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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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But I do not agree that ALL regions in the Csb climate zone should automatically be excluded from the 'Mediterranean' climate.
Fair enough, i was mostly arguing on why Koppen Geiger paints a somewhat misleading painting of Iberia, i do not vouch for all Csb across the globe to be as humid as Galicia.
Likewise, the comparison i made with Logroño only applies to specific cases, such as the Oceanic climates in the Castilian highlands. Cfb in Wales or Scotland would definitely be humid all year round.

So I think we should take a closer look at the climates of Northern Portugal and Spain to see whether or not they should be included in the Mediterranean climate or the Oceanic climate.
I agree.

Montpellier is included in the Mediterranean climate so why should these Portugese cities not be included?
Fair enough. I was actually surprised they included the central Portuguese coastline as Oceanic, and i was very close to also propose these to become Mediterranean instead. The only reason i didn't was to avoid to overextend my post.

The biome and precipitation maps (1C and 1E) mostly overlap, which is why I would suggest taking these factors as leading for deciding the border between the Oceanic and Mediterranean/(Semi-)Arid climates, rather than the köppen climate borders
I strongly agree.


Glad we are on the same page.
 
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I assume someone has mentioned this already, but some small critiques:

Catalan should be in parts of Murcia at this point: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idioma_catalán_en_la_Región_de_Murcia

There should be a minority of Asturleonese in Cantabria, considering they exist there to this day, though they've mixed and declined significantly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asturleonese_language#/media/File:Linguistic_map_of_asturian_es.svg

There should be a Galician minority in a bit of Extramuda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fala_language

I'm also wondering if minorities that were never majorities anywhere would be included, like Jews, Roma, and the now extinct Cagots

Additionally, the part of the border that sticks out near Barrancos in Portugal is hilly.

One final thing I thought I'd mention. There was also a country between Portugal and Spain at this point, though it's probably too small to add. Would be really nice to see the cultural parts tweaked in the above post though

 
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I've edited my original feedback post, with some more locations to fix the odd shapes and to split up some of the larger locations. I also added a province map, because I had forgotten to take a look at it.
The map you made, IMO, is *the map*. So good. It would be awesome to see it implemented, or at least some change in that direction.
 
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The area where the Tabernas Desert is is labeled "grassland" on the map, which I find kind of odd. Europe's only desert should get some representation on the map, since Tabernas is such a cool place.
 
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Aragon has holdings in the Balkans at the beginning of the game. Would you have to go to war then, say, as Byzantium against Aragon and all it's allies to obtain these holdings or not? I presume conquering the Moroccan bits of Iberia would mean you'd have to go to war against it and all it's allies. But is it the same for small holdings in far away lands? And if not what decides that?
 
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Great job, the map looks fantastic, but I have some small suggestions:

I think Cantabria (Trasmiera here) should have some woods. I'm not sure if that was the case in 1337, but today there is not as much difference in terms of vegetation between Asturias and Cantabria as it seems here. Maybe some locations in Asturias or Galicia should also be grasslands (especially Villaviciosa and Villalba).

Aragonese (or Navarro-Aragonese) originated in La Rioja and the south of Navarre and I think that in 1337 it should be the main language in Tudela with some presence in other locations in the southern parts of Navarre and in La Rioja.

Regarding the markets map, the Northern parts of Castille look really empty, maybe you should try to add a market centre in Santander or Valladolid.
 
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I went and did some light research regarding the percentage of area each iberian country occupies within the peninsula, and then extrapolated that value to the percentage of locations owned by each, and here are my findings:

(Please note all of these numbers come from wikipedia, but they should be right for the most part. Although they are definitely not 100% correct, they are close enough to make my point)

Iberian peninsula: 598.220 sq km
Castile: 349.279 (58.39%)
Aragon: 103.088 (17.23%)
Portugal: 92.230 (15.42%)
Granada: 28.613 (4.78%)
Navarra: 17.625 (2.95%)
Morocco: 7.385 (1.23%)

I reached these numbers by checking the area of each spanish autonomous community HERE. From there, I could approximate the size of all countries that are not Portugal, since their borders are mostly unchanged. For Morocco and Granada area I checked the area of the provinces of Andalucia - Almeria, Malaga and Granada for Granada, and Cádiz for Morocco (I'm not happy with this one since the borders don't match, but it's the best I got).

I have counted 300 locations in Iberia:

Castile: 183 (61%)
Aragon: 51 (17%)
Portugal: 38 (12.6%)
Granada: 15 (5%)
Navarra: 8 (2.6%)
Morocco: 4 (1.3%)
Andorra: 1 (0.3%)

Comparing these percentages, we can see that Castile has around 3% more locations than they "should", and Portugal has around 3% less, while the remaining countries are actually pretty much spot on, so really good work on that regard Tinto!

To achieve the same percentages of area and location for all countries, I did some further calculations assuming that we would add around 20 new locations to the peninsula, so 320 in total. This means giving Castile and Aragon 4 locations each, and Portugal 11 locations, while Granada, Navarra, Morocco and Andorra keep their locations.

I hope this is helpful and allows you guys to get a sense of where new locations are needed, and how many of them could potentially be added. There have already been very good suggestions for portuguese locations, so I won't go into that, but for my part I would like Castile to get Tordesillas and Alicante, and Aragon to get Monzón and Montblanc.

Cheers!
 
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I'm loving the Iberian map.

I have one suggestion although:
- Having the Tagus Estuary as a separate small sea area, and Lisboa not being directly connected to the ocean.

And maybe Sintra would deserve being its own - hilly - province.
 
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A question about East Seville: is there any reason for it to span 13 locations, such as EU4's governing capacity or state maintenance for example? The southern part would correspond to the province of Cádiz like it is in EU4. And maybe Medina-Sidonia could be its own location if there is room for more.

The maps are overall very nice, reminding me of the detailed historical maps of Spain on Euratlas by Joaquín de Salas.

Thank you for the great job.
 
I went and did some light research regarding the percentage of area each iberian country occupies within the peninsula, and then extrapolated that value to the percentage of locations owned by each, and here are my findings:

(Please note all of these numbers come from wikipedia, but they should be right for the most part. Although they are definitely not 100% correct, they are close enough to make my point)

Iberian peninsula: 598.220 sq km
Castile: 349.279 (58.39%)
Aragon: 103.088 (17.23%)
Portugal: 92.230 (15.42%)
Granada: 28.613 (4.78%)
Navarra: 17.625 (2.95%)
Morocco: 7.385 (1.23%)

I reached these numbers by checking the area of each spanish autonomous community HERE. From there, I could approximate the size of all countries that are not Portugal, since their borders are mostly unchanged. For Morocco and Granada area I checked the area of the provinces of Andalucia - Almeria, Malaga and Granada for Granada, and Cádiz for Morocco (I'm not happy with this one since the borders don't match, but it's the best I got).

I have counted 300 locations in Iberia:

Castile: 183 (61%)
Aragon: 51 (17%)
Portugal: 38 (12.6%)
Granada: 15 (5%)
Navarra: 8 (2.6%)
Morocco: 4 (1.3%)
Andorra: 1 (0.3%)

Comparing these percentages, we can see that Castile has around 3% more locations than they "should", and Portugal has around 3% less, while the remaining countries are actually pretty much spot on, so really good work on that regard Tinto!

To achieve the same percentages of area and location for all countries, I did some further calculations assuming that we would add around 20 new locations to the peninsula, so 320 in total. This means giving Castile and Aragon 4 locations each, and Portugal 11 locations, while Granada, Navarra, Morocco and Andorra keep their locations.

I hope this is helpful and allows you guys to get a sense of where new locations are needed, and how many of them could potentially be added. There have already been very good suggestions for portuguese locations, so I won't go into that, but for my part I would like Castile to get Tordesillas and Alicante, and Aragon to get Monzón and Montblanc.

Cheers!
Carrying this line of thought of forward, and considering that Portugal in order to recover from its "location deficit" (15% vs 85% irl... and to have a shot at survival in game) would need to have ~10 locs added, flat, to the Península map (meaning discounting possible additions of non Pt locs), I'd venture the following additions, in decreasing order of strategic importance:
1) Braga, Minho
2) Coruche, Estremadura (detached from western Avis)
3) Mirandela, Trás-os-Montes (northern half of Moncorvo)
4) Sertã, Beira (northern half of Crato)
5) Silves, Algarve
6) Covilhã, Beira (broken off Guarda and Castelo Branco)
7) Figueira da Foz, Beira (western half of Coimbra)
8) Alcobaça, Estremadura (southern half of Leiria)
9) Sintra, Estremadura
10) Serpa, Alentejo (eastern third of Beja and Ourique)

PS
Honorable mentions:
- Olivença, Alentejo/Extremadura
- Mértola, Alentejo
- Amarante, Minho
- Terras de Bouro, Minho
- Tondela, Beira
- Penamacor, Beira

- refer to the previous superbly well done map by @DiogoOG

Keep em coming!
 
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I'm loving the Iberian map.

I have one suggestion although:
- Having the Tagus Estuary as a separate small sea area, and Lisboa not being directly connected to the ocean.

And maybe Sintra would deserve being its own - hilly - province.
Wholeheartedly agree.
Ideally, there should be a small, impassable lake between Lisbon and Setúbal in order to both portray the wide mouth of the Tagus at Alverca-Vila Franca-Alhandra line, and to improve tactical defensive planning, giving Lisbon it's natural protection from the South and the East - the Eastern end of the Torres Vedras lines would be "anchored" against this body of water, isolating Lisbon Península.
Of course, keeping the Estuary navigable.
 
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What's your source for the Muslim/Andalusi/Morisco population in the different territories of the Iberian peninsula?

I've personally only studied it for the Crown of Aragon. During the famous expulsions of the 17th century, 3566 Moriscos were expelled from Catalonia, 60,818 from Aragon, and 117,465 from Valencia. This is supposed to be the consequence of a historically large Morisco population in Valencia and low in Catalonia.

The best data is for the former Kingdom of Valencia, thanks to the work of Vicent Baydal or Enric Guignet who also studied the emigration of Christians to the territory after the conquest. It had roughly a 30% of Muslims, and they lived mostly in rural areas of the west, and also around Benidorm. Some people already showed you great maps about them.

Aragon had a noticeable, but smaller Sarracen population, and here's my first surprise, why are they all in the north? Wasn't Teruel the "Mudejar capital" because of its high Muslim population and influence in the 14th century?

The very high Muslim population in Catalonia is what shocked me the most. I cannot find any source showing such a large and widespread Muslim population all across the western half of Catalonia. Granted, almost all sources I find are for the 15th, 16th or even the early 17th century (Henry Lapeyre, Joan Reglà, Jordi Nadal...), but all estimates are below the 2%. According to the 1496 (a tax for households, which has been used to calculate the population), the only Muslims in Catalonia were 788 families (estimated at around 3000 people in total) who lived in a few villages around Tortosa and Lleida.

This would be an "approximate suggested correction" (yellow Catalan Catholics, Green for Sarracens). I also think the Basque presence in Jacetania was much sronger, there are several researches suggesting so (like Vicente Latiegui)
religious-map.png
 
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Would be disappointing if the pop mapmode was only per country. Could you have a regular gradient scale of red-green and then for super high pop locations it shift to purple and violet?
 
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