Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

[TomislavAddai]

The city of Tikrit in Iraq should be of Syriac culture and Miaphysite religion:
e Christian community received a setback when the governor ordered the destruction of the main cathedral known popularly as the "Green Church" in 1089. The maphrian and some of the Christians of Tikrit had to relocate to the Mor Mattai Monastery, where a village named Merki was established in the valley below the monastery. A later governor permitted the reconstruction of the cathedral. However, instability returned and the maphrian moved indefinitely to Mosul in 1156.[12]

Regardless, the city remained an important center of the Syriac Orthodox Church until its destruction by Timur in the late 14th century. A Christian presence has not existed in the city since the 17th century. (Source: Wikipedia article on Tikrit)

Also worth inspecting: Nestorian and Jewish presence in Radhan, also the team did a good job at portraying the Nestorian community in Kirkuk.

There were perhaps twenty East Syriac dioceses in Media, Tabaristan, Khorasan and Segestan at the end of the 9th century, only one of which (Tus in Khorasan) survived into the 13th century.see here

Also, there may be likely Nestorian presence in Tabriz, Hamadan, Sultaniyye, Maragha and Nakhichevan (see here).

Dont forget Christian presence in Merv

 

[Sulphurologist]

Hey.
Well dude I think you based most of what you said only on looking at maps of places you've never been to.
Nothing wrong with that per se, but it seems some of your interpretations were quite a bit off.

There are no ridges, at least on the east of Khornabuji.
If anything, that line you drew matched the river not the ridge.
Khornabuji is itself a castle on the ridge and if you think that is enough to add this ridge crossing penalty to it, then most of Georgia needs ridge crossings.

The Gori location might not line up completely correctly, but it is obviously there to represent the inner kartlian plain.
It is flatlands. Yes, it isn't very flat, it has kind of a rolling hills vibe in some places, but in terms of the game, it definitely should be flatlands, most probably with farmlands too.

Plateaus usually are used for quite high places and having Javakheti and inner Kartli both be plateaus makes no sense.
One is a cold grassy plain where trees barely live and the biggest agricultural product is the potato, while the other is the fruit garden of Georgia, lush with vegetation.
Oh and the Javakheti plateau is on average 1000-1500m higher than the inner Kartlian plain.
Both being plateaus makes no sense.

Ok here, I think, it really shows that you are unfamiliar with the area, because you got it straight up wrong.
The left one is the Roki pass,not the Darial pass, that's the middle one.

The Jvari pass is actually the pass you have to go over first to reach the Darial pass.
Jvari pass is the actual mountain pass technically, while the Darial pass is a tight river valley/gorge that then leads to the north caucasian plain.

And Datvisjvari pass is another pass connecting the south and north Caucasus, but in practice it's a connecting point between two subregions of one of Georgia's ethnographical regions, Khevsureti.

Datvisjvari is also in the game and you also closed it, I just didn't comment on it.

Regarding sending armies through the Datvisjvari and Abano passes, yeah you're kinda right.
But we do have accounts of raiding bands using them.

View attachment 1201228
Here, red is roki, green is Datvisjvari with those subregions I mentioned and the blues are Jvari and Darial, Jvari being the southern one and Darial being the northern one.
You can see how they lie on the same road.

And regarding closing the Abano pass.
If we do that, then a single location that should be under Georgia, will be isolated and inaccessible to Georgia and I'm not sure if that is correct.
And we have accounts of forces from dagestan crossing over to Georgia in pretty sizeable numbers.
They actually most probably used even tougher passes, which aren't even shown in the current game.

Let's keep it civil. I think gatekeeping "you should have been there" is a tad unfair when discussing continental-scale topography Note that I'm a geologist with a thorough understanding of geomorphology, so I assure you I can interpret these maps with the nuance it deserves.

Note that that plateau classification for an inhabitant of Georgia is radically different than those for India, Iberia, Tibet... The Deccan plateau is more often than not about 500-700 metres high, while the Tibetan plateau is over 4000 metres. Tinto treats them all the same. So far Tinto has applied the 500 metre rule pretty much everywhere though, which is why I suggested it for Gori as well (in addition to its elevated valley position, flanked by a mountain ridge). I also think that discussions of temperature and vegetation should apply to their respective vegetation and climate map modes, instead of topography. I think a grassland plateau vs woodland plateau is a fair distinction.

Considering the 'river ridges', they indicate these: (use terrain map mode for best effect). https://maps.app.goo.gl/yKsQ74RP67gmaCRf7
If you compare it to the previous maps I shared, you'll notice I didn't misplace them. Their ruggedness is significant enough to warrant their appearance as a crossing (btw so far there is no sign whatsoever that these crossing would make it into the game).

I indeed whoopsied the Darial gorge, my apologies. The Roki pass wasn't labled on the physical geographical map of Georgia, which made me draw the wrong conclusion.
That said, opening all of these passes for the game's armies feels excessive. Crossing the Caucasus really shouldn't be a trivial thing to do in this time frame, don't you think?

 

[Georgian Noble]

Let's keep it civil. I think gatekeeping "you should have been there" is a tad unfair when discussing continental-scale topography Note that I'm a geologist with a thorough understanding of geomorphology, so I assure you I can interpret these maps with the nuance it deserves.

Note that that plateau classification for an inhabitant of Georgia is radically different than those for India, Iberia, Tibet... The Deccan plateau is more often than not about 500-700 metres high, while the Tibetan plateau is over 4000 metres. Tinto treats them all the same. So far Tinto has applied the 500 metre rule pretty much everywhere though, which is why I suggested it for Gori as well (in addition to its elevated valley position, flanked by a mountain ridge). I also think that discussions of temperature and vegetation should apply to their respective vegetation and climate map modes, instead of topography. I think a grassland plateau vs woodland plateau is a fair distinction.

Considering the 'river ridges', they indicate these: (use terrain map mode for best effect). https://maps.app.goo.gl/yKsQ74RP67gmaCRf7
If you compare it to the previous maps I shared, you'll notice I didn't misplace them. Their ruggedness is significant enough to warrant their appearance as a crossing (btw so far there is no sign whatsoever that these crossing would make it into the game).

I indeed whoopsied the Darial gorge, my apologies. The Roki pass wasn't labled on the physical geographical map of Georgia, which made me draw the wrong conclusion.
That said, opening all of these passes for the game's armies feels excessive. Crossing the Caucasus really shouldn't be a trivial thing to do in this time frame, don't you think?

Why did you get so defensive and passively aggressive all of the sudden lol. Just like arguing with westerner redditor lmao

 

[giorgi1999]

Let's keep it civil. I think gatekeeping "you should have been there" is a tad unfair when discussing continental-scale topography Note that I'm a geologist with a thorough understanding of geomorphology, so I assure you I can interpret these maps with the nuance it deserves.

Dude you misunderstand.
I'm not gatekeeping anything.
I would expect similar errors from anyone, including myself in a similar situation.

Note that that plateau classification for an inhabitant of Georgia is radically different than those for India, Iberia, Tibet... The Deccan plateau is more often than not about 500-700 metres high, while the Tibetan plateau is over 4000 metres. Tinto treats them all the same. So far Tinto has applied the 500 metre rule pretty much everywhere though, which is why I suggested it for Gori as well (in addition to its elevated valley position, flanked by a mountain ridge). I also think that discussions of temperature and vegetation should apply to their respective vegetation and climate map modes, instead of topography. I think a grassland plateau vs woodland plateau is a fair distinction.

I expect the game to give debuffs for developement and similar attributes to locations with plateau terrain.
Similarly how in eu4 you get debuffs for mountains and hills.
The inner Kartlian plain was always one of the most developed areas in Georgia, specifically because of it's geographic characteristics.
So again, putting it and the cold Javakheti plateau in the same bin, does not sit right with me.
Especially when they have the same continental climate in the game.

Considering the 'river ridges', they indicate these: (use terrain map mode for best effect). https://maps.app.goo.gl/yKsQ74RP67gmaCRf7
If you compare it to the previous maps I shared, you'll notice I didn't misplace them. Their ruggedness is significant enough to warrant their appearance as a crossing (btw so far there is no sign whatsoever that these crossing would make it into the game).

I'll say it again, if we add ridge crossing/smaller mountain range crossing penalties, then we should add them to even more places.

I indeed whoopsied the Darial gorge, my apologies. The Roki pass wasn't labled on the physical geographical map of Georgia, which made me draw the wrong conclusion.
That said, opening all of these passes for the game's armies feels excessive. Crossing the Caucasus really shouldn't be a trivial thing to do in this time frame, don't you think?

That's why I think adding uncolonizable mountain passes, that give significant penalties would make sense for most of these.
We know people used them, but depending on your army size, it should limit travelability by imposing heavier penalties.
If this is done, I might even argue for adding one or two more such passes.

 

[Georgian Noble]

Dude you misunderstand.
I'm not gatekeeping anything.
I would expect similar errors from anyone, including myself in a similar situation.

I expect the game to give debuffs for developement and similar attributes to locations with plateau terrain.
Similarly how in eu4 you get debuffs for mountains and hills.
The inner Kartlian plain was always one of the most developed areas in Georgia, specifically because of it's geographic characteristics.
So again, putting it and the cold Javakheti plateau in the same bin, does not sit right with me.
Especially when they have the same continental climate in the game.

I'll say it again, if we add ridge crossing/smaller mountain range crossing penalties, then we should add them to even more places.

That's why I think adding uncolonizable mountain passes, that give significant penalties would make sense for most of these.
We know people used them, but depending on your army size, it should limit travelability by imposing heavier penalties.
If this is done, I might even argue for adding one or two more such passes.

Chad

 

[giorgi1999]

I'll give u answers on every of those questions, but because I'm compiling sources, that I've used for my critiques right now. So I can just give you a brief overview for now. (I don't know how quote-answer here, so I'll try numeration)

you first put your cursor on the part you want to cut off and then you push ENTER(might need to click it twice if you are not already at the end of the line).

It will automatically cut of that part of the quote.

I don't think Apsilae have anything to do with XIV century Kodori gorge but I'll explain anyways haha. Apsilae is just a Greek translation, god knows what their original name was. What we do know though is that: firstly, to the East of them lived "Sanigs" and to the north of them "Misimians". Most of ethnologists are united around the consensus, that both of them are ether Svans, or close relatives. San-igs, San -Svan. Misimian - Mushuan (meaning Svan in Svan language). So how exactly did Abkhazo-Adyghean speakers got sandwiched between two Svan speaking peoples? Secondly, Apsilae and Misimians spoke the same language, which, than again, says that those guys were probably not Abkhazians, they were ether Zans or Svans, personally I lean towards them being Svans, so called "Soano-Colchs" by Strabo. Finally, there are people to the east of Sanigs "Abasgoi" that are actually the perfect candidate for being Abkhazians.

I'm not sure how much we should rely on such vague old sources, especially when it comes to them describing the languages of the different tribes.
Also completely different language groups getting sandwiched isn't something unheard of at all, might be possible.
I mean, even to this day, the Abkhaz are kinda split in two, geographically.
I'm not sure how much you believe this, but there are some signs of Abkhazo-Adyghean toponyms in around Adjara too.

Abasgoi living east of the Sanigs? Did you mean west?

1. Did they not end up in every other language from Svan though? There is no other name of the town of Tskhumi that have ever been mentioned earlier

Maybe

It's generally agreed between Georgian and unbiased foreign ethnologists and historians that before XVI century Georgian-Abkhazian ethnic borders were somewhere between Gumista-Kelasuri-Kodori rivers. Kodori is the westernmost Abkhazians could have lived at the time.

You mean easternmost, no?

Arcangelo Lamberti, XVII century Italian missionary, states that beyond river Kodori Mingrelian is changed with Abkhazian, like beyond Rioni Georgian is changed with Mingrelian and this is in mid-XVII century mind you, before that Abkhazians would've lived even more to the east.

Again I think you meant to say west here.

Also, there are literally family names that could remember their ancestors being from Dali gorge, like Gvaramians.

That might be a reliable source or might not be.

Ruins and toponyms are not the best evidence, but they are the evidence still, when we consider that there are no evidence of Abkhazians being there before XVI-XVII centuries ether, the hypothesis of Svans being there, become more and more realistic. As I've established earlier, there is no chance of Abkhazians living past Kodori. There are three versions who could have lived there: Svans, Mingrelians or no one. There are documented abandoned villages with tower structures which means that people lived there. There are practically no Mingrelian toponyms in upper parts of Kodori gorge (Dali gorge), only Svan ones. In lower parts of Kodori gorge (Tsebelda, Lata) there is a mix between mostly Svan and Mingrelian and couple of Abkhaz toponyms as well. Abkhaz ones are 100% later ones. Therefore, I think that Upper Lata at the time would probably be Svan, while lower one would be mixed between Svans and Mingrelians.

No if there are ruins of Svan towers in Kodori, that basically seals the deal for me. I just need to see the evidence of those ruins before I believe they exist.

P.S. I went through the files of Abkhaz muhajirun (Muslims that migrated to Ottoman empire in XVIII century) from Tsebelda and they have Same surnames as Abkhazians living in, what's now, Gudauta municipality, at the time, which also means that Abkhazians migrated to Kodori gorge from there.

That isn't conclusive evidence of a migration, but yes it might be evidence of it.

I don't know if there is even one person on this planet that is fluent in both Abkhaz and Svan. Even if there was, there is no need, as those toponyms have been deciphered many time already, ask any Svan that is from Kodori and they'll agree.

Technically the third party doesn't need to be an expert at these languages specifically.
As long as they are a professional linguist and get acquainted with the distinguishing features of these languages, they should be able to be a good judge.

Even if you don't know ether Georgian, Svan, Mingrelian, Abkhaz, Adyghe or Russian, you can still tell place names apart. Like - Abkhaz toponyms are: Amazhta(ამჟთა), Akhista(ახისთა), Bzhou(ბჟოუ), Adzibzhara(აჟიბჟარა), Pshu(ფსჰუ), Aibga(აიბგა) ets. Mingrelian ones: Jikhashkari(ჯიხაშკარი), Amtkeli(ამტყელი), Ontipuri(ონთიფური), Tsebeli(წებელი), Otoronjia(ოტორონჯია), Tskalba(წყალბა), Baghmarani(ბაღმარანი), Omarishara(ომარიშარა) Ets. Svan ones: Lata(ლათა), Tsebelda(წებელდა), Getvishi(გენწვიში), Budzguri(ბუძრური), Ptishi(პტიში), Tvibrasheri(ტვიბრაშერი), Gutia(გუტია), Chkhalta(ჩხალთა), Sakeni(საკენი), Kvapchkara(ქვაფჩარა), Buchukuri(ბუჩუყური) Ets. I'm not a linguistics expert but I can easily tell those apart, only Abkhaz-like name I could find in Dali gorge is Atsagara(აცაგარა) - but even this one can be explained in Svan, as Tsagar means - spiky place, like Tsageri the center of Lechkhumi. Tsag means Spike is Svan, ar/er-is a suffix wich gives the base of the word meaning of "place". Therefore, you can break down village name in three parts A-Tsag-ar, this A in the beginning is probably added after Abkhazians migrated here after Svans. Even I, a guy who has no knowledge of Svan, could decipher it lol. Also I can give you few Georgian, Svan and Mingrelian location names in Lechkhumi for better comparison. Georgian: Bardnala(ბარდნალა), Usakhelo(უსახელო), Lekhidristavi(ლეხიდრისთავი), Sairme(საირმე), Spatagori(სპათაგორი), Vanischala(ვანისჭალა),Lashchala(ლაშჭალა), Tkhizurga(თხიზურგა). Svan: Tsageri(ცაგერი), Kulbaki(ქულბაქი), Orbeli(ორბელი), Leshkashi(ლეშკაში), Lajana(ლაჯანა), Tvishi(ტვიში), Latsoria(ლაცორია), Leshkeda(ლეშკედა), Leshuana(ლეშუანა), Dekhviri(დეხვირი), Surmushi(სურმუში), Kvishari(ქვიშარი), Lailashi(ლაილაში) ets. Mingrelian: Opitara(ოფიტარა), Chkumi(ჩქუმი), Gagulechi(გაგულეჩი), khoji(ხოჯი), ochoneshi(ოჭნეში), khomli(ხომლი), okureshi(ოყურეში) ets.

Ok, to a level, I agree with you. You might be 100% right here.
I have also made similar observations many times.
But at the same time, I really don't like the attitude of "even I can tell the difference, and I'm no expert".
That sort of attitude might be a big trap, reinforced preconceived conceptions.
I might go and contact a linguist or two and see if I can steal some of their time away.

I mostly try to use unbiased sources as on one side, there are, Abkhaz ethno-nationalist chauvinistic, so called, "historians" like Shalva Inal-Ipa and his kinda sell-out historians mostly from Russia and Armenia who agree with him and other Abkhazian "historians" that think that Abkhazians lived all around whole West Georgia, "Colchis" and "Lazica" were Abkhaz-Adyghean civilizations, until evil Georgians spawned Mingrelians and Svans outta thin air and kicked them into mountains hahaha, on the other hand, you have Georgian nationalist "professors" that transferred Georgian historiography into, Armenocentrist-alike, fantasy genre haha, sadly this deep stain is still felt on Georgian historiography, as all adequate scientists were murdered by communists in 1937. Those who remained were members of Pavle Ingorokva and Simon Janashia schools that argued things like : O.G. Abkhazians being actually Georgians or modern-day ethnic Abkhazians arriving form Circassia in XVIII century and so on. I even read a paper that argued the stupidest things ever, about how because of the names of plants or something, Abkhazians didn't actually exist hahaha, this is probably one of the most hilarious thing I've ever read on pars with Jesus being Armenian and Yakub inventing White people. here is a link if you wanna read it: https://www.amsi.ge/istoria/div/VIVAT_HISTORIA.pdf

Yeah it's a fucking shitshow.
There are still history professors in Georgian universities, repeating Ingorokva's conspiracy theories.
And recently saw a video of an old Abkhaz historian saying that Kartvelians arrived in the Caucasus as a result of Anatolian populations fleeing from the Mithridatic wars.

P.S. Thanks for your attention and feedback!

No thank you!

 

[Sulphurologist]

Dude you misunderstand.
I'm not gatekeeping anything.
I would expect similar errors from anyone, including myself in a similar situation.

All good man, I misread your tone and by trying to de-escalate I made it sound worse than I intended, I really appreciate this back-and-forth on the topic!

I expect the game to give debuffs for developement and similar attributes to locations with plateau terrain.
Similarly how in eu4 you get debuffs for mountains and hills.
The inner Kartlian plain was always one of the most developed areas in Georgia, specifically because of it's geographic characteristics.
So again, putting it and the cold Javakheti plateau in the same bin, does not sit right with me.
Especially when they have the same continental climate in the game.

I hope they won't debuff plateau too much in that regard, because plateaus are more of a logistical hindrance than for habitation.
Köppen 1901-1930 classes both into the continental category (admittedly, Gori being closer to the subtropical spectrum, and Akhaltsikhe towards the boreal spectrum).
Gori is Subtropical today in the 1991-2020 Köppen map, so I get your point.

I'll update my map with it being hashed flatlands/plateau, because I think we'll have to agree to disagree (Brittanica backs me up in my claim, undoubtedly the best resource in the history of man /s). The elevation of the valley near Gori is between 600 and 750 metres, well over 500 metres, which is why I find it so hard to let go.
Considering your description though, farmlands vegetation for Gori seems like a must? Farmlands plateau vs woodland plateau will alleviate a lot of your concerns on its inherent potential, and the development for Gori should be relatively high, too.

I'll say it again, if we add ridge crossing/smaller mountain range crossing penalties, then we should add them to even more places.

That's why I think adding uncolonizable mountain passes, that give significant penalties would make sense for most of these.
We know people used them, but depending on your army size, it should limit travelability by imposing heavier penalties.
If this is done, I might even argue for adding one or two more such passes.

I only indicate these ridges if they separate two locations of lower topographic class. I also only indicate them if they are big enough to truely run along the entire border of that location.
E.g.: flatlands-flatlands with hills in between = ridge.
hills-hills with mountains in between = ridge.
plateau-hills with hills in between = no ridge

Now that I'm on desktop with better control, I really think they're not that insignificant, roads seem really constricted there.

That said I noticed I forgot some in northern Persia, will update again!

 

[Georgian Noble]

View attachment 1201447
you first put your cursor on the part you want to cut off and then you push ENTER(might need to click it twice if you are not already at the end of the line).

View attachment 1201452
It will automatically cut of that part of the quote.

haha did that, thank you so much!

I'm not sure how much we should rely on such vague old sources, especially when it comes to them describing the languages of the different tribes.
Also completely different language groups getting sandwiched isn't something unheard of at all, might be possible.
I mean, even to this day, the Abkhaz are kinda split in two, geographically.
I'm not sure how much you believe this, but there are some signs of Abkhazo-Adyghean toponyms in around Adjara too.

Yeah, to me they don't really matter, they are interesting, but they have little to do with ethnography of XIV century Abkhazia

Abasgoi living east of the Sanigs? Did you mean west?

Yeah, idk why but I mixed up East and West between each other

Maybe

In Abkhaz Sokhumi is "Aqwa" which means "water" in Latin lol. I refuse to believe Abkhazians would give a newly found town a Latin name

You mean easternmost, no?

Yeah, I might be a bit stupid u know

Again I think you meant to say west here.

exactly, I've edited those mistakes out already

That might be a reliable source or might not be.

Yeah, but at least it's something

No if there are ruins of Svan towers in Kodori, that basically seals the deal for me. I just need to see the evidence of those ruins before I believe they exist.

Sadly there is no way of us traveling there, but if we did, there is no guarantee that those towers are not demolished at this point

That isn't conclusive evidence of a migration, but yes it might be evidence of it.

Yeah, I think the same

Technically the third party doesn't need to be an expert at these languages specifically.
As long as they are a professional linguist and get acquainted with the distinguishing features of these languages, they should be able to be a good judge.

are there even people like that?

Ok, to a level, I agree with you. You might be 100% right here.
I have also made similar observations many times.
But at the same time, I really don't like the attitude of "even I can tell the difference, and I'm no expert".
That sort of attitude might be a big trap, reinforced preconceived conceptions.
I might go and contact a linguist or two and see if I can steal some of their time away.

It would be amazing if you could contact someone in that field

Yeah it's a fucking shitshow.
There are still history professors in Georgian universities, repeating Ingorokva's conspiracy theories.
And recently saw a video of an old Abkhaz historian saying that Kartvelians arrived in the Caucasus as a result of Anatolian populations fleeing from the Mithridatic wars.

haha, what a circle jerk

No thank you!

My pleasure

 

[GenericUsername1444]

I think Georgia could use some flavour in terms of its start.

• I think in-game Georgia should start with an alliance with the Mamluks. According to our sources he had an alliance or at least a defensive pact with Egypt at the time;
• Highland locations will naturally have low control but it'd be nice if it were balanced out by the local "Dzeglisdeba" modifier (in the appropriate locations);
• In general Orthodox countries should seek Latin support around this time as the centre of Orthodoxy and key power of the region, Byzantium, will soon be ecliped by the Ottomans.

Spoiler

@giorgi1999 @Georgian Noble

 

[Georgian Noble]

I think Georgia could use some flavour in terms of its start.

• I think in-game Georgia start with an alliance with the Mamluks. According to our sources he had an alliance or at least a defensive pact with Egypt at the time;

yeap, would be great possibility, both are natural enemies to Ilkhanids

• Highland locations will naturally have low control but it'd be nice if it were balanced out by the local "Dzeglisdeba" modifier (in the appropriate locations);

good idea, it would be also nice if there was a chain of events that would cause Georgia to break up

• In general Orthodox countries should seek Latin support around this time as the centre of Orthodoxy and key power of the region, Byzantium, will soon be ecliped by the Ottomans.

Idk how that could possibly be implemented into the game

Spoiler

@giorgi1999 @Georgian Noble

 

[GenericUsername1444]

yeap, would be great possibility, both are natural enemies to Ilkhanids

good idea, it would be also nice if there was a chain of events that would cause Georgia to break up

Idk how that could possibly be implemented into the game

To add to that, I still remember my history classes for the national exams, and can recall that the weakening of Byzantium led to the move of the Latin centre of Catholicism in the east from Smyrna to Tbilisi, so that could also be interesting, I think.

 

[Georgian Noble]

To add to that, I still remember my history classes for the national exams, and can recall that the weakening of Byzantium led to the move of the Latin centre of Catholicism in the east from Smyrna to Tbilisi, so that could also be interesting, I think.

Idk how would there be such a thing as a center of Catholicism in Eu5 tbh

 

[GenericUsername1444]

Idk how would there be such a thing as a center of Catholicism in Eu5 tbh

International Organisations. On the surface, the Catholic Church and the national Orthodox Church will have overlapping jurisdictions, but in reality conversions will be minimal and the churches will really serve for the Latin merchants from the Black Sea

 

[giorgi1999]

In Abkhaz Sokhumi is "Aqwa" which means "water" in Latin lol. I refuse to believe Abkhazians would give a newly found town a Latin name

I don't think it's a Latin name at all.
Pretty sure it's just a linguistic coincidence.

Sadly there is no way of us traveling there, but if we did, there is no guarantee that those towers are not demolished at this point

If there ever were any, it is possible to find them.
No amount of demolishing leaves no obvious marks.

are there even people like that?

Yep

It would be amazing if you could contact someone in that field

I'll try, but those people are busy with actual work you know.
Not everyone is so enthusiastic to answer all the rando questions from randos.
Especially when often those are overly nationalistic blokes who practically cuss them out for stating basic scientific fact.

BTW, do you know anything about the amount of maritime related vocabulary in Svan?

 

[giorgi1999]

All good man, I misread your tone and by trying to de-escalate I made it sound worse than I intended, I really appreciate this back-and-forth on the topic!

No probs

I hope they won't debuff plateau too much in that regard, because plateaus are more of a logistical hindrance than for habitation.
Köppen 1901-1930 classes both into the continental category (admittedly, Gori being closer to the subtropical spectrum, and Akhaltsikhe towards the boreal spectrum).
Gori is Subtropical today in the 1991-2020 Köppen map, so I get your point.

I'll update my map with it being hashed flatlands/plateau, because I think we'll have to agree to disagree (Brittanica backs me up in my claim, undoubtedly the best resource in the history of man /s). The elevation of the valley near Gori is between 600 and 750 metres, well over 500 metres, which is why I find it so hard to let go.

I'm no expert in this, obviously.
But when I think of a plateau, I think of an elevated plain, which is more or less, higher than its surrounding regions.

Inner Kartlian plains don't really fit that idea of a plateau in my mind.
It has more of a bowl shape, with most neighboring regions being about the same elevation or higher, in case of Javakheti to its south-west.

But again, this is based on my colloquial notion of a plateau.

Considering your description though, farmlands vegetation for Gori seems like a must?

I would say it's definitely high priority.
But it depends on how many farmlands paradox is willing to add to begin with.
But it's definitely in the top 3 locations in Georgia that should be farmlands.

Farmlands plateau vs woodland plateau will alleviate a lot of your concerns on its inherent potential, and the development for Gori should be relatively high, too.

The Javakheti location should be grasslands plateau though.

I only indicate these ridges if they separate two locations of lower topographic class. I also only indicate them if they are big enough to truely run along the entire border of that location.
E.g.: flatlands-flatlands with hills in between = ridge.
hills-hills with mountains in between = ridge.
plateau-hills with hills in between = no ridge

Again, I could recommend other such crossings.
Or at least crossings that go over significant enough geographic features, that would translate into a crossing debuff.
Like the whole length of the Gombori chain, for example.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

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Anyone wanna have a look at this? I can't read Georgian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_(Ilkhanid_dynasty)

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I may be wrong, but I think there may've been a mistranslation here - according to the original text, Amirghambar I would have to be the ruler of Samtskhe, as he is the suzerain of the Eristavi of Tao. Either that or Botso is a minor lord within the Duchy and Amirghambar is an Eristavt-Eristavi (Duke of Dukes) of his.

Georgian feudalism is somehow even more complex than anything in western Europe.

According to the same source:

1335 წელს ყაენი აბუ-საიდი გარდაიცვალა და ტახტისთვის ბრძოლა მთელი ძალებით დაიწყო. მოკლე ხანში რამოდენიმე უდღეური ყაენი ავიდა ტახტზე, რამაც შემდგომ ერთიანი იმპერია ნაწილებად დაშალა. ბრძოლები გაჩაღდა სხვადასხვა გავლენიან ემირებს შორის, რომელთა შორისაც შეიხ ჰასან ჯალაირი ერთ-ერთი ყველაზე ძლიერი იყო. 1336 წლის 25 ივლისს კი, ვანის ტბის სიახლოვეს, ალადაღის მთიანეთში შეიხ-ჰასანის დაჯგუფებამ, გაანადგურა მეორე ბანაკის ჯარი, რომელსაც ემირი ალი ფადიშაჰი სარდლობდა. ჰასან ჯალაირის ავტორიტეტი და გავლენა დიდად გაიზარდა. ამ ბრძოლაში აქტიურად მონაწილეობდნენ ქართველებიც შეიხ ჰასანის მხარეს, ხოლო თავად ალი-ფადიშაჰი ქართული წყაროების ცნობით ქართველმა დიდებულმა - ბოცო წმედიძემ იგდო ტყვედ, რისთვისაც შეიხ ჰასანს დიდძალი საჩუქრები გადაუცია, ხოლო ტაოში დაბრუნებულს, ერისთავ ამირღამბარ ფანასკერტელს მისთვის და მისი შთამომავლობისთვის დიდი პატივი უცია.

(translation by me and Google): In 1335, Abu Sa'id Khan died, and the fight for the throne began. A number of short-lived Khans ascended to the throne, which caused the split of the empire into many fragments. Battles broke out between various influential emirs, among whom Sheikh Hassan Jalayir was one of the most powerful. On July 25, 1336, in the vicinity of Lake Van, in the Aladagh mountain range, Sheikh Hassan's group destroyed the army of the second camp commanded by Emir Ali Padishah. Hasan Jalayir's authority and influence increased greatly. Georgians also actively participated in this battle on the side of Sheikh Hassan, and according to Georgian sources, Ali-Padishah himself was taken prisoner by the Georgian nobleman Botso Tsmedidze, for which Sheikh Hassan showered him with gifts, and upon his return to Tao, Amirghambar of Panaskerti showed him and his descendants great respect.

Edit: in various Georgian sources, it's stated that Giorgi V not only gained de jure and de facto independence from the Ilkhanate, but also had an alliance with the Jalayirids afterwards. He was also purportedly allied with the Mamluks, but that may be a stretch. Perhaps a defensive pact could represent their relationship the best?

 

[Atromb]

Plateaus usually are used for quite high places and having Javakheti and inner Kartli both be plateaus makes no sense.
One is a cold grassy plain where trees barely live and the biggest agricultural product is the potato, while the other is the fruit garden of Georgia, lush with vegetation.
Oh and the Javakheti plateau is on average 1000-1500m higher than the inner Kartlian plain.
Both being plateaus makes no sense.

You need to consider that these categorizations are aplied everywhere in the map and not just in the caucasus, plateaus in other areas have been defined as plains over 500m of elevation. In fact most of them are below The 1000m mark, such high elevation plains are prety rare in the world. The issue is of course that the game doesn't introduce "high plateaus" for plains over 1000m, I think it should since those areas are quite hard to live in, but that's a different discussion.

 

[Atromb]

I expect the game to give debuffs for developement and similar attributes to locations with plateau terrain.
Similarly how in eu4 you get debuffs for mountains and hills.
The inner Kartlian plain was always one of the most developed areas in Georgia, specifically because of it's geographic characteristics.
So again, putting it and the cold Javakheti plateau in the same bin, does not sit right with me.
Especially when they have the same continental climate in the game.

My dude, Madrid, the current fifth largest city in Europe is also a plateau in game, surely the debuffs for plateaus aren't that bad, if anything "high plateaus" are probably not going to be debuffed enough.

 

[prinscky]

My dude, Madrid, the current fifth largest city in Europe is also a plateau in game, surely the debuffs for plateaus aren't that bad, if anything "high plateaus" are probably not going to be debuffed enough.

Agreed, plateau differ from each other, Tibet and Brazil are all plateaus, but apparently they are different. Plateau alone should not poses too much debuffs, its the vegetation and climate that makes a plateau harsh.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

One more thing - Lazeti (seperate from the province of Trebizond) should be under Samtskhe, not as a part of Georgia, as I mistakenly assumed.

According to the book - "Beka's (Jaqeli's) daughter was married to the Grand Komnenos Alexios II (1297 - 1330) (Panaretos cap. 9) and "the whole of Ch'aneti was given to him by the Greek king ... ", said Zamtaaghmtsereli (KC II: 304 = Georg.Chron.: 385). Armenian historian Hayton-Het'um witnesses that in his days, at the tum of the 131h -14th centuries, "a miraculous and strange" province of Hamsen//Hemshin, i.e. part of Ch'aneti, was within Georgia (I.10). Just a tiny district of the Murghuli valley on the edge of K'larjeti and Ch'aneti belonged to the western Georgian kingdom (K'S: 31-2 = Marr's trans.: 24)."

Note that this map represents Samtskhe in the late 13th and early 14th century, before it's expansions elsewhere by 1337.