russian name and even the source of the Russian name; my problem with it is that the sources I've seen say that are late 19th century (solidly post-Russian) and don't cite a source themselves, and the name doesn't appear in any of the primary sources I've seen (whether written by a local or a European), nor in any of the more modern secondary sources other than uncited on Wikipedia and other non-academic sites, and one of those 19th century sources (Rawlinson, who I don't have particularly high confidence in) doesn't think it's all that accurate.

From the info we have the best options seem like a choice between Uly Balkan and Kyzyl-Su, which ends up seeming like a choice between

• a name of clear historical fidelity but unclear geographic fidelity ((Uly) Balkan)
• a name of clear geographic fidelity but unclear historical fidelity (Kyzyl-Su)

I personally lean towards the historical fidelity even if it means wishy-washy geography, especially since we know the geography is at worst close, but I don't think leaning the other way is unreasonable.

 

[Georgian Noble]

Hah. and here I thought I was going too much into the nitty-gritty of things.

good job man, not much to critique here tbh.

But there is one more general thing I'd like to add.

The topic of demographics is quite tricky, with the lack of sources that we have.
And judging how and where people used to live, based current population distributions is faulty.

For example, Kakheti is full of abandoned, settlements, monasteries, castles, etc. in what are now very sparsely populated areas.
The area of the Gombori pass is a good example of that.

As you know, there was a huge upheaval between the start date of this game to today.
The black death, Tamerlane and then Persians, did a real number on the country as a whole.
And eastern Georgia almost always took the brunt of the damage dealt by them.

Even just looking at the names of some of the villages now, can give a pretty big hint. e.g. Tsinandali

So areas of Qizik'i, might not have been that devoid of population way back when.
Although I would still think it would have been moderate at best, considering the climate and geography of the area.

Other than that got no real remarks, that I didn't already include in my own post.
Like about maybe including some sort of impassible terrain to represent the rather, not so easily traversable area of the gombori pass.

haha thanks man, your post insipired me!

While I agree with you that it's impossible to know demographic situation of Kiziki at the time, I've spent way too many summers there and know that, outside Tsiv-Gombori range, Kiziki is really unlivable. It's really mostly dry semi-desert with a deadly wildlife and hot summers

 

[giorgi1999]

haha thanks man, your post insipired me!

While I agree with you that it's impossible to know demographic situation of Kiziki at the time, I've spent way too many summers there and know that, outside Tsiv-Gombori range, Kiziki is really unlivable. It's really mostly dry semi-desert with a deadly wildlife and hot summers

Hahah, meanwhile me spending my childhood summers in Tsinandali, surrounded by the lushness of inner Kakheti.

I'm not sure if this is true or not
But I have heard that there were major irrigation networks built based around the iori river.

But I'm not sure where it was and doubt it covered Qiziki.

 

[Subject15]

Do we know when the ethnogenesis of the Aymaq took place?

I am not too sure but I know that Hazaras consider Aymaghs as Sunni Hazaras that were seperated from the Hazara peoples when Abdur Rahman (Founder of the Afghan Nation state) massacred and killed many Hazaras for being Shia which also seperated many other sunni Hazaras in the western side of afg from the shia Hazaras. Tajiks also claim Aymaghs as Tajiks since they speak farsi like Tajiks and Hazaras also then again Tajiks in Afg claim Qizilbash peoples as Tajiks too even though they were Turkic soliders of the Saffavid and Afsharid empires. My personal understanding is that Aymaghs and Hazaras are reminants of Turko-Mongolic peoples ie (Oghuz, Kipchak and Karluk Turks and Mongols). This can be seen in the tribal structure and names of Hazaras and Aymaghs. You have Taimuris, Karluks, Tartar, Turkmani etc as tribal names.

 

[ArchaeoFish18]

Minor correction: there is a spelling error in the location for Tbilisi (it's written "Tblisi")

 

[giorgi1999]

Minor correction: there is a spelling error in the location for Tbilisi (it's written "Tblisi")

How the hell did we not notice that one until now?

 

[GenericUsername1444]

How the hell did we not notice that one until now?

Shouldn't it actually be called Tiflis in 1337 or is that the archaic Iranian name

 

[giorgi1999]

Shouldn't it actually be called Tiflis in 1337 or is that the archaic Iranian name

Well the georgian name is Tbilisi.
But the old version of that was T'philisi.
That's why in most foreign languages it's something like Tiflis.
Not sure when the transition happened though.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

There's literally 1 city in the entirety of Georgia.

Let's hope this is very, very WiP.

 

[giorgi1999]

There's literally 1 city in the entirety of Georgia.

Let's hope this is very, very WiP.

Yeah I saw that too.
But considering how Poland, Hungary and others look, this is probably quite WIP.

I'd imagine Kutaisi being a town.
One town in Kakheti too.
And 1-2 in the south-west too.

That's me being conservative.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

Yeah I saw that too.
But considering how Poland, Hungary and others look, this is probably quite WIP.

I'd imagine Kutaisi being a town.
One town in Kakheti too.
And 1-2 in the south-west too.

That's me being conservative.

You being evidently very knowledgeable about Georgia really should compile all the cities and towns of the era for feedback
Not trying to force you to do anything but you're the best man for the job

 

[giorgi1999]

You being evidently very knowledgeable about Georgia really should compile all the cities and towns of the era for feedback
Not trying to force you to do anything but you're the best man for the job

You're over exaggerating my abilities tbh.

Issue is, there were almost enough urban settlements to turn most of the locations in Georgia into towns, especially in the eastern part.

Not sure by which metric I should decide what location gets to have a town abd what doesn't.
Especially when I don't know what paradox thinks about this matter themselves.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

You're over exaggerating my abilities tbh.

Issue is, there were almost enough urban settlements to turn most of the locations in Georgia into towns, especially in the eastern part.

Not sure by which metric I should decide what location gets to have a town abd what doesn't.
Especially when I don't know what paradox thinks about this matter themselves.

According to the population maps we've seen, ~40,000 pops constitute a more or less densly populated location (for a town) in western Eurasia. Anything higher than that is usually a city

 

[nyetflix2]

I would prefer to call the Iranian culture Azeri and the Turkic one Azeri Turkish, à la "German Silesian". Azeri is actually already spelled as Adhari in the Perso-Arabic script, so they're effectively the same name. And I believe Turkish or Turki was a very common way to refer to the people we know as Azerbaijanis in modern times.