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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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Thanks for the reply!

I agree that your proposed mechanic for mines would add a lot of depth to the game. There is a mod in Anbennar that (1.36 Doge's Anbennar - Goods & Buildings) that allows for prospecting in mountain and hill provinces at a heavy cost with a chance of devastation and high fail rate.

In my opinion I would love to see that we could change the RGO within logical constraints as the availability of a certain RGO is fundamental to strategic advancements as having cavalry available from domestic production.

Imagine that provinces that are grasslands or steppes could change RGO to horse by investing into a building (i.e. horse breeder that requires horses as input) and have it active for a certain time frame (i.e. several years) before the RGO flips.

What's your take on that?
I really like the idea. For me it sounds like the logical evolution of the materials and good system described. I suspect, however, any reworking of how raw material works may disturb their basic economic model and we may need to wait to Project Caesar having a economic DLC to actually having it so polished. But they are reading these comments so maybe our suggestions can influence a bit this ;)

By the way, horse breeders requiring horse reminded me of the building in Sid Meyers Colonization. Maybe it was an inspiration?
 
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can we make grasslands into farmlands if we develop them enough?
I believe farmlands are supposed to represent areas with favourable farming conditions (good soil quality, agroclimate, water conditions, topography etc.). Turning marshes into farmlands makes sense (historical example: Dutch settlers in Poland draining Vistula lagoon in the XVIth century, turning it into agricultural area with fertile alluvial soils). Changing grasslands into farmlands though wouldn't make much sense.
 
Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
View attachment 1134319
The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
View attachment 1134322
Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
View attachment 1134324
Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
View attachment 1134325
View attachment 1134326
View attachment 1134378
Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
View attachment 1134456
Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
View attachment 1134335
The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
View attachment 1134336
This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
View attachment 1134381
This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
View attachment 1134340

And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!

About the Mudejar communities in Portugal i found the following information:

These are the localities which are documented as having at least a Mudejar community at the height of Mudejar presence in Portugal (start of the 14th century).
IMG_20240523_091742.jpg

In Yellow are the localities whose Mudejar communities disappeared during the 14th century.

In Orange the localities whose Mudejar communities disappeared during the 15th century.

In Red are the parishes whose Mudejar communities disappeared during the 16th century.

Now i don't have any numbers on how many they were and how much is the threshold to appear as striped in the map (I'm assuming 10%) but for the sake of having the map visually correspond with the regional distribution i would make the following changes:

-Reduce the Mudejar percentages in Tomar, Crato, Silves, Odemira and Ourique to be bellow the threshold for appearing as stripped. (Say, 8% average)

-Increase the Mudejar percentage in Leiria, so it goes over the threshold and appears as stripped.

-Make sure Leiria, Torres Vedras, Avis and Elvas are only barely above the threshold, so they disappear very early on (Say 12% average)

-Santarem, Setúbal, Portalegre, Alcácer do Sal, Beja are a middle ground (say, 16% average)

-Make sure that Lisbon, Evora, Moura and the Algarve as a whole, have a significant percentage above the threshold (say 20% average)

Source (in Portuguese):
 
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About the Mudejar communities in Portugal i found the following information:

These are the localities which are documented as having at least a Mudejar community at the height of Mudejar presence in Portugal (start of the 14th century).
View attachment 1137487
In Yellow are the localities whose Mudejar communities disappeared during the 14th century.

In Orange the localities whose Mudejar communities disappeared during the 15th century.

In Red are the parishes whose Mudejar communities disappeared during the 16th century.

Now i don't have any numbers on how many they were and how much is the threshold to appear as striped in the map (I'm assuming 10%) but for the sake of having the map visuall correspond with the regional distribution i would make the following changes:

-Reduce the Mudejar percentages in Tomar, Crato, Silves, Odemira and Ourique to be bellow the threshold for appearing as stripped. (Say, 8% average)

-Increase the Mudejar percentage in Leiria, so it goes over the threshold and appears as stripped.

-Make sure Leiria, Torres Vedras, Avis and Elvas are only barely above the threshold, so they disappear very early on (Say 12% average)

-Santarem, Setúbal, Portalegre, Alcácer do Sal, Beja are a middle ground (say, 16% average)

-Make sure that Lisbon, Evora, Moura and the Algarve as a whole, have a significant percentage above the threshold (say 20% average)

Source (in Portuguese):
Another important detail to add to that are the jewish communities in Portugal. Citing the Wikipedia page on the "History of the Jews in Portugal":

1716454994922.png


In fact, a lot of the little manufacture that existed in Portugal during the late medieval period depended on Jewish and Moorish communities. Citing "An Economic History of Portugal":
1716455140171.png


The Avis Dinasty took into Portugal a lot of the jewish communities expelled from Spain, because it understood they were critical to a lot of the inner workings of the kingdom. It wasn't until King Manuel's reign that the Jewish community was expelled, partly due to local prejudices and partly due to diplomatic pressure from Spain, which was catastrophic to the empire's commerce and manufacture.
 
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I suggest to change Buitrago de Lozoya to only Lozoya, and move that one, plus Peñafiel and Aranda to Segovia
 
@Johan

Random question: peace treaty names will be based on a random location of the winner/loser or can the player chose from a list of names?

Can negotiations be back and forth or dictated?
 
Hi devs! Just want to shout out that, as a colorblind person, I have a lot of trouble distinguishing the colors used on some of these maps (especially the resource maps).

I don’t need to be able to see them in these previews (1337 is FAR from my historical area of expertise!), but I want to make sure there are good colorblind-friendly options once the game releases.
 
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Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
View attachment 1134319
The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
View attachment 1134322
Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
View attachment 1134324
Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
View attachment 1134325
View attachment 1134326
View attachment 1134378
Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
View attachment 1134456
Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
View attachment 1134335
The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
View attachment 1134336
This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
View attachment 1134381
This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
View attachment 1134340

And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!


Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
View attachment 1134319
The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
View attachment 1134322
Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
View attachment 1134324
Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
View attachment 1134325
View attachment 1134326
View attachment 1134378
Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
View attachment 1134456
Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
View attachment 1134335
The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
View attachment 1134336
This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
View attachment 1134381
This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
View attachment 1134340

And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
Hi, shouldn’t the culture around Valencia be Valenciano and not Catalan?
 
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Maybe there could be more sugar in Granada?
This source has a map for sugar production in the Mediterranean before it all disappeared to the colonies.
It looks like there could be more than just one sugar location in Spain, especially since the source also says that sugar production there expanded between 1300 and 1500.
 
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Although the indicated region belonged to the lordship of Villena, the homonymous city is located outside the Crown of Castile, in the Crown of Aragon. It would be more correct to call it Almansa (an important city in the region, especially at that time, because it was practically on the border with Aragon).
 

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Although the indicated region belonged to the lordship of Villena, the homonymous city is located outside the Crown of Castile, in the Crown of Aragon. It would be more correct to call it Almansa (an important city in the region, especially at that time, because it was practically on the border with Aragon).
Villena was a Castilian city, just very close to the Kingdom of València. There were some disputes over Murcian towns, but the borders between the late 14th and early 18th century were like this map.

Valencia-map-2.png
 

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Probably too late, but I wanted to dcrop this here for reference just in case:

I'm from Asturias, with roots in the (galician-speaking) west.
I will preface by noting that asturias 2 very distinctive geographic areas, the coast and the interior. The locations in Asturias seem to be drawn "vertically" instead of horizontally, which would better convey this difference, because actually several of them could then be made flatlands in the coast and more of them could be mountains in the interior, instead of going for the "hills" middleground. Asturias is extremely dramatic in the change of landscape which on top of being aesthetic, has completely influenced the economic, social and historic aspects of Asturias for milleania. I belive there is a point in adjusting the locations to better reflect this, as it could have an impact in the gameplay (battles, economic development, etc.).

Specifically:

  1. Castropol:
    1. I understand from the population numbers that this may not be feasible (although I am not sure if those numbers are very representative, they seem too low), but Castropol should probably be 2 different locations, one in the coast centered in castropol and one in the interior centered in Grandas/ Os Oscos. Castropol would be a flatland, and Grandas/Os Oscos would be mountains.
    2. In terms of goods, Grandas/Os Oscos would keep the copper, and Castrropol would likely produce fish
    3. In terms of culture, I cannot see how in the 14th century there would be anyone there not speaking Galician. As far as I known there are no records whatsoever of any asturian being spoken at that time (or after) there, not even in official documents as we can find very often east of Navia.
  2. Tineo/Avilés
    1. Here the only thing I would change would be to give the area of Tineo where the O is to Avilés and give the part of Avilés where the A and V are to Tineo, to stress on the idea of horizontality. Aviles then would be indeed hilly, but there could be an argument for it being a flatland if half of Galicia are also flatlands. The landscape is not really that different. Making Aviles a flatland would probably be the only reason for the change, other than to make it more aesthetically pleasing with any Asturians with OCD.
  3. Avilés/Oviedo
    1. Going down the same path, I would give Oviedo a bigger area, taking from Avilés the area from the border of Oviedo to where the name starts, and then give the part of Oviedo where the O is to Mieres (more on that below).
  4. Oviedo/Mieres
    1. With the changes above, there would be mountains on both sides of the Asturian part of the Cantabrian mountains, which is the only thing that makes sense, quite frankly.
    2. I am not sure if Mieres is the right town for the location's name. I would have thought more "historical" villages like Lena would have been more important at that time
  5. Llanes
    1. I would make Llanes a mountain area. The cantabrian mountains really do get to the sea in that area. Literally 1000+ meter high mountains 4 kms away from the sea next to the "El Fitu" peak, for example.
 
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Some feedback.

I think the two southern provinces of Navarre (Tudela and Olite) should be majority Aragonese, specially the southernmost one, Tudela. Navarro-aragonese romance was spoken there by that time, and Navarrese Romance was the court language of the Kingdom of Navarre. Maybe also a minority in Estella and Sangüesa. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_navarro

I have the feeling the Basque culture is too extended in La Rioja. I'd like to see proof that by 1337 Euskara was spoken there, but I don't have the contrary evidence either, and we don't yet know how much does the % of a pop have to be to show up in the map, so I'll leave it at that.

But the most important thing is the climatic map. All the eastern coast of Iberia, and the Balearic Islands, is def. mediterranian, not cold arid. Being from Valencia, the climate feels very different here and in coastal Catalonia from Castille. Hot and wet summers, warm winters.
 
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