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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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It looks like you've based the climate map on the Koeppen Climate Classification, which is a good choice.

However, those subtropical zones around Catalonia & Toulouse are not present in Koeppen, or in any other climate classification that I am familiar with. In the absence of further descriptors, "subtropical" typically refers to areas with either mesic or monsoonal rainfall patterns, generally on the eastern margins of continents - like the Southeastern US, or Southern China. You could describe these two areas with something like "Subtropical Mediterranean" if you wanted to be specific, but I would just make them either Oceanic or Mediterranean, for the sake of simplicity.

Additionally, there are two spots where I think that the way Koeppen refers to its categories is misleading:
  1. You have a few patches of oceanic climate in the interior of Iberia. These are actually just an artefact of how Koeppen is meant to be used: as a very broad-scale indicator. Once you get into meso- and microclimates, (especially around mountains) Koeppen often returns categories that do not particularly make sense. At low elevations on mountains, the climate could be described as "Mediterranean, but colder" or "Continental, but warmer" - except that Koeppen doesn't have categories that specific, so those areas get lumped in with "Oceanic," despite not being oceanic in the slightest. Ideally, the parameters of a climate categorization would be tuned to prevent this, but it's very hard to do that without throwing the model off elsewhere (I know because this is my area of study, and I've spent the past 7 years trying to do it myself!) But for your purposes, those areas should just be Mediterranean or Continental.
  2. You refer to the middle of Iberia as "Cold Arid," which is clearly meant to be a simplification of Koeppen's "Arid Steppe Cold." However, you omitted the most important part of that designation - "Steppe." Presumably, you did that because "Steppe" is a vegetation type, not a climate - but Koeppen is actually using "Steppe" to mean "Semiarid," which would fit your purposes much better. You could still say "Cold Semiarid" if you wanted to be precise, but as there are only a couple places in the world that would qualify as "Hot Semiarid," (the Rio Grande Valley, Caatinga, and parts of Australia & Southern Africa) I think you would be fine just calling it "Semiarid." That category would also apply to coastal North Africa, Puglia, the Pontic Steppe, and similar places.
Finally, on the vegetation map, I'm not sure if it makes sense to consider the scrubby areas in southern Iberia (in North America, we call it Chaparral) as "Woods" in the same way as the proper forests of Galicia. You might just be trying to minimize the number of different categories though, in which case it's probably fine.

Beyond that, it looks great! Really looking forward to what's to come!
 
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It seems to me that on the resource map of provinces it is necessary not to make the names of these same resources, but to leave their images, as was the case in EU4. It just reads faster and seems to look better.
 
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Hello, first time posting on Paradox Forums. I've been following the Project Caesar talks for a while and I really like it.
I write this post to point some corrections/suggestions that imo the climatic map needs and a small change to produced goods.

Climatic map:
I'd say the climatic map should look more like the map of the image I've posted (sorry for my paint skills). In this map, red represents mediterranean climate based on Köppen Csa climate, yellow "template mediterranean" (less warm summer) Köppen Csb, brown cold arid/steppe Köppen BSK climate, and blue as maybe desertic Köppen BW, the rest of the areas out of brown should be either Csa or Csb because representing them as Bsk just doesn't fit the reality, many areas of the eastern Spanish coast (Valencia and Catalonia coasts) just don't fit into the semiarid deffinition because they have +800mm/year rains, and probably none of them fits into the cold definition as "lower than 18ºC average temperature". All this information is based on the Köppen-Geiger climate classification map done by AEMET (Agencia Española de Metereología).

Produced goods: In the Orihuela province the good produced is sand, I'd say this should be changed to salt, this region has many renowned salines, some of them in production since Medieval Era, so salt will probably represent the goods in this area much better.

Also, a little typo fix. Játiva should be renamed to Xátiva because in both Valencian and Castillian it was writen like that.
 

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I'm loving the Iberian map.

I have one suggestion although:
- Having the Tagus Estuary as a separate small sea area, and Lisboa not being directly connected to the ocean.

And maybe Sintra would deserve being its own - hilly - province.
I agree. If Lisbon could be "landlocked" from from the nortth it would be very correct. The land north of Lisbon is very hilly, and has been used many times to defend Lisbon. I would suggest these three new locations

1. Torres Vedras - Hills
2. Alenquer - Hills

OR

1 and 2 as Torres Vedras - Hills

These two were part of the Lines of Torres Vedras during the Peninsular War and stopped the third French invasion of the country. (I know it is late for Project Caesar, but it shows the potential.)

3. Sintra - Hills - if not Mountains (check Castle of the Moors)

And then Lisbon and Setúbal locations should have a water crossing, and the mouth of the Tagus should be sea where you can have ships, which have historically been used to blockade Lisbon, as early as 1384 where the Castillians blockaded Lisbon in the Tagus Estuary and had a squadron of ships protecting the entrance.

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Great looking map! Just some small nitpicks about Portugal:

1- Why is the province 'Esgueira' named like that? As far as I know, Aveiro has always been the most important settlement in that region. Maybe there is a better reason I'm not aware of, but I have never seen Esgueira mentioned in any historical text. Plus, the port of Aveiro has existed for a long time due to its favourable geographic location in the Ria de Aveiro, which is a natural lagoon that protects the inland sea/mouth of the Vouga.

2- Why is the good produced in the 'Esgueira' province Olives? That region is known for its salt production (Wikipedia claims it has been so since Roman times), and up to this day it is still easily seen in the outskirts of the city.

I am aware this is not final and Paradox might still change the provinces, and I also don't have any knowledge of the historical Portuguese provinces, but can you change the Portuguese provinces a bit?

3-I would suggest that the Trás-os-Montes province should extend itself to a portion of the Beiras province (roughly to the equivalent area of the Guarda district), encompassing the least populated areas of the North of Portugal?

4- Alternatively, you could make the province borders follow the rivers, as you have in the North, and make Alentejo follow the Tejo (Alentejo means beyond Tejo anyway so it would make sense) and make Estremadura follow the Tejo and Mondego? In the Reconquista the rivers were quite significant.

5-Should Mértola be added as a location? During that time, it was considered to be a significant town, for Alentejo standards.

6-Why do the climate types change from Trás-os-Montes to the east part of the Beiras province? That part of Portugal has a very dry continental climate, I don't think there are significant differences between the two parts. I would say instead that zone should have a different climate from the towns closer to the Atlantic
 
What about Mozarabs? As far as I remember, they were still around in this period, but I can't see them represented here.
Mozarabs (Christians in Muslim territories) technically should appear only in Granada and the benimarin beachhead, as the only areas left under muslim control. However, after Alfonso I "The Battler" campaign around Granada en 1126 several thousand mozarabs from the area came North with him. That Mozarab collaboration with the attacker made the Almoravids deport to Fez most of those who remained in the surroundings of Granada (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsión_de_los_mozárabes_en_1126), so I doubt they should be really significant by 1337. Maybe Malaga or Almería had surviving mozarabs communities, but I'd argue that Granada proper didn't.

We could do a wider interpretation and consider Mozarabs too as a minority withing the Christian kingdoms (representing southern christian population already living in some areas prior to its conquest by northern Christian polities). They actually were at first a socially distinct group, thus several towns in Aragon had both an "old" church and a "new" church. There were also literary references to "Mozararb neighboorhoods". But that was in the XII century and they seem to have been quickly assimilated (at least that seem the main thesis of the academcs writing about the XIII century demographics I have read). By 1337 I don't expect them to longer being relevant in the north.
 
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It looks like you've based the climate map on the Koeppen Climate Classification, which is a good choice.

However, those subtropical zones around Catalonia & Toulouse are not present in Koeppen, or in any other climate classification that I am familiar with. In the absence of further descriptors, "subtropical" typically refers to areas with either mesic or monsoonal rainfall patterns, generally on the eastern margins of continents - like the Southeastern US, or Southern China. You could describe these two areas with something like "Subtropical Mediterranean" if you wanted to be specific, but I would just make them either Oceanic or Mediterranean, for the sake of simplicity.

Additionally, there are two spots where I think that the way Koeppen refers to its categories is misleading:
  1. You have a few patches of oceanic climate in the interior of Iberia. These are actually just an artefact of how Koeppen is meant to be used: as a very broad-scale indicator. Once you get into meso- and microclimates, (especially around mountains) Koeppen often returns categories that do not particularly make sense. At low elevations on mountains, the climate could be described as "Mediterranean, but colder" or "Continental, but warmer" - except that Koeppen doesn't have categories that specific, so those areas get lumped in with "Oceanic," despite not being oceanic in the slightest. Ideally, the parameters of a climate categorization would be tuned to prevent this, but it's very hard to do that without throwing the model off elsewhere (I know because this is my area of study, and I've spent the past 7 years trying to do it myself!) But for your purposes, those areas should just be Mediterranean or Continental.
  2. You refer to the middle of Iberia as "Cold Arid," which is clearly meant to be a simplification of Koeppen's "Arid Steppe Cold." However, you omitted the most important part of that designation - "Steppe." Presumably, you did that because "Steppe" is a vegetation type, not a climate - but Koeppen is actually using "Steppe" to mean "Semiarid," which would fit your purposes much better. You could still say "Cold Semiarid" if you wanted to be precise, but as there are only a couple places in the world that would qualify as "Hot Semiarid," (the Rio Grande Valley, Caatinga, and parts of Australia & Southern Africa) I think you would be fine just calling it "Semiarid." That category would also apply to coastal North Africa, Puglia, the Pontic Steppe, and similar places.
Finally, on the vegetation map, I'm not sure if it makes sense to consider the scrubby areas in southern Iberia (in North America, we call it Chaparral) as "Woods" in the same way as the proper forests of Galicia. You might just be trying to minimize the number of different categories though, in which case it's probably fine.

Beyond that, it looks great! Really looking forward to what's to come!
Well I know nothing about the topic, but I can very clearly see that those areas are indeed "Humid Subtropical Climate" on the Köppen map. And actually the strip of land which is in that classification is much bigger in northern Iberia than represented in game. Which means that you either didn't bother looking it up or didn't read the map correctly. Either way, it makes me doubt everything you're saying, no offense

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  • Ejea de los Caballeros would be better named "Cinco Villas". It is the name of the shire itself, and whilst Ejea is the main city nowadayw, it was not always the case. Until modern times Sos or Uncastillo were also highly relevant.
I've been rethinking this, and a simple rename can do the trick. The old regional center for the area was Sos. However it was displaced by Ejea during the XVIII (it was better communicated). So having a neutral name avoided conflicts while keeping the rest of the model in the map.

But there may be an even better way to model the area if Tinto is willing to add a new location. The area covered in the maps is the shire/county of Cinco Villas ("Five towns", referring to Sádaba, Sos, Uncastillo, Ejea and Tauste). But it is one of Aragon biggest shires and it is functionally divided into two areas with historical, geographical and economic differences that sometimes are referred as "Upper Cinco Villas" and "Lower Cinco Villas". With two locations we would have:
  • Sos: covering Sádaba-Sos-Uncastillo, their minor villages and valleys like Valdonsella (the Upper half). That is a hill area (not flatland as in the Tinto Map) and would be well modeled by a wool resource (as in the Tinto Map). Vegetation should be sparse as in Tinto Map
  • Ejea: covering Ejea-Tauste and their minor villages (the lower part). That is indeed a flatland area with a historically fertil output. The resource should be grain, since it was for centuries the bread source that supplied the urban center of Zaragoza. The vegetation should be farmland.
I may have been too little ambitious in my original message, since this split would actually open further potential (like having the Canal of Tauste added later on, or it supplying the surplus for a brewing industry like in the real world).
 
Well I know nothing about the topic, but I can very clearly see that those areas are indeed "Humid Subtropical Climate" on the Köppen map. And actually the strip of land which is in that classification is much bigger in northern Iberia than represented in game. Which means that you either didn't bother looking it up or didn't read the map correctly. Either way, it makes me doubt you know what you're talking about no offense

View attachment 1135681View attachment 1135682

He does make some very valid points about how the Köppen classifications system works, as he is saying that the areas you encircled are an artifact of the methodology that cannot be fixed easily without throwing off some of the nuance of the current system, so it is a tradeoff. Additionally, I can point out that even while this is true, the Osona and Bages regions in Catalunya, which is the area the devs made subtropical does have the characteristics of this climate, as it is a a series of depressions which get lots of precipitations and get a lot colder than the surrounding regions, forming a microclimate. Pradox Tinto are in Sitges which is like, 40 km from there, so i'd trust their judgement on this one.
 
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He does make some very valid points about how the Köppen classifications system works, as he is saying that the areas you encircled are an artifact of the methodology that cannot be fixed easily without throwing off some of the nuance of the current system, so it is a tradeoff. Additionally, I can point out that even while this is true, the Osona and Bages regions in Catalunya, which is the area the devs made subtropical does have the characteristics of this climate, as it is a a series of depressions which get lots of precipitations and get a lot colder than the surrounding regions, forming a microclimate. Pradox Tinto are in Sitges which is like, 40 km from there, so i'd trust their judgement on this one.
Well I just looked into it, because India is a different colour on the Köppen map and there is two different classifications:
Cfa = Humid subtropical climate; coldest month averaging above 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (27 °F)), at least one month's average temperature above 22 °C (71.6 °F), and at least four months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). No significant precipitation difference between seasons (neither the abovementioned set of conditions fulfilled). No dry months in the summer.
and
Cwa = Monsoon-influenced humid subtropical climate; coldest month averaging above 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (27 °F)), at least one month's average temperature above 22 °C (71.6 °F), and at least four months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). At least ten times as much rain in the wettest month of summer as in the driest month of winter.
Maybe that's where the confusion stems from. May I remind both of you, that the word "subtropical" itself only means above 23° N or below 23°S. The word itself does not contain any information about the humidty or climate, just the amount of sun an area gets.
 
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2. We might add some more vegetation here and there, we've identified some places where it's not as dense as it should be (e.g. modern Cantabria). But take into account that by the Late Middle Ages, much of the arable land had already been deforested.
This is a good point, can the terrain change during the game? So can we deforest an area by having an intense logging industry? I know we have talked about Dutch land reclamation in the past, but I would imagine that this is easier to accomplish.
 
Okay, so prepare for a VERY long reply, including all of my suggestions for Iberia! I structured it by region to make it easier to follow, and I hope this all is helpful. The work already done here is incredible. you can truly see the passion and knowledge Tinto put into making its home region!

I can see based on the location borders you used here that we worked off many of the same maps of Spanish subdivisions + some others such as the expansion of Aragon and the decline of Granada. Within each region, the additions are numbered, and the changes to a location name or borders without an addition are marked with letters. Whenever I could fine anything useful on tradegoods, I added it. I figure you can do the climate and terrain stuff far easier than me, so no direct suggestions there. Without further ado:

Iberiall.png


Leon & Asturias
Not too many additions here, as it is already pretty dense and most major cities are represented.
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A: Sarria over Navia de Suarna
Galicia has a good density already, I wouldn't add anything. It would be great if there was a late game event that replaced Tuy with Vigo. The location names are good too, though I'd redraw the borders a bit to replace Navia de Suarna with the much more important Sarria, a key stop at Camino de Santiago


1. Grado
I understand the merging of 'Los Cinco Conejos' area into a neighbor, but it's also very odd to see a coastal city like Avilws have its location stretch so far inland. I would definitely split off Grado, which was a decently important city and Camino stop in its own right, off from Aviles, which I think also makes the size balance better, and makes Aviles a much more clearly naval location (and in fact, a nice one for say, Britain or France to take as an Iberian outpost). Seems to be a largely Livestock producing area

2. Alcanices
Zamora is rather large, and there is a clear split to its west. Alcanices is best known for the 1297 treaty there which set the Portugal-Castille border for the next centuries. It was also a fortified march centre, and had a notable Jewish minority (which mostly worked in tanneries, so maybe Livestock fits as a raw good here too)

3. Albuquerque
Albuquerque is better known for naming the future New Mexico capital, but the lords of Albuquerque were powerful nobles, and the town's population of ~7000 in 17th and 18th centuries makes it rather large for the area. If you don’t want to add a location here, I would place Albuquerque over Valencia de Alcantara in Caceres (While less important than Albuquerque, Valencia de Alcantara was still an important fortress, so I would prefer to have both)


Basque Country
I was actually somewhat disappointed by the (lack of) density here, the only regions in Iberia where that is truly the case, due to the administrative complexity and the later population boom in the region, so I have plenty of suggestions here. Adding additional locations adds more depth to the region, and makes a resurgent Navarre more powerful as well.

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1. Donostia (San Sebastian)
A very surprising omission, San Sebastian was an important city and port all throughout the period and is one of Spain's largest today. It even replaced Tolosa as the capital of the province towards the end of the game period. Most notably, however, Navarre was granted the right to use it as a port, which made it extremely important to the otherwise landlocked kingdom - there's even an argument to represent this by giving the location to Navarre

2. Bermeo
Covers the comarca of Busturia, Bermeo was the actual capital of Biscay for much of the period, making it a natural inclusion. The location also includes the later famous town of Gernika

3. Miranda de Ebro
Technically a part of Burgos rather than Alava, but it mostly takes land from the latter. This is a small location that still covers an important city and commercial center, as well as the exclave of Trevino.

4. Onati
Old city which housed the University of Onati, the only Basque university for centuries. The location also includes other important towns of Eibar (today the second largest in the province) and Mondragon/Arrasate. Onate was also a separate lordshop within Guipuzcoa. The trade good could be Iron to represent Eibar's famous forges, or Stone to represent the mines around Arrasate

5. Durango
Once a separate territory until being incorporated into Biscay, Durango is still the largest city in the province outside of the Bilbao metro area. It covers the southern part of Biscay, and it's mostly well known for the many New World places named after it

6. Ayala
This all leaves Vitoria even larger compared to its neighbors, so it needs a division. I went with Ayala, which was one of its major towns through the period, and contains the towns of Laudio and Amurrio, today the second and third largest in the province.

I would give Ayala and either Durango or Bermeo wine, to represent the production of the famous Basque txakoli, much like Tudela
Produces wine

This would actually allow you to split the Basque Country into three different provinces, matching the historical and modern division (with Laguardia being part of Alava as well)

Castille
Castille, like Leon, is already pretty dense compared to its number of notable cities, but there are still a few locations I would add.

1716094131488.png


1. Mayorga
This is mostly being added to better represent Spanish administrative borders, in this case the various large exclaves of Valladolid in southeast Leon, like Mansilla represents them to the north. It was still an important strategic stronghold, and much earlier the occasional seat of power of Leonese kings. As it has a Bread museum, I'm going to guess Wheat is the main product of the area.

2. Tordesillas
Again, no need to talk much, you suggested it yourself. Famous for its colonial treaty, but it was also an important royal city for much of the game's timeline, hosting the Castillan Cortes multiple times. Famous for its Wheat production.

3. Ayllon
Splits up the large Sepulveda. Best known for the treaty that ended the Wars of the Interregnum, seems to have mostly produced Wheat, but was also an important stop during livestock migration.

4. Talamanca
Added primarily to represent the political borders (the northern salient and enclaves of Toledo of Talamanca and Uceda), Talamanca was a longtime possession of thr Archbishops of Toledo and later a royal fief, even serving as one of the capitals under Charles I. It also had a notable Sephardic community - in 1430 it had a population of 2500, 10% of which were Jewish. This, combined with its very high medieval importance, makes the inclusion make sense despite its later decline. However, if its not added, I'd make those lands a part of Alcala de Henares rather than returning them to Guadalajara or Buitrago

5. Aranjuez
Ugh, this requires a very ugly province to be viable. The case for it is obvious - a royal estate, a town so wealthy only nobles were allowed to enter, and before that the headquarters of the Order of Santiago. Seems to produce mostly Wheat and Fruit, especially Strawberries for which its famous for, so I'd probably go with Fruit. GIven how important Aranjuez is, you could also just split it off Ocana with nicer borders, ignoring the exact administrative borders here.

A: Almagro instead of Calatrava/Manzanares
Almagro was the actual capital of the Order of Calatrava, and the largest settlement in the area. I would replace Calatrava with it, or alternatively redraw the borders to replace Matanzanares with it, but I think that's not as good of a solution. Speaking of Matanzanares, given the name and the abundance of Wheat around it, changing its tradegood to Fruit would fit.

EDIT: Forgot to enumerate it here, but Najera being added in addition to Logrono (rather than replacing it as someone suggested) would be a nice addition


Catalonia
One of the richest regions of Spain, then as now, Catalonia has a surprising number of its important cities and county centres missing. Also includes the Kingdom of Majorca here.

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1. Prades
Perpignan is rather large, and its western parts were not part of the County of Roussillon, but formed the Vegueria of Conflent of the County of Cerdanya. The capital and most important town here was Prades.

1.5 Banyuls
This doesn't get a full number because I'm really unsure about adding it, due to the small size. Banyuls is however a very old city, and it was a part of the County of Empuries, unlike the rest of Roussillon. Well known for its Wine production. You could also instead add Ceret, representing the Vallespir Vegueria - in this case, Fruit fits way better as a trade good, as Ceret is famous for its Cherries.

A: Puigcerda instead of Llivia
Puigcerda was a much more significant place than Llivia in the beginning, being the historical capital of Cerdanya and the 6th largest city in Catalonia in 14th century. Llivia however does later gain town rights, and becomes a prominent textile center in the 19th century, but I still think Puigcerda merits the inclusion more. Regardless, it seems like the location should be owned by Majorca?

With even just one (and especially with both added), Roussillon can be its own province, consisting of Perpignan, Prades, (Banyouls), Llivia/Puigcerda and Andorra, showing the transitional zone between France and Iberia.

The various counties/comarcas just to the south of Pyrenees were small, so I understand merging them, but I'm not sure merging them into Vic and Manresa is the best way, due to terrain differences among others (they're far more mountainous). I would therefore add at least one of the following two locations (Ripoll, as it seems more important), and possibly both

2. Ripoll
Ripoll was best known for its weapons industry and metallurgy, supported by its Iron and Coal mines. This definitely helps the case for its addition, and if it's not added, I'd change Vic's tradegood to account for it.

3. Berga
Very old town (dates back to Roman times) and had its own comarca/county. Assuming Ripoll is given Iron, I would give it Coal to represent the mines in the region.

4. Montblanc
As you said you're considering adding this yourself, I won't need to really convince you much. It was the 7th largest town in Catalonia at the start of the game (and one of the five in Aragon with its own seal), with large fortifications and prominent Jewish and Muslim minorities. Seems to be primarily a Wine-producing region. Could also be given nicer, more compact inland borders based on its county borders rather than comarca ones, and creating a new location for Reus (representing the county of Prades, completely separate from the one in Roussillon)

5. Tarrega
While this would be a somewhat small location, I believe Tarrega is definitely worth including. It had its own county and later a comarca all throughout the period. In early parts of the game timeline, it was a very important city, with a large Jewish minority - in 1348, a massacre of over 800 Jews occurred, implying a population easily in the thousands - it seems the period around the game's start was close to its peak too.

6. Inca
While Palma had municipal independence, the capital of Majorca was in Inca, so I think this addition makes sense too, and it further buffs Mallorca. Famed Wine producing region, which currently no location in the Balleares produces, despite them being a wine region with a tradition dating back to Roman times.

7. Terrassa
Covering Terrassa and Sabadell, this location would cover the inland parts of Barcelona, and while it lacks the administrative justification all the others here have, Terrassa and Sabadell were the heart of the industrial revolution in Spain. Due to their future textile manufacturies, Wool makes the most sense as a trade good, but Vegetables/Legumes also works due to the famous Sabadell onion.


Aragon
Aragon comparably needs much less additions than its two partner kingdoms, but its larger location sizes also mean that the additions are much easier to make.

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1. Monzon
Monzon was actually the capital of the comarca represented by Barbastro and Fraga here, as well as an occasional meeting site of the Aragonese Cortes and major castle. Even if it is not added, I would replace Fraga with it. Adding it however, does make the location shapes here much nicer.

2. Borja
As already suggested, Borja was a pretty important town and a major defensive fortress against Castillan invasions. It's most well known for the Borgia family that originates here however. Given the ox on its coat of arms (shared by the Borgias too), Livestock could fit as the tradegood, but so does Wine as viticulture is also mentioned as notable. The town also had a notable Jewish community.

3. Monreal del Campo
Daroca is rather large, and Monreal was a fortified town and home to one of the first holy orders in Spain. It is famous for Saffron production, as the area was one of its most important producers in Spain and Europe, so Spices could really spice up the area a bit. Arguably, even if the province isn't added, Spices would be a good tradegood for Daroca.

4. Mora (de Rubielos, known only as Mora or Mora de Aragon in this period)
Teruel and especially Cantavieja are both big, so this would help address that. Had a large castle and a custom office that collected taxes from trade with Valencia. Alongside Alcala de la Selva (another location I considered), part of the large domains of the Heredia family, later raised to a Marquisate.This seems to be a largely Livestock producing area, but also produced Wheat and Vegetables - the later might be nice to give Aragon some Vegetables/Legumes production.

5. Valderrobres
Alcaniz is also somewhat large and Valderrobres was a place of cultural transition between Aragonese and Catalan and. It was held as a personal fief by the Archbishops of Zaragoza and a seat of power for them. It seems to be a very wooded area compared to neighbors, so Lumber fits.

Speaking of Aragon and Catalonia, why were smaller counties such as Empuries, Pallars and Ribargoza not represented as vassal tags? I see the reasoning for not including most of the Iberian nobility or the Holy Orders, but these seem to be a special case on many maps.

Valencia
Valencia is already decently dense, but it was a very rich region throughout this period, so there are many important cities left to add.

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1. Alicante
Another location you mentioned adding already, would definitely support it due to its later importance. Mentioned to be producing olives and almonds, so it should produce Fruits.

2. Alzira
Mentioned in the thread already, it was a large city, a cultural hub in Al-Andalus times and a royal city under the Aragonese. Someone mentioned Rice as a tradegood, but Alcira is primarily known for its oranges, so Fruit works very well too.

3. Borriol
While they're historical, the borders of Peniscola are awful. Splitting off the southern part would fix it, and Borriol was the most notable town there. Notably, the majority of the population was Muslim all the way until the Muslim expulsion in 1609. Primarily grows Olives and carobs, so Olives is a good tradegood.

4. Alcoy
Alcoy was an important city until it got severely punished for picking the wrong side in a civil war. It nevertheless later rebounded to become a major center of cloth industry (as well as of metallurgy and paper production). The location also includes the town of Jijona. Jijona is mostly famous for its turron, a type of nougat made from local almonds, so Fruits work here as well.

5. Gandia
Gandia is awkward to fit from an administrative and location size perspective, so I'd understand if it wasn't included. It was nevertheless a very important city for much of the period, a centre of Borgia power in Aragon and even an early university centre, declining only after the 1609 expulsion of Muslims and converts. Those Muslims operated the sugar mills that made the city rich, so Sugar is an ideal tradegood here, especially as it's otherwise not present in Valencia or the whole of Aragon.

Ayora is noted to be one of the largest honey producers in the world, so if Honey or Wax is added as a tradegood, it should definitely produce it.

Similarly, Bunol had lime and gypsum mines, so Alum or Stone make sense here, and Villar (even if replaced, see below) had kaolin, chalk and clay mines, so Clay can be the tradegood in that province.

A: Lliria over Villar del Arzobispo
Lliria seems like a much more important place, being a royal town and having recorded population since the 16th century.

Sagunt is also a notable city in this region, but I don't see a neat way to fit it without making it and Valencia too small, same with Vilarreal right next to Castellon.

North Andalucia:
Andalucia here is divided somewhat arbitrarily, to divide it into an approximately equal number of locations added. Granada and Sevilla are in South Andalucia below.

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1. Huelma
Long location along the border with Granada, owned by the Emirate until 1438. Main productions are meat and oil, so Livestock or Olives fit

2. Alcala La Real
An important Granadan fortress taken by Castille in 1341, and further developed by them into a pretty important city (with city rights as well). Mostly known for its Olive production, but Fruit (for cherries) or Livestock would also fit as this area has many Olives, I'd go with Fruit

3. Linares (La Carolina)
La Carolina was the capital of the Nuevas Poblaciones, completely separate from the Jaen province and created to attract Catholic colonists from Central Europe to this remote area. Both were however only founded in 1767 Linares is a much older city, and is today the second most important city of the province. While it lay outside of the Nuevas Poblaciones, I'd include it in the location to make it its capital. The thing Linares is most famous for are its massive Lead mines, operating constantly since Roman times. If the province is not added, they should definitely be the raw tradegood for Baeza

4. Cazorla
Separate comarca that offers a split of the large Ubeda, it was an important border fort during the Reconquista. Grows melons, cherries and other Fruit, so Fruits fit.

If you don't want to add this many locations to Jaen, Huelma can be merged into Alcala La Real, and perhaps Cazorla not added.

5. Caravaca de la Cruz
Given all the other locations included in Murcia, I was surprised by this exclusion. Caravaca was a big pilgrimage site, and it remains so until today as one of the few Holy Cities of Catholicism. It was a stronghold of the Order of Santiago seat of a big administrative area under them, also including Yeste and Ricote ( with Yeste being a major town of over 5000 people in the 15th century). In the 16th century, Caravaca had 7000 people and was the third largest city in Murcia, after Murcia itself and Lorca. It is also a mining area, mining porphyr, jasper, Iron and limestone, so Marble, Germs, Iron and Stone are all possible - I'd probably go with Gems (or Marble) due to the uniqueness and to represent it's wealth.

6. Priego (de Cordoba)
Another location owned Granada at the start of the game. It was hotly contested, with Granada losing it for good in 1341. It was later a marquisate as well. Famous for its Olives, so they're the obvious tradegood, though Wheat is also produced.

7. Montilla
Not an administrative centre, but an important city (with city rights granted as well) nevertheless. It was the center of the powerful Aguilar lordship as well, having a population of over 13000 by the end if the game's period. Produces Olives much like the rest of the province, but it's far better known for its light sherry wines, such as the Amontillado. Would you like a cask?

The city of Cabra is also in this area, but it would be very difficult to fit it between Lucena and Baena. I would however represent Cabra's red limestone quarries by giving one of these two locations Stone or Marble as their tradegood.


South Andalusia
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1. Zahara (de La Sierra)
Another location still owned Muslims at the start of the game. They first lost it in 1407, but managed to recapture it in 1481 - which simply gave Castille the excuse to finish Granada off. It also splits the rather large Moron location. Its famous for the chamomile gathered around it, so it would be a rare Medicaments producing location! As with other such specific tradegoods, even if Zahara is not added, I'd change Moron's tradegood to Medicaments

2. Estepa
Not the most important potential addition, but Estepa was still an important city and centre of a powerful marquisate. Estepa is mostly known for its confectionery, so Sugar could work (or Livestock, as it is made with pork fat), but it naturally produces a lot of Olives as well.

3. Tarifa
Another location you recommended yourself, Tarifa was already captured by Castille by 1337 and was their main military base in the Strait. While it lost some of its importance with the fall of Granada, it still had about 4000 inhabitants by late 16th century and its own marquisate. It's most prominent resources were Horse husbandry and tuna Fishing.

I would also redraw Gibraltar to look better when owned as a single-location outpost, for obvious reasons.

4. Alhama (de Granada)
Most well known for its hot springs, this was a favorite town of both Muslim and catholic monarchs, as well as a key fortress in Granada's defenses. It's also known for producing Legumes, especially chickpeas.

5. Motril
An important city, had about 2000 inhabitants just before it was conquered by Castille. Produced Silk and Sugar, so I'd assign one of these as the tradegood, I'd go with sugar as it became by far its most important product, especially under Spanish rule. Almunecar is redrawn and pushed into Valle de Lecrin to be more viable size-wise

6. Huascar
Covers the northeast of the current Baza location, this town switched hands multiple times during the Reconquista, being last conquered by Granada in 1324, meaning it (along with Baza) still had a Christian presence. CStille would take it again in 1434 only to lose it in 1447, before its final capital in 1488 (awful year). It had a large population, almost 600p by the mid 16th century, and it's own duchy. It later saw a large number of Basque colonists. Today it's mostly well known for being "at war" in Denmark for most of the past 200 years due to an error. It's famous for the Segureno Lamb, so Wool is the best tradegood, though Livestock, Legumes or Olives could all also fit

A: Albox over Almanzora
Albox was a large fortress, the most important one in the Almanzora River valley (also including other towns such as Purcheda), and was definitely more important than the town of Almanzora itself. The goods produced in the valley are Silk, Honey and citrus Fruits, so perhaps one of these should replace Marble.

7. Velez Blanco
Velez Blanco was the centre of a marquisate with its powerful castle. The main tradegood produced seems to be fruit

PORTUGAL:
As many people in the thread have noted, Portugal is perhaps the most in need of additional locations if it is to compete with Spain.
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A: Ourem over Chao de Couce
Perhaps the location should be Ourem over Chao de Couce? The later does seem to have been more important in the period than today, but Ourem still seems far more important.


1. Sintra
As has already been suggested, this would be a small location but a nice addition, representing Sintra and Cascais, and their palace complex, would make the wealthy heart of Portugal denser. Also home to a large Sephardic community.

Not as important, but I'd love to redraw the Lisbon/Torres Vedras border as shown to make Lisbon and Sintra only accessible from Torres Vedras - this would increase the capital's defensibility and make Torres Vedras very strategically important - and lead to great battles and sieges such as Wellington's Lines of Torres Vedras

2. Alcobaca
Leiria is a large province with a somewhat awkward shape, and Alcobaca was famed for its wine and it's monastery, the largest and most important in Portugal. The location would also include Obidos, known for its patronage by Portuguese Queens.

3. Silves
Silves was the capital of the Algarve until 1576, so it seems like a natural inclusion, despite being overshadowed by other cities of the southern coast with time. This would also mean that the four provinces of Algarve are its 4 in-period capitals!

4. Serpa
Rather simple one. Beja and Ourique are rather big, and Serpa, one of the most important Portuguese fortified towns, is missing, making for another natural inclusion. Main goods seem to be Wheat and Livestock (Cheese, for which its famous for). Copper would also fit, due to the mines in the nearby Mertola (which only began exploitation towards the end of the period however) - Mertola could also be its own location as well.

5. Estremoz
Estremoz was another important fortification towards Spain, and while Avis and Elvas aren't nearly as large, they're both very awkwardly shaped and adding Estremoz would help with that. Another good reason to add Estrdmoz is that it, Borba and Vila Viciosa are producers of famous Marble. Even if the location isn't added, at least change the raw trade good of Elvas to Marble to represent it.

6. Abrantes
A decently wealthy town and region, this mostly serves to split up Santarem. Later in the period, it was a major Silk producer.

Crato has a rather weird shape - it could be fixed by adding Proenca, but I'm not sure that's warranted.

7. Portel
The least important location I'm suggesting here, it's mostly just an option to balance the size of Evora. Seems to be a largely agricultural, Wheat producing area.

8.9.10 Braga, Mirandela, Covilha
Already explained far better than I could by Hermerico, I simply included them on the map

Now, for four less important suggestions:

11. Olivenca
The reasons are obvious - its the only permanent major change in borders between Portugal and Spanish states. On the other hand, it would be very small and not particularly rich or populous. It was however already disputed in the 13th and 17th century and a fortified town, so it is not without merits.

12. Figueira
Figueria was not particularly prominent for much of this period, but saw rapid growth towards its end. I included it as an option to further split up the rich Portuguese core and due to its later importance. Would likely produce Fish (with Fruit also being an option)

13. Valenca
Another fortress important for Portuguese defenses, unlike the southern forts it is in the already dense north, meaning there is less need and opportunity to represent it.
EDIT: oops this said Viana at first, obviously Viana is already in

14. Serta
Mostly added to fix Crato's very weird location shape, but Serta was decently important and a possession of the Hospitallers. The primary industry of the area seems to be wood, so Lumber would be the tradegood. Definitely the least important province I suggested in Portugal.

EDIT:
Based on an additional map and a further look at other sources on regions I might have overlooked, there are a few more suggestions in regions I previously overlooked, and some more historical borders in Portugal:

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0: Najera
Najera was already suggested but not enumerated in the original post. One of the most important cities in the province, only slightly less so than Logorono by the game start. Had the title of a city since the 15th century, and was even the capital of a kingdom in the early middle ages

1.Ribadeo
A major trade port and county offering a split for Mondonedo. Notably it was the only port in Spain to trade with the Baltics and import their liquor. Primary industry seems to be Fishing, so Fish as the raw tradegood makes sense

2. Ribadavia
Important town and county, which had a large Jewish community. Off Very well known for its Wine exports. Also includes the County of Celanova, and offers a split for Ourense

3. Potes
The centre of the Liebana valley, this was a separate administrative division from the rest of Cantabria, even being independent or attached instead to Burgos at times. The area is known for Liebeana cheeses, so Livestock is the best tradegood.

4.Torrelavega

The second largest city of Cantabria today, this was a very important agricultural area throughout the period, so Wheat would be a good tradegood. However, Zinc mines were discovered here in the middle of the 19th century, so despite the lateness Zinc could also work

5. Saldana
Offers a split of the rather large Carrion de los Condes, and a county in its own right. Well known for the Saldana bean, so Legumes works well as a tradegood. Otherwise grows rye, so Sturdy Grains works too
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6. Fuensalida
This one isn't the most necessary perhaps, due to the size, but it was a separate county and had town rights as well. Had a significant Muslim and Jewish population. Mostly known for producing Olives, but produces Wine as well.

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7. Reus
Used to further split up the rather awkward borders of Montblanc, representing the Catalan county of Prades subject to it. Reus was its most important town. It has had town rights since the 12th century, and in the 17th century had 1200 houses (implying a population of well over 5000). Very well known for liquor and wine production, so Wine is a good tradegood choice, but the famous Reus hazelnut (as well as the liquors being fruity) means that Fruit would also fit great and would probably be the more unique choice for the area

The location of Terrassa was also redrawn to better fit the borders of the county of Valess.

8. Ceret
As previously mentioned under consideration, Ceret represents the counry of Vallespir. Would also include Banyuls if it isn't added. Famous for its Cherries, so it would produce Fruit

Portugal

The borders of Portugal were much improved using the map, also leading to several new additions:

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1. Mertola
Split off from Serpa and solely within Ourique (while Serpa is only within Beja). As mentioned in the original post, would produce Copper due to the mines there

2. Viana de Alentejo
A separate county from Beja, this is another option to split the location.

Portel isn't actually within Evora, and is within the current borders of Moura - it was redrawn to account for that.

3. Montemor-o-Novo
The new split for Evora as Portel no longer serves this purpose. A separate Marquisate, the area is one of the biggest meat producers in Portugal, so Livestock would be a good tradegood.

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Instead of primarly being used to split Castelo Branco, Covilha is instead the split for Guarda (where it's actually located)

4. Penamacor
The new split for Castelo Branco, it was another major castle meant to protect against Castille. The area is known for its wines of the same name, so Wine is the natural tradegood

Abrantes, Mirandola, Estrmoz and Braga also saw a significant change in their location shape.

Conclusion
So that's it for this week! Again, I hope this is all helpful
 
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Well I just looked into it, because India is a different colour on the Köppen map and there is two different classifications:

and

Maybe that's where the confusion stems from. May I remind both of you, that the word "subtropical" itself only means above 23° N or below 23°S. The word itself does not contain any information about the humidty or climate, just the amount of sun an area gets.

Yeah we're just agreeing here. Subtropical doesn't mean Indian, and this is a climate classification so latitude is unimportant. And you just described the climate in Vic, the capital of the region.

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for comparison, here's Tokyo that ought to fall in the same humid subtropical classification.

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A: Lliria over Villar del Arzobispo
Lliria seems like a much more important place, being a royal town and having recorded population since the 16th century.

Sagunt is also a notable city in this region, but I don't see a neat way to fit it without making it and Valencia too small, same with Vilarreal right next to Castellon.

That area is really weird, it should be redrawn. It currently completely ignores the existence of the Espadà mountain chain, and the valley of the Palància, where the most important city would be Segorbe by a lot. Maybe just having that area marked as Segorbe and then uniting the Serrania and Camp de Túria shires under a single location named Llíria would work better, but I agree that El Villar (the name of the town at that time) is a really weird choice.
 
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No, we're open to review.
Hello, a group of Catalan fans of Paradox games and some historians among them! We love all these maps about the old Catalan kingdoms (Mallorca, Valencia, and Catalunya). We would like to make some clarifications.

Regarding locations
We believe that the names of the Catalan provinces have nothing historical and, in fact, have never existed. It is only used, sometimes, as references in works on the Catalan expansion in the territory of present-day Catalonia.
In fact, if you're using Javier de Burgos as a reference, it might be more appropriate to use the Napoleonic provinces.
(Segre, Montserrat, Ebro, Ter and Eastern Pyrenees)
We prefer Urgell, Barcelona, Lleida, and Tarragona. With the new locations, there will be enough for 4 provinces.
They all have their historical with ancient Veguerias of XIV and XV centuries.

Regarding Valencia, there are already mentioned in other messages. Oriola should be split to give representation to Alicante (Alicante). Even create a fourth province of Oriola with 3 locations (Oriola, Alicante and Elche). Valencia could also be divided in 2 with Albufera.

Palma de Mallorca is called Palma.

Culture:
There are areas such as Matarranya and Morella that were inhabited by a Catalan majority. In the south Oriola also and even Múrcia, Cartagena and Hellín had a Catalan majority until the 16th century.

Economy
Barcelona should have a production asset other than fish. Sort fur and Talarn Iron. Maybe you can put Saltpeter in Cardona and Salt in Manresa, but we think is better wheat. Montblanc maybe Olives and Tarrega wheat.
Salt is better in Ibiza and in Mallorca wheat. Vilafranca also wine.

About Clima there are other messages to explain better that all coast of Valencia is better Mediterranean.

Thanks for word and regarding all this feedback. I hope some of these suggestions can be considered!
 

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1- Why is the province 'Esgueira' named like that? As far as I know, Aveiro has always been the most important settlement in that region. Maybe there is a better reason I'm not aware of, but I have never seen Esgueira mentioned in any historical text. Plus, the port of Aveiro has existed for a long time due to its favourable geographic location in the Ria de Aveiro, which is a natural lagoon that protects the inland sea/mouth of the Vouga.
Esgueira during this time was more important than Aveiro. Check here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esgueira

"With the elevation of Aveiro to city, the lands were converted into crown lands, after the Dukes implicated in the attempted assassination of Joseph I of Portugal were executed: the privileges of the Dukes were removed, and transferred by 6 November 1836 decree, extinguishing the municipality and annexxing Esgueira (as a simple parish) to the municipality of Aveiro."
 
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