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Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.), but for the sake of simplicity, we decided to name this DD this. Let’s start, without further ado!

Countries:
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The region is quite interesting in 1337, as there are plenty of countries to play with. The Ilkhanate is still alive, but in name only, the real power being hosted by the Jalayirids, who are overlords of some of their neighbors (the Chobanids, and the Eretnids). Other countries, such as Gurgan, the Kartids, and Muzaffarids are also struggling to get the hegemony over the region. Meanwhile, the strongest power in the Caucasus is the Kingdom of Georgia, although the region is also quite fragmented among different polities.

Ilkhanate.png

And speaking of the Ilkhanate, you may have wondered why isn’t it a unified tag… Well, it’s because we consider that it is clearly in decadence, having lost any grasp of authority over the provinces, so the best way of portraying it is through an International Organization. What we can see in this mapmode is that there are two pretenders to get the power, the Jalayarids and Gurgan, with the other countries still being formally part of it. I won’t talk more today about how it works and its features, but I’ll just say that there are two clear fates for the Ilkhanate: being dissolved, as historically happened, or being restored in full power as a unified country.

Dynasties:
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Not much to say today about the dynasties, as they’re akin to the country names, in most cases. Well, you might wonder which one is the yellow one, ruling over Gurgan… That country is ruled by the Borgijin, heirs of Genghis Khan. Now you get the full picture of their rule over the Ilkhanate being challenged by the Jalayirids, I think…

Locations:
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Provinces:
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Areas:
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Terrain:
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We’re back to a region with lots of different climates, topography, and vegetation. This will make it very unique, gameplay and looking-wise.

Harbors:
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You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.

Cultures:
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There's quite a lot of cultural division throughout the region... The Caucasus is, well, the Caucasus, divided among lots of different people. Then we have the Iraqi and Kurdish in Iraq, Persian and a number of other cultures in Iran, Baloch in Balochistan, Afghan in Afghanistan, and Khorasani, Turkmen, Khorezm, Hazara, and Tajiks, among others, in Khorasan and Transoxiana.

Religions:
Religion.png

Another interesting religious situation. Orthodox is the main religion in Georgia, and Miaphysitism in Armenia, with other confessions spread here and there throughout the Caucasus (Khabzeism, and three 'Pagan' confessions, Karachay-Balkar, Vainakh, and Lezgin). Then Iraq is divided among Sunni, to the north, and Shiism, to the south. And Iran is in an interesting situation, having a Sunni majority, but with some important Shiite pockets here and there. And Zoroastrianism, of course. It was not trivial to properly portray them, as we don't have good data for the 14th century. So what we did was some calculations, between sources that tell that there was still a majority as late as the 11th century, and the religion becoming severely reduced by the 16th century. Therefore, we decided to go with 20% of the population as a general rule of thumb; however, we're quite open to feedback over this matter.

Raw Materials:
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This region is full of rich resources, in stark contrast to the one we showed last week, Arabia. There are a couple of bugs on this mapmode that you might spot, I think.

Markets:
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This region has several markets: Tabriz, Baghdad, Esfahan, Hormuz, Nishapur, and Zaranj., This will make for regionally fragmented-but-integrated economies (that is, good market access everyhwere, but with regionally diverging economies).

Population:
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The total population of the region is around 9M, taking into account all the different areas that we’re showing today. That is divided into about 4.5M in Iran, 2M in Iraq, 1.5M in the Caucasus, and around 1.5M in Transoxiana.

And that’s all for today! Next Friday we will be taking a look at India! Yes, in its entirety; we think that it is the best way to do it, although we’ll talk more about it next week. Another change, only for next week: the DD will be published at 10:00 instead of the regular 15:00, as I won’t be available in the afternoon to reply. Letting you know so there’s a proper wow-pole-run, yes. See you!
 

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Btw according to these maps the Tao country controls Panaskerti which if you give it to Tao then Samsthke loses border access to Oltu which looks weird and wrong according to the maps so either devs should change the borders of Panaskerti location and/or nearby wastelands; or renaming Panaskerti to something else needed in my opinion.
I think it would make more sense to just give all of that territory to Samtskhe.

No need for being so pedantic and nity-gritty.
Samtskhe incorporated that area anyway, as far as I understand.
 
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The Principality of Amatuni should definitely be called Artaz.

https://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D4%B1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D5%BF%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B6%D5%AB%D5%B6%D5 %A5%D6%80
This family ruled yet another principality - Hamshen (Hamamshen).

View attachment 1189271

The Principality of Proshyids should definitely be called Vayots Dzor.
View attachment 1189286

The Principality of the Vachutids should definitely be called Amberd
This region took its name from the destroyed city of Amberd.

View attachment 1189300

View attachment 1189303
This region took its name from the destroyed city of Amberd.

Could you show on the locations map where Hamshen is?
 
I'm not really familiar when it comes to Armenia proper.
But it can be argued that Samtskhe should have a location or two, like Kars.

I'm also not sure why you expanded Georgia into Shirvan.
mm....by sources it is like that?....
I also dont know why incorporated shaki here in Georgia,maybe found some source.
And personally I wouldn't separate those armenian majority bits in the south of Georgia into separate vassals.

No actual expert here, but those regions I think just had a separate cultural majority, but didn't have any extra autonomy compared to other nobles, aside from Samtskhe of course.
You talk about Avanian and Vahramian here? by this sources they are vassal of Zakarids.
 
I think it would make more sense to just give all of that territory to Samtskhe.

No need for being so pedantic and nity-gritty.
Samtskhe incorporated that area anyway, as far as I understand.
Personally I'm in the camp to just give that territory to Georgia proper rather than having another Georgian subject, and eventually Georgia will just wind up ceding that territory over.

I don't know how many other duchies existed in the Kingdom of Georgia at this time and how much autonomy each of them had, but my inclination after a quick perusal of the history is that if you're gonna bother with one duchy, you might as well balkanize the whole kingdom, in which case you might as well balkanize every feudal kingdom in the world. Probably better to just represent them with the noble estate, and some characters representing the various Georgian dynasties.
 
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Personally I'm in the camp to just give that territory to Georgia proper rather than having another Georgian subject, and eventually Georgia will just wind up ceding that territory over.

I don't know how many other duchies existed in the Kingdom of Georgia at this time and how much autonomy each of them had, but my inclination after a quick perusal of the history is that if you're gonna bother with one duchy, you might as well balkanize the whole kingdom, in which case you might as well balkanize every feudal kingdom in the world. Probably better to just represent them with the noble estate, and some characters representing the various Georgian dynasties.
But were't Samtskhe extensively powerful vassal? And cause of border vassals,time to times they defected to enemy....
 
Personally I'm in the camp to just give that territory to Georgia proper rather than having another Georgian subject, and eventually Georgia will just wind up ceding that territory over.

I don't know how many other duchies existed in the Kingdom of Georgia at this time and how much autonomy each of them had, but my inclination after a quick perusal of the history is that if you're gonna bother with one duchy, you might as well balkanize the whole kingdom, in which case you might as well balkanize every feudal kingdom in the world. Probably better to just represent them with the noble estate, and some characters representing the various Georgian dynasties.

In cases like this, where there is some truth to their existence, but whether they should or shouldn't be added, I'm just going to leave the option there, so Paradox knows about it. Whether they implement it or not will be up to them.
 
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mm....by sources it is like that?....
I also dont know why incorporated shaki here in Georgia,maybe found some source.

You talk about Avanian and Vahramian here? by this sources they are vassal of Zakarids.
According to some yeah. But this whole topic of exact borders at this specific time is murky.

Can you send me some?

My reasoning is based on the fact that those areas stayed under georgian suzerainty even after the dissolution of the kingdom into smaller states.
Specifically those were under the kingdom of Kartli, for centuries.
It would make more sense to make them vassals if we were dealing with a time period when the dissolution already happened.
 
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Personally I'm in the camp to just give that territory to Georgia proper rather than having another Georgian subject, and eventually Georgia will just wind up ceding that territory over.

I don't know how many other duchies existed in the Kingdom of Georgia at this time and how much autonomy each of them had, but my inclination after a quick perusal of the history is that if you're gonna bother with one duchy, you might as well balkanize the whole kingdom, in which case you might as well balkanize every feudal kingdom in the world. Probably better to just represent them with the noble estate, and some characters representing the various Georgian dynasties.
I just think it'll look cleaner to just give it Samtskhe.

And I can't imagine the Georgian court to have much direct control over territory that's surrounded by a larger more autonomous vassal.

It probably depended a lot on the opinions of the individual local nobles, at a given time.
 
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But were't Samtskhe extensively powerful vassal? And cause of border vassals,time to times they defected to enemy....
It varied a lot.

The post mongol invasion Georgia was marred with internal tensions and divisions, which finally concluded with the dissolution.

But at this specific date, the king ruling Georgia was very competent it seems.
Consolidating the kingdom almost to the levels of before the mongols.

He's grandfather was the atabeg of Samtskhe and he was raised at his court.
 
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According to some yeah. But this whole topic of exact borders at this specific time is murky.

Can you send me some?

My reasoning is based on the fact that those areas stayed under georgian suzerainty even after the dissolution of the kingdom into smaller states.
Specifically those were under the kingdom of Kartli, for centuries.
It would make more sense to make them vassals if we were dealing with a time period when the dissolution already happened.
mm,Superlexxe and Aramenian presented some sources,i added that since they are armenian,probably they preferred armenian suzerainty over georgian.
Seems logical to me.
But i dont know,also here mentioned,that Zakarids call themselves kings of Ani,which may refer to other claims....
 
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Turkish sources are famously unbiased, especially regarding Armenia.
What? We are talking about 1300s Caucasusian region history, which revolves around Georgian, Armenian, Ilkhanate. Not about Ottoman and Armenian politics in 1910s. I also look Georgian, Armenian and English sources too, many of them agrees with the current setup. There is many sources in Turkish because the part of the region is under Turkey and the other part is neigbour of Turkey and has a history under Turks. So many master, phd students and later professors writes about it, which is the my main sources (theses).

An ignorant and absurd comment.
 
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What? We are talking about 1300s Caucasusian region history, which revolves around Georgian, Armenian, Ilkhanate. Not about Ottoman and Armenian politics in 1910s. I also look Georgian, Armenian and English sources too, many of them agrees with the current setup. There is many sources in Turkish because the part of the region is under Turkey and the other part is neigbour of Turkey and has a history under Turks. So many master, phd students and later professors writes about it, which is the my main sources (theses).

An ignorant and absurd comment.
Cool off guys, no need to get aggressive over such things.
 
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According to some yeah. But this whole topic of exact borders at this specific time is murky.

Can you send me some?

My reasoning is based on the fact that those areas stayed under georgian suzerainty even after the dissolution of the kingdom into smaller states.
Specifically those were under the kingdom of Kartli, for centuries.
It would make more sense to make them vassals if we were dealing with a time period when the dissolution already happened.
I mean the fact that they were important after the dissolution of Georgia, and already existed at the start date, really makes me feel like the simplest way to represent them is to have them exist at the start date.

There's a parallel to be drawn with France, which I'm pretty sure has different "levels" of vassals from more autonomous to less autonomous. People would complain a lot if all of the vassals weren't in the game even though most of them were really not very autonomous and they occupy a lot of France's territory. This case feels similar.
 
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Cool off guys, no need to get aggressive over such things.
Nah I'm cool, it just an absurd comment. Even my suggestions approves that Kars is under Armenians which some other sources says its under Georgia-Samstke. What is the meaning of that comment? I'm not giving citations from nationalistic sources lol. Its from academic researches. If he have an objection to some information, then object to that thing with your sources.