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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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It's not matter of what i thin, it is a matter of that we have documented evidence from before the reconquista that the common population already used valencian languuage before the reconquista. So no, I don't think it spread, it was already the romance language of the area, just like occitan did not spread through catalonia, catalonian was simply the romance common language of the area, as they developed. Latin romance language did not develop through immigration, I hope you understand that basic fact. They simply developed independently from each other but closely related by geography. That is why in different regions you have different variants of latin romance vulgar language, closely related the closer geographically they were from each other.

Did some catalonians help popularizing the common romance language after the reconquistar after several centuries of muslim occupation? Yeah, maybe? I don't know to what extent the muslim population would have enforce arab on the local population but I suspect it would have been very little in the early middle ages.
Saying that Valencian was spoken before the reconquest is like saying that the Native Americans spoke English before colonization. No matter how many times something is repeated, it does not become reality.
 
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Occitan and catalan is not the same.

Valencian and catalan is not the same.

Different cultures and languages.
But what is your evidence that Valencian and/or Catalan dont descend from a common ancestor in 8th century Occitan tongues spoen in Languedoc and Toulouse?

Please let's just use precise linguistic sources, I want a productive discussion that gets to thenpoint.
 
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It's not matter of what i thin, it is a matter of that we have documented evidence from before the reconquista that the common population already used valencian languuage before the reconquista. So no, I don't think it spread, it was already the romance language of the area, just like occitan did not spread through catalonia, catalonian was simply the romance common language of the area, as they developed. Latin romance language did not develop through immigration, I hope you understand that basic fact. They simply developed independently from each other but closely related by geography. That is why in different regions you have different variants of latin romance vulgar language, closely related the closer geographically they were from each other.

Did some catalonians help popularizing the common romance language after the reconquistar after several centuries of muslim occupation? Yeah, maybe? I don't know to what extent the muslim population would have enforce arab on the local population but I suspect it would have been very little in the early middle ages.
Where is this documented?
 
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My suggestions for map changes, i know im not very good using the paint tool.

1716293891246.png


Regarding tradegoods, from what I have read, Gandía in the era covered by the game was dedicated to silk, sugar cane and raisins.


On the map of provinces, I would remove Xativa from the province of Alicante and rename it Alicante or Elche.
 
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Occitan and catalan is not the same.

Valencian and catalan is not the same.

Different cultures and languages.
They are the same though, the official position of the Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua is that "Catalan" and "Valencian" are different glottonyms (different names used in different regions) of the same language. The two are perfectly intelligible in spite of some pronunciation and grammatical differences.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the opposite of what's depicted on the map used to be true. That is, what we might nowadays wholly refer to as the "Catalan language" used to be referred to as "Valencian" because that was the standard dialect before it shifted to the Barcelona one. Depending on how late this shift happened, it might actually make more sense (within the context of the game) to label the entire [linguistic community from Eastern Iberia stretching from Murcia to Perpignan] as "Valencian" instead, then, which could be fun.

That being said, I'm fine with splitting the two, we're talking cultures, not languages. But if that happens, I think it's sensible to also split Castillian and Asturleonese up. It's honestly weird that France and Germany have been comparatively culturally balkanised, while Spain has big culture blobs that follow clear linguistic lines.

Alternatively, you could label the language as "Valencian-Catalan", but that's awkward. imho a good rule of thumb is that if you have to hyphenate something, absent a better catch-all term, it's better to split it, which is why I suggested Asturleonese be renamed to "Leonese" or be split. It's why I'm not proposing "Galician-Portuguese" be one single culture even though the two languages only started to really diverge in the 15th century.
 
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Thank you for your feedback I have updated the post now :)


The location of Almeida/Pinhel added, Viseu now only goes to the Mondego, Coimbra and Guarda now have a border south of the Mondego, some mountains have been removed and some of the vegetation and topography changed.

For the provinces: Estremadura is smaller and Ribatejo is now Alto Alentejo and Alentejo is Baixo Alentejo.
Alcácer do Sal being grouped with Estremadura made sense if we're following the historical map you linked. Based on geography and modern administrative divisions though, Baixo Alentejo indeed makes more sense.
Also, I don't know if Setúbal and Lisbon should have a connection. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most bridges over that region of the Tagus are pretty modern, there are boat crossings and have always been of course, but those are a separate mechanic.
 
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Saying that Valencian was spoken before the reconquest is like saying that the Native Americans spoke English before colonization. No matter how many times something is repeated, it does not become reality.
Besides your insults in other posts, you are showing to know little about what you are talking.

Before the reconquest, hundreds of thousands of roman hispanic christians lived there, still speaking their romance language, they didn't write in latin, but the ones who had the privilege of writing did it in the arabic form, and those texts translated to latin phonetics match extremly close to nowadays valencian language.

So yes, there was people speaking "valencian" before the reconquista, an obvius thing when a huge chunk of populaiton was latin christian carrying their traditions and language generation after generation.

And following your reasoning, catalan should be called occitan, because the arabs took the territories all the way up to Narbonne, until the french saved the day and hold them for good.
 
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Alcácer do Sal being grouped with Estremadura made sense if we're following the historical map you linked. Based on geography and modern administrative divisions though, Baixo Alentejo indeed makes more sense.
Also, I don't know if Setúbal and Lisbon should have a connection. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most bridges over that region of the Tagus are pretty modern, there are boat crossings and have always been of course, but those are a separate mechanic.
About Alcácer do Sal in Baixo Alentejo - it makes more sense like this also for gameplay balance between the provinces.

About a connection between Lisboa and Setúbal - until the 20th century, there were only boat connections. The control of the estuary has also been used to move troops from on shore to the other. The siege of Lisbon of 1384 is a perfect example of how important the control of the estuary and its entrance was for besieging Lisbon.
 
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Before the reconquest, hundreds of thousands of roman hispanic christians lived there, still speaking their romance language, they didn't write in latin, but the ones who had the privilege of writing did it in the arabic form, and those texts translated to latin phonetics match extremly close to nowadays valencian language.

So yes, there was people speaking "valencian" before the reconquista, an obvius thing when a huge chunk of populaiton was latin christian carrying their traditions and language generation after generation.

And following your reasoning, catalan should be called occitan, because the arabs took the territories all the way up to Narbonne, until the french saved the day and hold them for good.
Can you please provide a source for the claim that the Romance tongues spoken in the early middle ages matched the innovations seen in Catalan/Valencian?
 
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I'm not from the region, so don't criticize me as much if I don't say something 100% right, but what are the differences between both cultures? Like, for example at a liguistics level, are there a bigger prevalance of "borrowed" words from the arabic in valencian (for example) than in catalan, or in the other hand is there any of them more closer to the occitan? Also, is there some differences in cultural pillars that bring one or the other apart from each other?
 
I'm not from the region, so don't criticize me as much if I don't say something 100% right, but what are the differences between both cultures? Like, for example at a liguistics level, are there a bigger prevalance of "borrowed" words from the arabic in valencian (for example) than in catalan, or in the other hand is there any of them more closer to the occitan? Also, is there some differences in cultural pillars that bring one or the other apart from each other?

You see this post in valencian?

Extract from the Valencian Language Academy. Stop talking nonsense and let's close the issue. You are being ridiculous.

View attachment 1136580

View attachment 1136581

If you "translated" it to catalan, you wouldn't have to change a single word. Not one. In fact, if I didn't know beforehand I probably wouldn't have even noticed it's in Valencian dialect in the first place.

The difference is about the same as British and American English. So different dialects of the same language.
 
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Can you please provide a source for the claim that the Romance tongues spoken in the early middle ages matched the innovations seen in Catalan/Valencian?
I did not claim that romance languages coexisting during arab rule matched innovations of the later evolved language. But actually, those innovations you refer had their birthplace later at Valencia, specifically at la safor. Revealing the power of Valencian culture during those times.
 
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About Alcácer do Sal in Baixo Alentejo - it makes more sense like this also for gameplay balance between the provinces.

About a connection between Lisboa and Setúbal - until the 20th century, there were only boat connections. The control of the estuary has also been used to move troops from on shore to the other. The siege of Lisbon of 1384 is a perfect example of how important the control of the estuary and its entrance was for besieging Lisbon.
I agree, this is the primary reason for including the crossing; Lisbon was always very difficult to capture without total control of its river because historically, during sieges, it was just too easy for the city to cut off enemy options and organise siege relief efforts. Pretty much every failed invasion of Portugal in the game period minus the Fantastic War involved at some point the invader failing to properly control communication between Lisbon, the sea and the opposite coast of the Tagus. Lisbon is a fortified box surrounded by hills and one of the largest estuary in the peninsula, which is why it made a good power center despite being away from the most populated areas of the country.

It's also why the Tower of Belém was built in the area, because controlling that river made the city virtually unassailable. Until the tower was built, Portugal kept a large warship in the estuary at all times.

What I imagine is the the developers believe that role is fulfilled by basic siege calculation penalties from lack of blockade, but frankly that doesn't cover for how the opposite coast of the Tagus was just as important to control the city as the city itself, and it's just not as fun as having to account for a crossing in the game.
 
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About population numbers (linking to my post), I'd like to introduce this table from Paul Bairoch's study on European cities' demographics. The c. 1330 numbers would be pretty helpful considering the start date.

1716298030086.png


As you can see, the numbers in the game are way higher than they probably should, especially notable in cases like Barcelona (133k vs 48k) or Toledo (81k vs 42k) and overall all those places over 50k (and even 80k in some cases). Granada, Seville or Malaga are close enough (a bit higher, or a bit lower in some cases, like Malaga).

And, again, I understand this would count population not living in the cities themselves but in the surrounding countryside and hinterlands, but still, some of the numbers should definitely be tweaked.
 
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Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
View attachment 1134319
The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
View attachment 1134322
Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
View attachment 1134324
Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
View attachment 1134325
View attachment 1134326
View attachment 1134378
Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
View attachment 1134456
Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
View attachment 1134335
The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
View attachment 1134336
This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
View attachment 1134381
This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
View attachment 1134340

And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
Is there any way in which the size of the numbers in the pops map mode can be streamlined? This looks quite difficult to read.
 
You see this post in valencian?



If you "translated" it to catalan, you wouldn't have to change a single word. Not one. In fact, if I didn't know beforehand I probably wouldn't have even noticed it's in Valencian dialect in the first place.

The difference is about the same as British and American English. So different dialects of the same language.
Well, I saw it, but I can't make an opinion on such a wide field as a language lexicon based on a phrase. Like you said, they may be a variant of one and another, but they can also be both variants of other language like occitan. Like portuguese, castillian or french being evolutions of common latin. That's my point, did they evolved individually from a common root or is one a derivation of the other? Can it be proved with documentation, like language treatises, historical doccumentation or academical data?
 
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This looks great! I have couple of comments on Portugal: :)

1) I do think Braga should be included, from the Roman times it was one of the most important cities in the North of Portugal, being one of the most important cities for Catholicism in Iberia. "The Archbishop of Braga has claimed the title of Primate of the Spains (Portuguese: Primaz das Espanhas) both for being the oldest diocese on the Iberian Peninsula and for its role in the christianization of the Suebi Kingdom." It was definitely the most important archidiocese of Portugal with a lot of privileges.

2) The Porto location (and its surroundings) are all included in the Minho province. However, as of now, Minho only covers what is now Viana do Castelo and Braga. I was unable to find any sources for the 1400s but in the 1700s the exact borders of what is Minho in Project Ceaser was called "Entre-Douro-e-Minho" (Between the Douro and Minho rivers) - see attached a couple of maps

Could you look into possibly updating the name? I am not sure if at the start of the game Minho also includes Porto (I am sure you guys have looked into it) so feel free to let me know if it would be historically inaccurate to call this whole area as "Entre-Douro-e-Minho" at the start of the game.

3) Portugal was officially the "Kingdom of Portugal and the Algarves", will there be any specific characteristics in the Algarve province to account for this differentiation although in practice it was basically another province?

4) In what is now the municipality of Miranda do Douro there is the only minority language in Portugal (Mirandês), from the Asturoleonese family. Will this be represented in the Miranda do Douro location? Also, the name in Portuguese is Miranda do Douro, not de Douro as it is on the map.

Thank you! And keep up with the great work you guys are doing!
 

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I'd like to supply the following source for population and economic data on Portugal from 1143 to modern days by the Lisbon Institute of social sciences:


Standouts include data on the population in the 13th-to-14th century:

1716300717863.png


Then in tables:

1716300801544.png
1716301930364.png
1716302020965.png


Plus some economic data:

1716301019463.png



Plus data on commerce:
1716301161077.png
1716301197799.png
 

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I'd like to supply the following source for population and economic data on Portugal from 1143 to modern days by the Lisbon Institute of social sciences:


Standouts include data on the population in the 13th-to-14th century:

View attachment 1136612

Then in table:

View attachment 1136613

Plus some economic data:

View attachment 1136624
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/tinto-maps-2-17th-of-may-2024.1678273/post-29638739
:D:p

I love this book
 
Once upon a time - many years ago, I did research for M&T. Here is a link to the section that I did on Spain - https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ion-3-0-historical-data.1150491/post-25173029

If you skim through it, most of it is pretty general information, but there are some things that might be useful for the starting setup for Spain. Among those were the maps of livestock and some agricultural goods. While these were from the early 20th century, I would guess that the regions probably didn't change a terribly large amount (locals from Spain can say where that is wrong).

Distribution of cattle versus mules/asses:
Screenshot_20190217-134750_Drive (1).jpg

Distribution of wheat versus olives:
Screenshot_20190217-134938_Drive (1).jpg

Distribution of wine (just ignore the landholding part, which did not come out for some reason):
Screenshot_20190217-134951_Drive (1).jpg
 
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