• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
  • 281Love
  • 156Like
  • 11
  • 8
  • 1
Reactions:
The real deal is how to name the common language, obviusly catalans give it for granted that should be catalan, just because.

But at the time, the language was just a western mediterranean form of romance, and it was spoken outside iberia (occitania), and inside islamic controlled areas by the native hispanic populations, as far as we know the language didn't had an institutionalized name, it was a common language all allong, so catalans doesn't have the right to name it centuries later. Tho some of them just pushed really hard on that and their "catalan" culture for so many years on their agenda to seceed from spain.

And enough of this offtopic.

I'm not really going to debate the political aspect to this, I'm not interested. But there is a logical reason to it being called Catalan. It's a dialect continuum originating from Occitan, so it would've begun in the Catalonia region (Catalonia itself, and Northern Catalonia in France) with the counts and dukes of the Hispanic March.

It does not make sense to name the language after where it sprung up later, in Valencia and Balearic Islands. It's as if when during the Kingdom of Portugal and Kingdom of Algarve were around, the debate was whether the language should be called Portuguese or Algarvian. It's illogical and absurd.
 
  • 4
Reactions:
I'm not really going to debate the political aspect to this, I'm not interested. But there is a logical reason to it being called Catalan. It's a dialect continuum originating from Occitan, so it would've begun in the Catalonia region (Catalonia itself, and Northern Catalonia in France) with the counts and dukes of the Hispanic March.

It does not make sense to name the language after where it sprung up later, in Valencia and Balearic Islands. It's as if when during the Kingdom of Portugal and Kingdom of Algarve were around, the debate was whether the language should be called Portuguese or Algarvian. It's illogical and absurd.

I'm also not going to get into the dicussion... but the Portuguese example is not valid: in that case, you would call the language Galician. :p
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I'm also not going to get into the dicussion... but the Portuguese example is not valid: in that case, you would call the language Galician. :p
I mean, thing there is more complicated. Linguists debate whether it's a separate language now or not. There isn't really a big debate among linguists in the case of the Catalan countries
 
  • 5
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I mean, thing there is more complicated. Linguists debate whether it's a separate language now or not. There isn't really a debate among linguists in the case of the Catalan countries

There is. And yes, it is politically tainted, and not easy. As with any other language, because as a society we've decided to give language an importance that it probably shouldn't have. But yes: there is debate on whether they are the same language or not. Not the only similar case in Spain, I must add.
 
  • 6
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
There is. And yes, it is politically tainted, and not easy. As with any other language, because as a society we've decided to give language an importance that it probably shouldn't have. But yes: there is debate on whether they are the same language or not. Not the only similar case in Spain, I must add.
I was under the impression this was mostly among non-linguists. Doesn't even the AVL consider Valencian a variant of the Catalan language?
 
I was under the impression this was mostly among non-linguists. Doesn't even the AVL consider Valencian a variant of the Catalan language?

The AVL is just another political artifact that has changed views depending on who was in charge. It was actually established with the goal of making it clear that valencian was NOT catalan. And the "official" opinion of the AVL on the matter is vague and ambiguous enough to satisfy both opinions (which shows that they are at least clever).
 
  • 6
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
The AVL is just another political artifact that has changed views depending on who was in charge. It was actually established with the goal of making it clear that valencian was NOT catalan. And the "official" opinion of the AVL on the matter is vague and ambiguous enough to satisfy both opinions (which shows that they are at least clever).
“the language native to Valencians throughout their history, from the philological viewpoint, is also shared by other autonomous communities (Catalonia and the Balearic Islands) and the Principality of Andorra. […] Within this group of speech variants, Valencian has the same position and value as any other regional variety of the linguistic system; moreover, it possesses distinguishing characteristics which the AVL have to protect and promote based on local lexicographical and literary tradition, on the true linguistic situation in Valencia and on the normative rules already established in the Normes de Castelló (the Castelló Regulation)”.

As a consequence of this resolution, the standardised Valencian dictionary, Diccionari normatiu valencià, defines Valencian as a “Romance language spoken in the Valencian Community, as well as in Catalonia, the Balearic Islands, the French department of the Pyrénées Orientales, the Principality of Andorra, the eastern flank of Aragon and the Sardinian town of Alghero (unique in Italy), where it receives the name of catalan”

They sure have a way with words lmao, it seems to suggest they're all the same language though, with Valencian being a distinct variant. This passed as their definition 20 years ago
 
  • 2
  • 2
Reactions:
“the language native to Valencians throughout their history, from the philological viewpoint, is also shared by other autonomous communities (Catalonia and the Balearic Islands) and the Principality of Andorra. […] Within this group of speech variants, Valencian has the same position and value as any other regional variety of the linguistic system; moreover, it possesses distinguishing characteristics which the AVL have to protect and promote based on local lexicographical and literary tradition, on the true linguistic situation in Valencia and on the normative rules already established in the Normes de Castelló (the Castelló Regulation)”.

As a consequence of this resolution, the standardised Valencian dictionary, Diccionari normatiu valencià, defines Valencian as a “Romance language spoken in the Valencian Community, as well as in Catalonia, the Balearic Islands, the French department of the Pyrénées Orientales, the Principality of Andorra, the eastern flank of Aragon and the Sardinian town of Alghero (unique in Italy), where it receives the name of catalan”

They sure have a way with words lmao, it seems to suggest they're all the same language though, with Valencian being a distinct variant. This passed as their definition 20 years ago

QED. It says one thing and the opposite.
 
Valencians and Catalans are obviously the same culture and language, and this was more noticeable in the late Middle Ages. If you read a document from the 14th century you will not know if it is written in Valencian or Catalan, because it is the same. The debate is as absurd as denying the Castilian conquest of Toledo and the expansion of Castilian language southwards. All modern languages in the Iberian peninsula have their origin in the north. Anyone who has studied the Catalan language knows that Catalan and Valencian are two names for the same language.

Linguists or philologists have already studied the Catalan language in depth, and have divided it into two groups. The Valencian dialects form part of the western group together with Lleida. Thus, the Catalan spoken in Lleida is closer to the dialect of Alacant than to the dialects of Girona. Now it's just political issue among people who just want to spread hate among territories.

I'd like to share this article in English from Robert Ignatius Burns, an American historian who analysed the work of Enric Guinot. Guinot is a Professor of History at the University of Valencia who had an extensive research on the history and demography of the Kingdom of València.
https://www.raco.cat/index.php/Estudis/article/view/237660/319920

“The great majority” of Valencian places settled from Aragon and Catalunya, directly or indirectly, show proportions of at least two-thirds Catalan; the minorities occasionally from Occitania, Castile-speakers, or Navarre are always merely marginal. The mixed populations often show Catalan majorities of 50 to 85% as against an Aragonese 10 to 35%. Such majorities must logically have dictated the dominating language in those places, though chronology and other circumstances must be considered. The end of the thirteenth century brought a stronger immigration, resulting in more absolute numbers of Catalans (70 to 90 %) against Aragonese. Catalan settlers reflect nearly all Catalan regions, but in variable proportions. Catalan became “the language of power,” as for example among the partriciate of the otherwise mixed city of Valencia or in general in otherwise mixed places throughout the kingdom".
 
Last edited:
  • 8
  • 1
Reactions:
Valencians and Catalans are obviously the same culture and language, and this was more noticeable in the late Middle Ages. If you read a document from the 14th century you will not know if it is written in Valencian or Catalan, because it is the same. The debate is as absurd as denying the Castilian conquest of Toledo and the expansion of Castilian language southwards. All modern languages in the Iberian peninsula have their origin in the north. Anyone who has studied the Catalan language knows that Catalan and Valencian are two names for the same language.

Linguists or philologists have already studied the Catalan language in depth, and have divided it into two groups. The Valencian dialects form part of the western group together with Lleida. Thus, the Catalan spoken in Lleida is closer to the dialect of Alacant than to the dialects of Girona. Now it's just political issue among people who just want to spread hate among territories.

I'd like to share this article in English from Robert Ignatius Burns, an American historian who analysed the work of Enric Guinot. Guinot is a Professor of History at the University of Valencia who had an extensive research on the history and demography of the Kingdom of València.
https://www.raco.cat/index.php/Estudis/article/view/237660/319920

“The great majority” of Valencian places settled from Aragon and Catalunya, directly or indirectly, show proportions of at least two-thirds Catalan; the minorities occasionally from Occitania, Castile-speakers, or Navarre are always merely marginal. The mixed populations often show Catalan majorities of 50 to 85% as against an Aragonese 10 to 35%. Such majorities must logically have dictated the dominating language in those places, though chronology and other circumstances must be considered. The end of the thirteenth century brought a stronger immigration, resulting in more absolute numbers of Catalans (70 to 90 %) against Aragonese. Catalan settlers reflect nearly all Catalan regions, but in variable proportions. Catalan became “the language of power,” as for example among the partriciate of the otherwise mixed city of Valencia or in general in otherwise mixed places throughout the kingdom".
How does the later linguistic border factor into this? I've seen maps show that Catalan was never spoken in some of the inland parts of Valencia, was that moslty become Arabic-speaking people lived there or primarily because Aragonese speakers dominated the region?
 
Last edited:
We got that initially, but it got completely messed up when we added the Chinese and Indian pops...

Not sure if it is useful, but let's see. I assume you are already using a log scaling and that is not enough to show variation due to the highly skewed distribution. I found in these cases quantile functions (like percentile) do wonders in allowing to show data with wildly different magnitudes. It shouldn't be costly to compute and would allow a bird's eye view of pop map mode. Sure, you loose a little bit of granularity, but for that I can just select the country.
 
If a log scale doesn't solve the issue of comparatively overpopulated locations in India and China, I can see only two reasons:
- the locations there aren't small enough in comparison to the European ones
- the population estimates used are disproportionately high.

Yes, the Yangtze delta was probably the densest region in the world for the first few years, but not the 10 times denser which might give issues on a logarithmic colouring scale...
 
If a log scale doesn't solve the issue of comparatively overpopulated locations in India and China, I can see only two reasons:
- the locations there aren't small enough in comparison to the European ones
- the population estimates used are disproportionately high.

Yes, the Yangtze delta was probably the densest region in the world for the first few years, but not the 10 times denser which might give issues on a logarithmic colouring scale...

Or it might be that by default the color scale is linear?
 
How does the later linguistic border factor into this? I've seen maps show that Catalan was never spoken in some of the inland parts of Valencia, was that moslty become Arabic-speaking people lived there or primarily because Aragonese speakers dominated the region?
As far as I understand it is more similar to the latter. The conquest of the territories that later became the Kingdom of València was promoted by the Aragonese nobility, who wanted to annex them into the kingdom of Aragon itself. But the king saw an opportunity to curtail the power of the nobles declaring a separate kingdom and allying himself with more urban elements. If I’m not mistaken the Kingdom of València was centered around the city of the same name, and it and the Catalan majority areas of the kingdom had a more “civic” way of doing things. Nonetheless the king had to grant some land to the aragonese nobles, so he granted the interior, which was considerably less valuable, to them. In these lands feudalism was stronger and was populated in the early years with aragonese people.

I think that the cultural/language divide was less strong that it might appear here, as in the early years of the kingdom, the political and economic power resided in the Catalan majority areas, so the language imposed itself and the cultural divide wasn’t as big of an issue as it later became. This all changed with time and subsequent migration waves.

I’m not a historian so I might have gotten some things wrong, but this is what I have read on the topic.
 
Or it might be that by default the color scale is linear?
That is of course the most likely problem, but I agree with a lot of previous posters that that would be a mistake. Nothing in population statistics is linear.

I did not feel the need to expand upon that point before, since others have already done so better than I could ever do.
 
First of all, thank you for these beautiful maps. I am very pleased to see Villapalacios on the map it's lovely small town. I have one correction in La Mancha. The locations of Villapalacios and Alcaraz seem to be reversed, as Villapalacios is southwest of Alcaraz and not north. According to the documents "Privilegio en el que Juan II dona a Rodrigo Manrique los lugares de Cenilla, Matilla, el Pozo, Robledillo y Balazot (1436)" and "Relaciones Topográficas de Felipe II, de 1578", the area given from Alcaraz to Villapalacios is mostly west and southwest of Alcaraz. Also regarding the terrain, Villapalacios is the last major town in La Mancha north of Andalusia and before the border fort/town of Segura de la Sierra, therefore it lies outside the plateau of La Mancha and I would describe the terrain there as hills rather than plateau as you have it correctly on the map if you switch around the names of Alcaraz and Villapalacios or divide the two territories in northeast (Alcaraz) and southwest (Villapalacios). There is a website dedicated to the history of Villapalacios in spanish that you can easily google with all the documents available. Another remark regarding the goods, I know that today the largest produce from Villapalacios is olives again due to its proximity to the (modern) province of Jaen (largest olive producing province). However i have no information on whether that was the case 700 years ago and the area still produces large amounts of grains to this day.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Actually having a geological subgame in which you need to discover ore deposits before developing a mine (with some investing in surveying and a Success/failure rate) would be interesting.

EU IV has a depletion rate for gold deposits, modelling something like that for every mine would be interesting. You may need some investing to keep production rates and you can also need to balance production vs reserves.

It would work better with mines as building rather than RGO, I'm afraid. Otherwise lack of survey/depletion etc may cause loops from and back to a fallback raw material per location.
Thanks for the reply!

I agree that your proposed mechanic for mines would add a lot of depth to the game. There is a mod in Anbennar that (1.36 Doge's Anbennar - Goods & Buildings) that allows for prospecting in mountain and hill provinces at a heavy cost with a chance of devastation and high fail rate.

In my opinion I would love to see that we could change the RGO within logical constraints as the availability of a certain RGO is fundamental to strategic advancements as having cavalry available from domestic production.

Imagine that provinces that are grasslands or steppes could change RGO to horse by investing into a building (i.e. horse breeder that requires horses as input) and have it active for a certain time frame (i.e. several years) before the RGO flips.

What's your take on that?
 
Valencians and Catalans are obviously the same culture and language, and this was more noticeable in the late Middle Ages. If you read a document from the 14th century you will not know if it is written in Valencian or Catalan, because it is the same. The debate is as absurd as denying the Castilian conquest of Toledo and the expansion of Castilian language southwards. All modern languages in the Iberian peninsula have their origin in the north. Anyone who has studied the Catalan language knows that Catalan and Valencian are two names for the same language.

Linguists or philologists have already studied the Catalan language in depth, and have divided it into two groups. The Valencian dialects form part of the western group together with Lleida. Thus, the Catalan spoken in Lleida is closer to the dialect of Alacant than to the dialects of Girona. Now it's just political issue among people who just want to spread hate among territories.

I'd like to share this article in English from Robert Ignatius Burns, an American historian who analysed the work of Enric Guinot. Guinot is a Professor of History at the University of Valencia who had an extensive research on the history and demography of the Kingdom of València.
https://www.raco.cat/index.php/Estudis/article/view/237660/319920

“The great majority” of Valencian places settled from Aragon and Catalunya, directly or indirectly, show proportions of at least two-thirds Catalan; the minorities occasionally from Occitania, Castile-speakers, or Navarre are always merely marginal. The mixed populations often show Catalan majorities of 50 to 85% as against an Aragonese 10 to 35%. Such majorities must logically have dictated the dominating language in those places, though chronology and other circumstances must be considered. The end of the thirteenth century brought a stronger immigration, resulting in more absolute numbers of Catalans (70 to 90 %) against Aragonese. Catalan settlers reflect nearly all Catalan regions, but in variable proportions. Catalan became “the language of power,” as for example among the partriciate of the otherwise mixed city of Valencia or in general in otherwise mixed places throughout the kingdom".
Enrique, si t'agarre et pique jajaja a vore si eixa la coneixes per allí

Yet again giving for granted there was an empty place to fill, the chronicles of the reconquest reflect that most of the valencian urban centers surrendered without a fight, later the conqueror King granted protection to all the inhabitants of the newly created kingdom. So the migrants coming from the northern aragon crown territories didn't suppouse a significant change in demographics, unless an exodus was produced, wich doesn't make any sense.

By the time muslims were expelled by royal decree, 4 centuries had passed and the inhabitants felt valencian, not catalan, as they reflect in their literature, laws and institutions.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
Reactions:
Absolutely astonishing work. I'd like to give some feedback regarding the culture map.
The catalan culture if traced by Catalan language follows a north-south continuum that is not properly represented because of the locations in the border between catalan and aragonese cultures. Particularly, Morella should be considered catalan and Alacañiz could be splitted in two so the eastern location represents the culturally catalan area of Matarranya. The location name could be its capital, Vall-de-roures. This would better represent the linguistic domains, that are even seen today (whose limits are more restricted than they used to be). Below I attach two maps supporting this.

I won't repeat other claims from very good posts already done. But I'd like to insist that, indeed, southern València has some very big locations like Dénia, which could be splitted to add Alacant.

Finally, regarding names:
- Palma de Mallorca -> Palma:
Palma de Mallorca is a common misconception arisen from the mix of Palma (its actual name) and Ciutat de Mallorca, so it should be called just Palma.
I hope the rest of the names are checked to be in catalan including Perpinyà, Eivissa, etc. But I won't elaborate on that considering that you mentioned it is WIP.

Thanks a lot for your work.


1716396294151.png
1716396582286.png
 
Last edited:
  • 3Like
  • 3
  • 2
Reactions: