• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.), but for the sake of simplicity, we decided to name this DD this. Let’s start, without further ado!

Countries:
Countries.png

Colored Wastelands.png

The region is quite interesting in 1337, as there are plenty of countries to play with. The Ilkhanate is still alive, but in name only, the real power being hosted by the Jalayirids, who are overlords of some of their neighbors (the Chobanids, and the Eretnids). Other countries, such as Gurgan, the Kartids, and Muzaffarids are also struggling to get the hegemony over the region. Meanwhile, the strongest power in the Caucasus is the Kingdom of Georgia, although the region is also quite fragmented among different polities.

Ilkhanate.png

And speaking of the Ilkhanate, you may have wondered why isn’t it a unified tag… Well, it’s because we consider that it is clearly in decadence, having lost any grasp of authority over the provinces, so the best way of portraying it is through an International Organization. What we can see in this mapmode is that there are two pretenders to get the power, the Jalayarids and Gurgan, with the other countries still being formally part of it. I won’t talk more today about how it works and its features, but I’ll just say that there are two clear fates for the Ilkhanate: being dissolved, as historically happened, or being restored in full power as a unified country.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

Not much to say today about the dynasties, as they’re akin to the country names, in most cases. Well, you might wonder which one is the yellow one, ruling over Gurgan… That country is ruled by the Borgijin, heirs of Genghis Khan. Now you get the full picture of their rule over the Ilkhanate being challenged by the Jalayirids, I think…

Locations:
Locations.png

Location 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png


Provinces:
Provinces.png


Areas:
Areas.png


Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’re back to a region with lots of different climates, topography, and vegetation. This will make it very unique, gameplay and looking-wise.

Harbors:
Harbor.png

You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

There's quite a lot of cultural division throughout the region... The Caucasus is, well, the Caucasus, divided among lots of different people. Then we have the Iraqi and Kurdish in Iraq, Persian and a number of other cultures in Iran, Baloch in Balochistan, Afghan in Afghanistan, and Khorasani, Turkmen, Khorezm, Hazara, and Tajiks, among others, in Khorasan and Transoxiana.

Religions:
Religion.png

Another interesting religious situation. Orthodox is the main religion in Georgia, and Miaphysitism in Armenia, with other confessions spread here and there throughout the Caucasus (Khabzeism, and three 'Pagan' confessions, Karachay-Balkar, Vainakh, and Lezgin). Then Iraq is divided among Sunni, to the north, and Shiism, to the south. And Iran is in an interesting situation, having a Sunni majority, but with some important Shiite pockets here and there. And Zoroastrianism, of course. It was not trivial to properly portray them, as we don't have good data for the 14th century. So what we did was some calculations, between sources that tell that there was still a majority as late as the 11th century, and the religion becoming severely reduced by the 16th century. Therefore, we decided to go with 20% of the population as a general rule of thumb; however, we're quite open to feedback over this matter.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

This region is full of rich resources, in stark contrast to the one we showed last week, Arabia. There are a couple of bugs on this mapmode that you might spot, I think.

Markets:
Markets.png

This region has several markets: Tabriz, Baghdad, Esfahan, Hormuz, Nishapur, and Zaranj., This will make for regionally fragmented-but-integrated economies (that is, good market access everyhwere, but with regionally diverging economies).

Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Population 4.png

Population 5.png

The total population of the region is around 9M, taking into account all the different areas that we’re showing today. That is divided into about 4.5M in Iran, 2M in Iraq, 1.5M in the Caucasus, and around 1.5M in Transoxiana.

And that’s all for today! Next Friday we will be taking a look at India! Yes, in its entirety; we think that it is the best way to do it, although we’ll talk more about it next week. Another change, only for next week: the DD will be published at 10:00 instead of the regular 15:00, as I won’t be available in the afternoon to reply. Letting you know so there’s a proper wow-pole-run, yes. See you!
 

Attachments

  • Religion.png
    Religion.png
    3,2 MB · Views: 0
  • Cultures.png
    Cultures.png
    3,1 MB · Views: 0
  • 86Love
  • 84Like
  • 5
  • 3
  • 1Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
I do sometimes think of this when it comes to Tusi states in china, that a lot of people want to see. At the end of the day, what point will their existence provide? I worry they will at best be ahistorical and end up with a little mini HRE under Chinese auspices with them constantly fighting each other, or at worst just be boring. Since that's basically what they did, they just sort of... existed, through the period. For those Kurdish states, I'd wonder if they wouldn't be better as just tribal pops under the Jalayirids or something. But at the same time I do think they are definitely a large enough grouping in the area that they'd be fine to have, like they look like they could have their own inter kurdish politics as well as interactions with the outside forces in their own way. IMO that could justify them being a thing.

For Tao, IMO with things like that even if they don't have much chance of striking out they are fine to exist. There are plenty of OPM's in the HRE, no reason they can't exist even if they basically exist to be conquered/unified. I think its fine.



To put my view on if a tag should be added or not:

Irrelevant tags serve to add gameplay and flavour for the nearby relevant tags, and so are justified to be added, IF it makes sense to do so administratively. Also, historically irrelevant tags are justified to be added if there is an idea to play around (like unifying Ireland, Armenia, Tibet, etc).

The Tusi for example would not be very playable if only the relevant ones were kept, while absorbing the rest to be a part of Yuan. That would force the remaining Tusi to always declare on Yuan if they wanted to expand.

+ I always prefer granularity on a map over simple blobs


 
Last edited:
  • 7Like
  • 2
Reactions:
So, essentially, Georgia should be one, single, big tag?
As my colleague already wrote, I also think that the core Kartvelian territories of Georgia should be directly integrated into the country.

The Eristavis of Georgian feudalism are basically equivalent to the Iberian Viceroyalties, in that they held some autonomy and governed more effectively than the monarch directly ever could (even if Georgia wasn't a composite monarchy like Castile or Aragon). In the perfect world, a CK3-like system of administrative vassals would be perfect here. Exception must be given to Samtskhe, as it had "cannibalised" and expanded greatly at the expense of its neighbouring fiefdoms during its time as a direct subject of the Ilkhanate.

The Armenian principalities, which were directly integrated within the kingdom since the mid-12th century, should be represented as vassals, as while they legally constituted the dominions of western and eastern Georgia (and were granted by the Mongols to Giorgi V upon his 2nd accession in 1314), they would've developed some form of statehood during their submission to the Il-Khan.

Similarly, I think Shaki/Kaki should be a march of Georgia as an ABC country because 1. The Duchy of Hereti/Saarishiano was one of they key marches (monapire) of the kingdom, guarding the eastern flank from invading armies coming through Shirvan and 2. Having it be directly integrated would be more incorrect than not, as the ruler of Shaki at the time was a Muslim Mongol, whose allegiances weren't exactly clear (as we know, the eastern part of the realm was lost to Shirvan in 1339).

Concerning the north Caucasian tribal chiefdoms, I think they should simply be in a "Georgian Crown" IO. We know from documentary sources that they oftentimes served as auxiliaries of Georgian armies and benefited from being under the protection of the kingdom in a sort of symbiotic relationship. With the exception of northeast Caucasian regions of Didoeti (Didoya), Tschurmuti (southeast Dagestan), and Tsuketi (Tsakhur), which were ostensibly directly incorporated into the kingdom (in actuality with little to no crown control due to the incredibly isolated nature of their geography, led by Khevisberis), most other chiefdoms recognized Georgian suzerainty.

We need to understand that in unlike in the early modern era and forward, where the ethnic composition of any given region was given increasingly greater significance, a multicultural kingdom like Georgia didn't ascribe much importance to whether a land was Kartvelian or not. I'd argue that some place like Svaneti, which had been a Kartvelian province since time immemorial, was of middling importance when compared to the rich and densely populated province of Ani, which was plurality Armenian.

Here's a simple map of my preferred depiction of the country in 1337, though I'm more than open to suggestions:

I spent too much time on this.png
 
  • 4Like
  • 3
Reactions:
As my colleague already wrote, I also think that the core Kartvelian territories of Georgia should be directly integrated into the country.

The Eristavis of Georgian feudalism are basically equivalent to the Iberian Viceroyalties, in that they held some autonomy and governed more effectively than the monarch directly ever could (even if Georgia wasn't a composite monarchy like Castile or Aragon). In the perfect world, a CK3-like system of administrative vassals would be perfect here. Exception must be given to Samtskhe, as it had "cannibalised" and expanded greatly at the expense of its neighbouring fiefdoms during its time as a direct subject of the Ilkhanate.

The Armenian principalities, which were directly integrated within the kingdom since the mid-12th century, should be represented as vassals, as while they legally constituted the dominions of western and eastern Georgia (and were granted by the Mongols to Giorgi V upon his 2nd accession in 1314), they would've developed some form of statehood during their submission to the Il-Khan.

Similarly, I think Shaki/Kaki should be a march of Georgia as an ABC country because 1. The Duchy of Hereti/Saarishiano was one of they key marches (monapire) of the kingdom, guarding the eastern flank from invading armies coming through Shirvan and 2. Having it be directly integrated would be more incorrect than not, as the ruler of Shaki at the time was a Muslim Mongol, whose allegiances weren't exactly clear (as we know, the eastern part of the realm was lost to Shirvan in 1339).

Concerning the north Caucasian tribal chiefdoms, I think they should simply be in a "Georgian Crown" IO. We know from documentary sources that they oftentimes served as auxiliaries of Georgian armies and benefited from being under the protection of the kingdom in a sort of symbiotic relationship. With the exception of northeast Caucasian regions of Didoeti (Didoya), Tschurmuti (southeast Dagestan), and Tsuketi (Tsakhur), which were ostensibly directly incorporated into the kingdom (in actuality with little to no crown control due to the incredibly isolated nature of their geography, led by Khevisberis), most other chiefdoms recognized Georgian suzerainty.

We need to understand that in unlike in the early modern era and forward, where the ethnic composition of any given region was given increasingly greater significance, a multicultural kingdom like Georgia didn't ascribe much importance to whether a land was Kartvelian or not. I'd argue that some place like Svaneti, which had been a Kartvelian province since time immemorial, was of middling importance when compared to the rich and densely populated province of Ani, which was plurality Armenian.

Here's a simple map of my preferred depiction of the country in 1337, though I'm more than open to suggestions:


View attachment 1260044
The Dopian dynasty from the village of Tsar should be given access to Lake Sevan.
Zrzut ekranu 2025-03-01 174830.png

Sotk (gavar)
Zrzut ekranu 2025-03-01 180005.png

The Amber location should be owned by the Vachutian dynasty
ambert.png


dopian.png

Countries:

Ani - Zakarid Dynasty
Amberd - Vachutian Dynasty
Artaz - Amatuni
Vayots Dzor - Proshyan Dynasty
Syunik - Orbelian Dynasty
Tsar- Dopian Dynasty
Khachen - Hasan-Jalalyan Dynasty
 
  • 6Like
  • 2
Reactions:
I was looking for information about the location of Gardman(Gedabay) but I did not find any information that it was owned by the Mongols.
The only information I found was about the Armenian principality, which is unknown when it was founded
It can be assumed that in 1337 this location was still under the control of the Armenian Dopian dynasty and later another Armenian principality.
cau.jpg
Zrzut ekranu 2025-03-01 204326.png

Zrzut ekranu 2025-03-01 204048.png

Zrzut ekranu 2025-03-01 193938.png

The Gardman location can be given to the Tsar Country.
Zrzut ekranu 2025-03-01 200433.png
 
Last edited:
  • 3Like
Reactions:
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
If anyone wants to read it, here is a source that attempts to describe some of the principalities that made up Circassia around this time:



Decided to have a try at mapping them out:

Circassian principalities.png
Circassia Locations.png

  • Principality of Hytuk - ruled by the Hytuk/Ghetik
    • Trebizond held the city of Matrega on the Taman peninsula, later taken by the Genoese. How could this be represented, as Trebizond doesn't have a trade post mechanic? Perhaps Hytuk was a Trebizondian vassal?
  • Principality of Copa - ruled by ?
  • Principality of Sobay/Hatukay - ruled by the Hatukay
  • Principality of Kremuk/Temirgoy - ruled by the Temirgoy
  • Principality of Kabardia - ruled by the Kabardians
  • Principality of Kipike - ruled by the Chupako


The document says that apparently the Copa would have held influence over the entire Eastern Coast of the Sea of Azov, up to Tana. However, that seems a little suspect, though I have nothing to say otherwise. Still, I decided to keep Copa as a smaller entity.

The Genoese would not gain control of the Taman peninsula until 1419, when the de Guizolfi family married a Hytuk princess and took control of the region on behalf of Gazaria.

Tuapse and Costa as mentioned before would have been under Georgian dominion.


 
Last edited:
  • 8Like
  • 2Love
  • 2
Reactions:


Decided to have a try at mapping them out:

View attachment 1262753View attachment 1262754
  • Principality of Hytuk - ruled by the Hytuk/Ghetik
  • Principality of Copa - ruled by ?
  • Principality of Sobay/Hatukay - ruled by the Hatukay
  • Principality of Kremuk/Temirgoy - ruled by the Temirgoy
  • Principality of Kabarda - ruled by the Kabardians
  • Principality of Kipike - ruled by the Chupako


The document says that apparently the Copa would have held influence over the entire Eastern Coast of the Sea of Azov, up to Tana. However, that seems a little suspect, though I have nothing to say otherwise. Still, I decided to keep Copa as a smaller entity.

The Genoese would not gain control of the Taman peninsula until 1419, when the de Guizolfi family married a Hytuk princess and took control of the region on behalf of Gazaria.

Tuapse and Costa as mentioned before would have been under Georgian dominion.


Perhaps Circassia could be an IO that these principalities are part of to defend against outside threats or at least a formable nation they could create
 
  • 4Like
Reactions:
Perhaps Circassia could be an IO that these principalities are part of to defend against outside threats or at least a formable nation they could create



Same going for the Gilaki OPMs. In 1307, together they defended against, and one time even defeated the Ilkhanate in battle, though would end up semi-conquered.


 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
These chiefdoms were legally subordinate to Georgia, even if it was lip service at times... Is it possible for a nation to be a part of two political blocks at once?

test(icle).png


Tagging @Ispil as he's evidently omniscient.
 
These chiefdoms were legally subordinate to Georgia, even if it was lip service at times... Is it possible for a nation to be a part of two political blocks at once?

View attachment 1262815

Tagging @Ispil as he's evidently omniscient.



From what I understand, you can be a part of multiple IOs at same time. For example PU+Catholic+HRE, etc.


 
  • 1
Reactions:
These chiefdoms were legally subordinate to Georgia, even if it was lip service at times... Is it possible for a nation to be a part of two political blocks at once?

View attachment 1262815

Tagging @Ispil as he's evidently omniscient.
Yeah, you can be a part of multiple IOs. You can also be a subject and a member of an IO at the same time.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
The Abazin arrived in their present place of residence sometime in the 14th century, displacing the Kabardians to the east.
Kabardians settled in Great Kabardia sometime in 1400-1450.
The Circassian Besleney tribe was probably once part of the Kabardian tribe.
Lands controlled by Kabardians in 1337
Map-of-the-Circassian-tribes-Source-Richmond-2013.png

Lesser Kabarda
wyQaLrXyGRI.jpg

This map shows Kabardian control over Ghalghai (Ingush)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghalghai
Zrzut ekranu 2025-03-08 190524.png

Zrzut ekranu 2025-03-08 190059.png


1700s.png

Karachays and Balkars may have a common culture called Tawlula
1.png

2.png


Karachay_Balkaria.jpg

karachay.png
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Kipike
Zrzut ekranu 2025-03-08 202124.png

Zrzut ekranu 2025-03-08 212631.png

The Natukhaj and Shapsugs tribes are quite closely related and were probably once one tribe forming the Kipike principality.
Zrzut ekranu 2025-03-08 204302.png

Cities of the Golden Horde
Tatartup
Dzhulat
Borders of the Golden Horde
Hamed-Troyansky_1_0.png
 
Last edited:
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:


Decided to have a try at mapping them out:

View attachment 1263359View attachment 1263360
  • Principality of Hytuk - ruled by the Hytuk/Ghetik
    • Trebizond held the city of Matrega on the Taman peninsula, later taken by the Genoese. How could this be represented, as Trebizond doesn't have a trade post mechanic? Perhaps Hytuk was a Trebizondian vassal?
  • Principality of Copa - ruled by ?
  • Principality of Sobay/Hatukay - ruled by the Hatukay
  • Principality of Kremuk/Temirgoy - ruled by the Temirgoy
  • Principality of Kabardia - ruled by the Kabardians
  • Principality of Kipike - ruled by the Chupako


The document says that apparently the Copa would have held influence over the entire Eastern Coast of the Sea of Azov, up to Tana. However, that seems a little suspect, though I have nothing to say otherwise. Still, I decided to keep Copa as a smaller entity.

The Genoese would not gain control of the Taman peninsula until 1419, when the de Guizolfi family married a Hytuk princess and took control of the region on behalf of Gazaria.

Tuapse and Costa as mentioned before would have been under Georgian dominion.





Reshuffled the countries according to @Aramenian's post.

Also, Matrega the city on the Taman peninsula was owned by Trebizond and later by Genoa, while the rest of the peninsula seemingly ruled by the Hytuk. Trebizond would need some kind of way showcase the ownership of the city, without owning the whole peninsula. Genoa atleast has a trade post mechanic. Maybe Hytuk was a Trebizondine vassal?


 
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Now that Circassia is mostly figured out, can we talk about Alania again? OK so as everybody knows, the medieval Alanian kingdom was destroyed by the mongols, right? Well in truth there wasn't exactly a united kingdom, it was divided into smaller states and tribes .
Here's an article in Russian talking about that:


And here's another source about the relationship between the Alans and the Mongols post conquest.


I can't read Russian unfortunately.
 
  • 5Like
Reactions:
Now that Circassia is mostly figured out, can we talk about Alania again? OK so as everybody knows, the medieval Alanian kingdom was destroyed by the mongols, right? Well in truth there wasn't exactly a united kingdom, it was divided into smaller states and tribes .
Here's an article in Russian talking about that:


And here's another source about the relationship between the Alans and the Mongols post conquest.


I can't read Russian unfortunately.



I'll try making a map later, but for now it seems that the lowland areas and the old capital of Alania were lost to the Golden Horde for good, while the highlands were allowed to govern as subjects.

Two specific principalities are mentioned by name:
  • Saeristavo of Ksani in modern North Ossetia/Georgia - ruled by the Georgian Bibiluri dynasty
  • Principality of Digor in modern West Ossetia - ruled by the Acharkatag dynasty
It is said that Digor was captured by the Kabardians in the following centuries, so it would make sense to give everything south of Tatartup to Georgia, and the western highlands to Digor.

There is also mentions of independent groups in the Alanian mountains, and a family called Fidarov, but it seems they were simply notables and not organized in a significant way.


 
Last edited:
  • 4
  • 2Like
Reactions:


I think this is the final iteration of the Persia region + peripheries map, unless anything crazy pops up:
  • Adjusted borders:
  • New tags:
    • Principality of Hytuk - ruled by the Hytuk/Ghetik
    • Principality of Copa - ruled by the ?
    • Principality of Sobay/Hatukay - ruled by the Hatukay
    • Principality of Kipike - ruled by the Chupako
    • Principality of Kremuk/Temirgoy - ruled by the Temirgoy
    • Principality of Kabardia - ruled by the Kabardians
    • Principality of Digor - ruled by the Acharkatag
    • Saeristavo of Ksani - ruled by the Bibiluri/Kvenipneveli
    • Emirate of the Usfurids - ruled by the Usfurids

  • Naming suggestions:
    • Sufids to Khwarazm
    • Injuids to Fars
    • Muzaffarids to Yazd
    • Mihrabanids to Sistan
    • Lower Khachen to Khachen
    • Upper Khachen to Tsar
      • Is a vassal of Khachen


Countries COMBO NEW.png


Locations:

Locations NEW.png



 
Last edited:
  • 10Like
  • 6Love
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions: