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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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I agree with your point that Santiago de Compostela and the rest of Galicia should be a 'Oceanic' climate, as the precipitation numbers are too high and the biome is not Mediterranean. But I do not agree that ALL regions in the Csb climate zone should automatically be excluded from the 'Mediterranean' climate.

The Csa and Csb climates often do exist in close proximity such as in California, South-Western Australia, South Africa, Chile and indeed (although Csb is admittedly quite rare) in the Mediterranean. Kütahya in western Turkey is an example of a Csb climate in the Mediterranean. Some places in the aforementioned regions are Csb, have low precipitation numbers and a Mediterranean biome. Examples are Cape Town, San Jose in California and Albany in Western Australia. I think most people would agree with classifying these places within the 'Mediterranean' climate. There would therefore be differences in classification within a Köppen climate zone (in this case Csb). So I think we should take a closer look at the climates of Northern Portugal and Spain to see whether or not they should be included in the Mediterranean climate or the Oceanic climate.

As the main argument for including Santiago de Compostela within the Oceanic climate was the large amount of rain and the differing biome, I looked at the precipitation numbers and the biomes for Iberia.
View attachment 1135160View attachment 1135154

The climate map used for Iberia corresponds neatly with one Köppen map of Europe as seen in 1A and 1B. The extent of the arid climate, however, depends on the exact formula used as seen in 1D, which has quite a bit more regions within the temperate climate. However none of these maps correspond to the precipitation map (1E) nor the biome map (1C), which includes red, brown and orange regions within the Mediterranean biome. Especially the coast of Portugal receives quite a bit less rain compared to the northern regions. Places like Nazaré and Figueira da Foz both have a Csb climate (651 mm/year 15.0 ˚C average temp and 724 mm/year 15.4 ˚C average temp respectively). They are more comparable to Montpellier (639 mm/year 15.5 ˚C average temp) than to Santiago de Compostela (1526 mm/year and 14.1 ˚C average temp). Both Montpellier and the Portugese cities are also within the Mediterranean biome (1C). Montpellier is included in the Mediterranean climate so why should these Portugese cities not be included? Similar arguments can be made for reducing the amount of Oceanic climate in northern Spain as you yourself have already pointed out.

The biome and precipitation maps (1C and 1E) mostly overlap, which is why I would suggest taking these factors as leading for deciding the border between the Oceanic and Mediterranean/(Semi-)Arid climates, rather than the köppen climate borders (Cs vs Cf), which can be, as you have shown, quite misleading. This is seen in 2A and 2B, where I have overlapped the precipitation map with the locations maps (apologies for the bad editing, the maps did not quite fit).

Sources:
Wikipedia for the climate data
The ecoregions.appspot.co for 1C
Trasobares, Antoni & Palahi, Marc & Marey-Perez, Manuel & Diaz-Balteiro, Luis. (2014). Computer-based tools for supporting forest management in Spain. m/ for the biomes for 1E and 1F
File:Köppen-Geiger Climate Classification Map of the European Union.png for 1A
File:Köppen climate types of Iberia.png for 1D
This map is, in my opinion, the one that shows by far the most accurate depiction of how the climate of the Iberian Peninsula really is like.
1717846280943.png


However, considering that the standards to this map are made specific to capture Iberia's specificities at best granularity, it may be problematic to simply stamp it to Koppen-Geiger's classifications for the rest of the world, so i make two suggestions:

Suggestion A: Adjusted to fit with the already existing game climate layout.
1717846172714.png

Suggestion B: More in line with the actual sistem's classification.
1717846184003.png
 
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Maybe it's a little bit too small but it would be cool if you added Couto Misto as a country and a location especially if you decide to make the locations smaller (which I highly recommend cause they're bigger in comparison to the rest of Europe).
 
Maybe it's a little bit too small but it would be cool if you added Couto Misto as a country and a location especially if you decide to make the locations smaller (which I highly recommend cause they're bigger in comparison to the rest of Europe).
I don't know if you're asking for this ironically or not, but this issue has been addressed multiple times on this thread. It's literally 26 square kilometers of a historical curiosity, irrelevant from a strategical point of view.
 
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Can we get a Dynasty Map for Iberia now? I know its visible on the main Characters TT but Id like a zoomed in one :)
Sure, this is the current status:

Dynasties.png


I'll write a longer post in the other thread, with other variants and possibilities.
 
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Heyyy! Great work!

I want to mention that if you plan on drawing a France situation with lots of vassals and non integrated-late feudal bodies, you should try to transmit it also into Iberia. I'd like to mention 2 example from the Crown of Aragon, than I know a little better. One is the county of Pallars Sobirà (literally High Pallars), which remained a feudal vassal of the crown until a revolt that lead to its integration in 1487. The second one is the county of Empúries, which was in a similar situation until 1401, when its count died without heirs, allowing the king Martí l'Humà to integrate the county into the crown lands in 1402.

In essence, the XIV and XV centuries are very intense in the race for integration, defeudalization and revolt in Aragon and Catalonia (The Catalan Civil War took place between 1462 and 1472) and it's a great oportunity for adding flavour and playing with the base mecanichs of game around those conflicts and period. Having there Andorra and not these other counties is a bit of an anachronistic cherry picking.

Hope it helps!!
 
Heyyy! Great work!

I want to mention that if you plan on drawing a France situation with lots of vassals and non integrated-late feudal bodies, you should try to transmit it also into Iberia. I'd like to mention 2 example from the Crown of Aragon, than I know a little better. One is the county of Pallars Sobirà (literally High Pallars), which remained a feudal vassal of the crown until a revolt that lead to its integration in 1487. The second one is the county of Empúries, which was in a similar situation until 1401, when its count died without heirs, allowing the king Martí l'Humà to integrate the county into the crown lands in 1402.

In essence, the XIV and XV centuries are very intense in the race for integration, defeudalization and revolt in Aragon and Catalonia (The Catalan Civil War took place between 1462 and 1472) and it's a great oportunity for adding flavour and playing with the base mecanichs of game around those conflicts and period. Having there Andorra and not these other counties is a bit of an anachronistic cherry picking.

Hope it helps!!
Hi! We don't really think that the political situation of France would be akin to that of the Iberian kingdoms, as the feudal system worked on a different way. This is why we have portrayed the latter as more unitary kingdoms (on the surface), and the former much more divided. Thanks for your comment, in any case!
 
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You guys are awesome, not only you listened to us but you were able to almost double the size of Iberia in a few weeks, keep up the good work!

My only question is why hasn't the Northern Castile region been divided in Leon/Old Castile/Navarre(or something like that) considering how big it is now seems pretty unbalanced compared to the other ones
 
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It would be very nice if you added Asturleonese names also if a country of Asturleonese culture owns the land, similar to what's done with other cultures in EU4.

I'm kinda an amateur linguist and have studied a lot of old Asturleonese, I can provide some place names, using historical spelling:
Asturias - Asturies
Castropol
Tineo
Avilés
Oviedo - Uviedo
Mieres
Gijón - Xixón
Llanes
Villablino - Vitsablinu
Riaño - Riañu
León - Llión
Benavente
Zamora - Çamora
Sanabria - Senabria
Santander - Sanander
Bierzo - Bierzu
Cáceres - Caçris
Badajoz - Badayúz
Miranda del Douro
Bragança - Bergancia
Sahagún - Safagún
 
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So, this is probably way too late, but I kind of forgot to make a topography analysis for Iberia.


Summary:
  • General rearrangements of all categories, usually shifted towards neighboring locations.
  • The wetlands for Huelva should shift more towards Sevilla.
  • This post focuses more on the layout as-is, disregarding the previous wasteland suggestions by myself and @Thrudgelmir2333 his earlier post.

As usual, potential 'ridge crossings' as purple lines. Again, I made my topographical suggestions independently of these crossings, so feel free to ignore them while interpreting these maps.
Current Topography according to TintoSuggested Topography'Changelog' of suggested topography
View attachment 1181737View attachment 1181738View attachment 1181739

(Remade the TRI scheme so interpretation for grouping flatlands with rolling hills, plateaus and irregular plateaus,..., is more obvious
Terrain Ruggedness IndexLinear colorscale DEM
(0 - 2500 m)
Exaggerated Lower Topography
(0 - 2500m)
View attachment 1181740View attachment 1181743View attachment 1181744
Wouldn't it be better to post this in the feedback thread?
 
So, this is probably way too late, but I kind of forgot to make a topography analysis for Iberia.


Summary:
  • General rearrangements of all categories, usually shifted towards neighboring locations.
  • The wetlands for Huelva should shift more towards Sevilla.
  • This post focuses more on the layout as-is, disregarding the previous wasteland suggestions by myself and @Thrudgelmir2333 his earlier post.

As usual, potential 'ridge crossings' as purple lines. Again, I made my topographical suggestions independently of these crossings, so feel free to ignore them while interpreting these maps.
Current Topography according to TintoSuggested Topography'Changelog' of suggested topography
View attachment 1181737View attachment 1181738View attachment 1181739

(Remade the TRI scheme so interpretation for grouping flatlands with rolling hills, plateaus and irregular plateaus,..., is more obvious
Terrain Ruggedness IndexLinear colorscale DEM
(0 - 2500 m)
Exaggerated Lower Topography
(0 - 2500m)
View attachment 1181740View attachment 1181743View attachment 1181744
If I could offer some suggestions based on your proposal:
How would you feel about changing:
-Lugo to plateau
-Lalin to Hills
-Cangas to mountain
-Reinosa to hills
-Keeping Calahorra as plains as the city itself is by the riverside (although I believe there a better ways to divide La Rioja location wise to better separate the mountains from the river as I stated in an earlier post)
 
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I'm interested in what the province control map mode looks like for Castile with its capital landlocked and not close to any major rivers. How well does the provincial control system work with a capital in Madrid or Toledo? Does a capital in Toledo give you very low control over the north and south of Spain?