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Tinto Maps #20 - 27th of September 2024 - The Steppes

Hello, and welcome one more week to the weekly encounter for map lovers! This week it’s also directed at horse lovers because we will be looking at the Eurasian Steppes, plus the Urals! So let’s start with the maps without further ado.

Countries:
Countries.jpg

Colored Wastelands.jpg

A glorious, Golden Horde! It is at its power peak, under the reign of Uzbeg Khan, so it's a much more menacing presence for its neighbors. However, it has its some internal issues that need to be managed, as you’ll notice in some of the maps, and in the future when we talk about the content for Hordes. The Golden Horde also heads its own IO, the Tatar Yoke, as shown in a previous Tinto Maps:

Tatar Yoke.jpg

We have already corrected the Ruthenian countries that are under the Horde’s Yoke, although we still have to correct the Russian principalities, which will be done in the corresponding Tinto Maps review. We’re also aware that we need to improve a bit the coloring of the IO, to mark not only the Golden Horde as the overlord of these countries, but also that Muscovy holds the title of the Grand Principality of Vladimir, which makes it the ‘enforcer’ of the Yoke. These fixes are also planned to be done in a few weeks.

Societies of Pops:
Societies of Pops.jpg

Societies of Pops 2.jpg .jpg

A bit up to the north, we have some Societies of Pops! This means that the territory of Western Siberia won’t be empty land, but will be populated by these people, which can be interacted with.

BTW, I’m not showing this week a dynasty map because, well, only the Borgijin dynasty rules over the lands of the Golden Horde, of course!


Locations:
Locations.jpg

Locations Western Siberia.jpg

Locations 3.jpg

Locations 4.jpg

Locations 5.jpg

Tons of locations today… You might notice that the density location is in a progression from west to east, from the most densely settled areas to the less settled ones. You may also notice that we’ve followed a design of ‘settler corridors’ in Western Siberia, setting those parts of the land that were habitable, usually on river valleys.

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Provinces 2.jpg


Areas:
Areas.jpg


Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain is interesting here, as there are two main ecological areas. The first is the Steppes, Flatlands with Sparse and Grasslands vegetation, with either Cold Arid or Continental climates. And then we have the Siberian Arctics Forests, which are completely different, of course. On a note, the Urals were set as Hills, as they’re a quite settleable area, but we’ll probably make a review with your feedback, and add some mountains there.

Development:
Development.jpg

The whole region is not very developed, you might notice the difference with India, from last week’s Tinto Maps.

Harbors:
Harbors.jpg

There are some harbors in the Steppe region… In the Black Sea and Caspian Sea, of course! As usual, we’re open to feedback on this matter.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Plenty of cultures! One note: Although we planned to work on the religious and cultural minorities of the region during the summer, we ended up not having enough time to add them. So what we’ll be doing today is showing the rough outline of ‘cultural spheres’, and then we’ll add the minorities during the review of the region. In that sense, feedback is very well received.

With that said the only note that needs to be made in terms of the cultural design is that we divided the Tatar cultural group into some differentiated regional cultures, being Crimean, Mishary, Kazani, and Astrakhani. We’re also aware that some of the cultures, as Mari and Chuvash, might be a bit displaced, as noted in the Russian Tinto Maps, so we’ll review and correct that with your feedback.


Religions:
Religions.jpg

Regarding Religions, the matter is a bit worse, as the big Sunni blob is just because the main religion of the Golden Horde is Islam, after the conversion of Uzbeg Khan, but that’s obviously incorrect. Also, as we have been able to forecast development time on how Pagan divisions will be during this autumn, we will make a comprehensive review of the region as well, to get a good distribution of ‘Shamanist’ Paganism, Tengrism, and Sunni Islam.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

Raw Materials 2.jpg

Raw Materials 3.jpg

Regarding the raw materials, the Steppes have plenty of Livestock and Horses, quite logically, although there are regions with some other goods. And up to the north, the main materials are Lumber and Fur. Apart from that, I want to mention the mineral hub in the Ural Mountains, with plenty of Copper, Iron, Gold, Lead, and Coal. That makes it a very mid and late-game interesting spot, and playing as Muscovy/Russia, I’ll tell you that you definitely want to expand into that region, as it will fulfill some of your material needs by that time.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

Markets! Big region, with lots of markets, although you may noticed that we changed the coloring of the locations that have 0% market access, which is the case in several areas. In any case, the market centers are Kaffa, Astrakhan, Saray-Jük, Kunya Urgench, Samarkand, Almaty, and Chimgi Tura. BTW, these names are much easier to notice in the game’s UI, as they’re beside the market centers:

Markets 2.jpg


Population:
Population.jpg

This week we’re showing only the country population mapmode, as there are some location numbers here and there which are failing, due to the already known issue with our pop editor (and which are on the way to be fixed). In any case, the whole population of the region is around 6.5-7M, of which around 6.3M are part of the Golden Horde. As I said, it’s a menacing country…

And that’s all for today! This is going to be my last Tinto Maps in a while, as I’ll be on vacation for 3 weeks during October (you might have noticed that I didn’t have any during summer), so one of the Content Designers in the team, @Roger Corominas , will step in and be in charge of the next 4 Tinto Maps. It’s in good hands, as Roger is an Experienced CD, who has been working and focused on Project Caesar for more than 3 years, at this point (this is why you might not know him from EU4, as other CDs in our team). In any case, he will be starting with the regions of Xinjiang, mostly ruled by the Chagatai Khanate, and Tibet.

I’ll keep reading and answering you during next week, and then I’ll be back in a month from now. See you!
 
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In Golden Horde everyone was Tatar. But when the Horde fractured people associated themselves with the new lords. Unfortunately there is no possibility for deeper cultural/linguistical research as not a lot of information survived to our days. This is why I believe it is better to do it this way as it will lead to more plausible futures.
I feel like this is really just evidence there should only be one Tatar culture (maybe divided into two, one sedentary and one nomad), and after the horde breaks up each of the breakaways can go through a series of steps to split its own culture off.
 
I feel like this is really just evidence there should only be one Tatar culture (maybe divided into two, one sedentary and one nomad), and after the horde breaks up each of the breakaways can go through a series of steps to split its own culture off.
As it was proven, devs are fully agains cultures that have a size spanning multiple areas. The Ruthenian was broken up for example. So I think united Tatar culture is definitely out of the question.

Also the series of steps to split is a really fake mechanic. It is not proved that hordes did something actively to create their own cultures.
 
My proposal on correcting the lines between Tatar cultures. I based it majorly on the Khanates that broke from the Golden Horde as Tatars of that time associated more with the Khanate they were living in rather than something else. Only after the defeat of Khanates when they became settled, did their cultures start to drift apart
View attachment 1202359View attachment 1202358

Kazan Tatars:
Primarily were settled around Kazan.
Yelabuga was built by the Bolgar people and was captured with the Bolgar by the Golden Horde. Should be part of the Golden Horde and have Kazan Tatar culture.
Vyatskiye Polyany - was controlled by Bolgars/Tatars until the 16th century. was populated by Udmurt and Tatar people
Döbyaz and Oli Baraza - built by Tatars in the 16th century.

AD_4nXchG3DdlqanDrn0QnAJ0zqw7ORRek6b73fnvaknVKv5Ig7bgTAoypAFOOScvp6HL3qBMPWwC-3TuaLSEjZD1K68qA08m3B7LCoPJfo1cEkXNHp-yrYJzl4r0pOwJ7IjuxNhRLSMoh9_n-ZeuBDpeM34BFNO
AD_4nXcv1WpnJYeAhfihgpKQ-u_Ex9AVuGJ4wxxXdapCRsjV3bkQyxG-KgvRmNtThx5WWkS-mTHuXi3m5kHPQTRAvUDFdq_MVG5hdfMvP-fW0QY0aHGJJVwCkWOZmAhMs278EEsO8frlGbBNHnALbkBcLV8fTdUt
View attachment 1202361

South of the Volga River were populated by Nogay people.
The south-Eastern border is followed by the Bolshoy Kimel River as some middle ground between all proposals of borders of Kazan Khanate.
A lot of modern scientific research argues that Kazan Khanate did control the region until modern Samara.

My proposal:
View attachment 1205725
Added Chuvash in Oli Baraza to represent people living in Arsk. The province should be remained to Arsk

Mishar Tatars:
The south border should follow around the borders of the Great Horde. Volga was populated along the river banks, but right after them was Nogay controlled steppes
As Saray al-Jadid remained part of the Great Horde I think it should be Mishar culture
My proposal:
View attachment 1205724

Nogai Tatars:

Same idea with borders with other Tatars, Nogay people did not control up to the banks of the Volga River, but they were right beside it so I made a one location padding between the river and the Nogay people. But I agree with a border right near the Tobol and Yaik rivers as it will make this culture way too wide.
View attachment 1205726

Bashkir:
It is important to remember that a lot of Tatar people migrated to their lands under the control of the Russian Empire as a way of colonisation by relocating armies. Thats why modern maps of Bashkir people are a bit skewed. For my map, I have mainly used a map of Bashkir Kantons in 1855, a map of Bashkir families with cities, and various maps of the indigenous people of Ural.
View attachment 1202365View attachment 1202381View attachment 1202383
Additional info: Bisert was built to defend against revolts of the Bashkir people. Yektul was under Bashkir family

My proposal:
View attachment 1202380
Mari people on the top


Astrakhan Tatars:
I think Circassian people were underrepresented.
View attachment 1202390
The border with other Tatars follows the Volga, the Don, and minor rivers.
Rechnoye or Saray Batu (I believe it was somewhere there) was the old capital of the Great Horde

My proposal:
View attachment 1205723

Crimea Tatars:
I think Budjak should have a Tatar culture but with a low population.
My proposal:
View attachment 1202389

tweaked this map a little bit to include both river banks to one culture as they were densely populated. And the borders between Khanates include both sides
 
And as far as I know all the cities had strong, Russian, Mongolian, Greek, Bashkir minorities in them. Also Mokhshi had Mordva people and Kazan was multiethnic.


But to answer to all I think it is wrong to compare Turkish culture and Tatar. Even if the game will create Kipchak culture, where will it go? Currently nobody calls themselves Kipchak as to my knowledge. All Tatars are Crimean, Kazani, Astrakhani and etc. Yet for Turkish this didn’t happen. And it would be also wrong to say that nomads assimilated the settled people. So I believe all tatars associated themselves with the khanate they lived in. In Golden Horde everyone was Tatar. But when the Horde fractured people associated themselves with the new lords. Unfortunately there is no possibility for deeper cultural/linguistical research as not a lot of information survived to our days. This is why I believe it is better to do it this way as it will lead to more plausible futures.
Kipchak culture is not necessary here, the main problem of having Crimean, Kazani and Astrakhani culture is that they are all regional based cultures, or to be more precisely city based. It's like to further divide the Turkish culture into Bursa, Ankara, Konya and etc. I suggest to use the name Mishar(or whatever names) as the sole rep of all of the Tatar Turkic language speaking city dwellers of Golden Horde, and place the minorities(Greeks, Rus, Ossetians and of course the Mongols) in the cities alongside with them. And in the mean time, create something to rep all the nomadic people of the horde.
If it is possible, they could employ some mechanics to fracture the Mishar culture in the later themes.
 
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I suggest to use the name Mishar(or whatever names) as the sole rep of all of the Tatar Turkic language speaking city dwellers of Golden Horde
Mishar as a representation of the Tatar Turkic language?

Mishar Tatars are highly different from the cities of Kazan and Crimea region. They have formed on the shores of the Volga River and migrated north to the Tsna and Mokshi Rivers. Ukek and Mokhshi are Mishar Tatar cities. But Kazan, Astrakhan, Azov and others are definitely not Mishar Tatar.
 
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It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine concening Areas around Volga - Samara represented here, Samara and Saratov states in case of EU4. In both games now they look like modern Russian regions, spanning across the Volga. While in the EU4 timeframe those 2 cities were centers of Russian gubernias going along the right (Saratov) and left (Samara) banks of the Volga, also representing different stages of Russian steppe colonization, the left bank being settled later. Considering that Volga is a huge natural barrier and lacked bridges at the time, I suggest maybe representing regions around the area more like imperial gubernias?
 
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Mishar as a representation of the Tatar Turkic language?

Mishar Tatars are highly different from the cities of Kazan and Crimea region. They have formed on the shores of the Volga River and migrated north to the Tsna and Mokshi Rivers. Ukek and Mokhshi are Mishar Tatar cities. But Kazan, Astrakhan, Azov and others are definitely not Mishar Tatar.
Are you 100% sure about this? Because as far as I know it, most present day kipchak languages within Russia border are highly mutually intelligible, people of Kazan Tatars and kumyks from northren Caucasus are having no trouble communicating with each other, and that's after few hundred years of independent development. Only Crimean Tatars got some differences here and that's because of later intense Ottoman influences. So I dont' see why there can't be an unified culture for the city dwellers within Golden Horde.
 
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Yes. E.g., in 19th century Kazanis ended up not recognising themselves as Tatars at all. If anything, they used a Muslim identity when prompted not to identify by town.
19th century is about 500 years later than the starting year of 1337, I'm not sure if its appropriate to compare them in this way.
 
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Are you 100% sure about this?
Yes. Because Mishar tatars are Tatars from a specific area. Even still they are considered separate culture and dialect. Even now in Tatarstan they consider themselves separate from Kazan Tatars. Mishar has never meant all Tatars. It is Tatars of a specific region of middle Volga, between modern Syzran and Volgograd. And up north to Mokhshi. It is debated, but their name could have been from Meshcherya people, who also lived there. Mutual intelligibility doesn’t matter here at all. They considered themselves separate. Nobody calls Turkish people Ankaran to represent city dwellers. Not every one lived in Ankara. Same thing here. Mishar Tatars region is much smaller than the Golden Horde. It is absolutely wrong to call everyone in the Golden Horde Mishar just because they live in a city.

I personally don’t understand why you are trying to label people you clearly never heard about. That really offends me.
 
Yes. Because Mishar tatars are Tatars from a specific area. Even still they are considered separate culture and dialect. Even now in Tatarstan they consider themselves separate from Kazan Tatars. Mishar has never meant all Tatars. It is Tatars of a specific region of middle Volga, between modern Syzran and Volgograd. And up north to Mokhshi. It is debated, but their name could have been from Meshcherya people, who also lived there. Mutual intelligibility doesn’t matter here at all. They considered themselves separate. Nobody calls Turkish people Ankaran to represent city dwellers. Not every one lived in Ankara. Same thing here. Mishar Tatars region is much smaller than the Golden Horde. It is absolutely wrong to call everyone in the Golden Horde Mishar just because they live in a city.

I personally don’t understand why you are trying to label people you clearly never heard about. That really offends me.
Funny so many people gets offended on a game forum.
I don't think you are 100% sure about this, as you are using the 19th century nationalist thing to apply to the Tatars in the 14th century. Back to the days self perception was trivial, If self perception is important here then the bulk of people in Golden Horde would still consider themselves Mongols, the important factors when considering culture was language and religion, especially religion. As I said the city dwellers of Turkic speaking people along the Volga spoke a mutually intelligible language, if you want to single out one Meshcherya culture then its fine by me, but I just don't see difference between the culture of cities like Kazan and Astrakhan, they were river connected, under the same regime and having same language with same religion.
And I'm using the Turkish example because there is a double standard here, as you are dividing the Tartar culture into categories based on the regions or cities they dwell but not doing the same thing to the Turks in Anatolia or anywhere else. May be you should read some of the threads before gets offended.
 
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As I said the city dwellers of Turkic speaking people along the Volga spoke a mutually intelligible language, if you want to single out one Meshcherya culture then its fine by me, but I just don't see difference between the culture of cities like Kazan and Astrakhan, they were river connected, under the same regime and having same language with same religion.
Same thing across the border among Russians. Nevertheless, Russians have been split into multiple cultures. This is a design decision. Fragmenting the Tatar culture is the equivalent decision.
 
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Yes. Because Mishar tatars are Tatars from a specific area. Even still they are considered separate culture and dialect. Even now in Tatarstan they consider themselves separate from Kazan Tatars. Mishar has never meant all Tatars. It is Tatars of a specific region of middle Volga, between modern Syzran and Volgograd. And up north to Mokhshi. It is debated, but their name could have been from Meshcherya people, who also lived there. Mutual intelligibility doesn’t matter here at all. They considered themselves separate. Nobody calls Turkish people Ankaran to represent city dwellers. Not every one lived in Ankara. Same thing here. Mishar Tatars region is much smaller than the Golden Horde. It is absolutely wrong to call everyone in the Golden Horde Mishar just because they live in a city.

I personally don’t understand why you are trying to label people you clearly never heard about. That really offends me.
if you allow me to correct
in the game period, the Mishars are the Tatars of the right bank of the Volga.
The Burtases are from pre-Mongol history.
 
Yes. E.g., in 19th century Kazanis ended up not recognising themselves as Tatars at all. If anything, they used a Muslim identity when prompted not to identify by town.
Tatars is the Russian name for all nomads, then Muslim Turks, and simply Turks. Which was later adopted by the elites of the former Bulgaria.

as with the Uyghurs, who originally also designated non-Muslim Turks in the corresponding region.

And they were also adopted as a self-designation at about the same time as Tatars.

in the Volga region it was generally interesting.
If Orthodox = Russian.
If the Muslim Bulgars were baptized, then they remained in the eyes of those around them "Muslims" = Tatars, but baptized.

The Chuvash, Udmurts, and Mari were baptized very superficially, and in reports they remained local pagans.

But the Chuvash, Udmurts, and Mari who accepted Islam were already considered by those around them - Tatars. Because The adoption of Islam in the 16th-19th centuries was a conscious process at the grassroots level, usually under the influence of Tatar artisans who worked seasonally in the villages.
 
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Tatars is the Russian name for all nomads, then Muslim Turks, and simply Turks. Which was later adopted by the elites of the former Bulgaria.
And this "later" happened only in Soviet Union. In Imperial Russia they identified themselves as Bulgars and Kazanli and certainly not as Mishari.
 
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Funny so many people gets offended on a game forum.
I don't think you are 100% sure about this, as you are using the 19th century nationalist thing to apply to the Tatars in the 14th century. Back to the days self perception was trivial, If self perception is important here then the bulk of people in Golden Horde would still consider themselves Mongols, the important factors when considering culture was language and religion, especially religion. As I said the city dwellers of Turkic speaking people along the Volga spoke a mutually intelligible language, if you want to single out one Meshcherya culture then its fine by me, but I just don't see difference between the culture of cities like Kazan and Astrakhan, they were river connected, under the same regime and having same language with same religion.
And I'm using the Turkish example because there is a double standard here, as you are dividing the Tartar culture into categories based on the regions or cities they dwell but not doing the same thing to the Turks in Anatolia or anywhere else. May be you should read some of the threads before gets offended.
In the Golden Horde in 1337, it is necessary to distinguish
1) the townspeople of the Bulgar Ulus - there were many Bulgars left there
2) the Tatar population of the Mokhshi Ulus - the same Mishars
3) the urban population of the lower Volga - there was an international and Islamic culture
4) the Finno-Ugric vassal tribes
5) the pagan Bashkirs
6) the Turkic nomadic population of other Uluses, Islamized very superficially. The question is how to distinguish and reflect it? There was definitely no cultural unity there.
7) Crimea - where there is a large share of the Mediterranean genotype.

And we must remember that the share of the urban population was minimal, and it did not survive the Civil Wars in the Horde and the devastation of Tamerlane.
But the game is unlikely to reflect this historical aspect.
 
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Same thing across the border among Russians. Nevertheless, Russians have been split into multiple cultures. This is a design decision. Fragmenting the Tatar culture is the equivalent decision.
This has gone too far, I just summary my suggestions
1. The court culture in Golden Horde should be Mongol, although I see many against this idea.
2. A one single culture for the nomad Tartars people, this is perhaps the most homogenous part of the ulus.
3. Stuff the cities with the historical minority cultures like Mongolians, Greeks, Ossetians, Rus, Persian, Arabics and etc.
4. A mainstream Tartar culture for the Turkic speaking sedentary population of lower Volga and other big cities, with strings of Tartar minorities on the borders.
 
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While currently Özbeg Khan is definitely in a dominant position over the Golden Horde as the ruler of the Blue Horde, the Grey and White Hordes had their own hereditary rulers through the lines of Shiban and Orda Khans respectively, and did try to push their claims over the Blue Horde (and so the entirety of the Golden Horde/Ulug Ulus) during the Great Troubles.

I would suggest that the Golden Horde/Ulug Ulus should be represented by the Jochids of the Blue, Grey and White Hordes, under a "Golden Horde" or "Ulug Ulus" International Organization (separate from the Tatar Yoke IO, though connected via leader of the Golden Horde/Ulug Ulus IO), with it's own mechanics regarding leadership over the Golden Horde/Ulug Ulus (during the Great Troubles, this would also include the other claimant hordes, trying to take leadership of the Golden Horde/Ulug Ulus).

All the Jochid hordes/ulus' should also be able to take independent action on foreign policy, even if they weren't the leader of the IO. For example, the White Horde intervened in the Kaidu-Kublai war.

Implementing this suggestion would add an extra layer of flavor and challenge for playing the Jochids and eventually trying to unite into the same tag of Golden Horde/Ulug Ulus, given you survive the Great Troubles...

This would also perfectly fit into the split of the Mongol forces in the Golden Horde/Ulug Ulus, as I've noted here



Updated map (also includes minor border changes in the East with the Chagatai, Ögedei Ulus and Kyrgyz):

Countries.png


Locations:
Locations.png



 
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While currently Özbeg Khan is definitely in a dominant position over the Golden Horde as the ruler of the Blue Horde, the White Horde had their own hereditary Jochid rulers through the line of Orda Khan, and did try to push their claims over the Blue Horde (and so the entirety of the Golden Horde) during the Great Troubles.

I would definitely say that the Golden Horde/Ulug Ulus should be represented by the Jochid Blue and White Hordes, under a "Golden Horde" or "Ulug Ulus" International Organization (separate from the Tatar Yoke IO), with it's own mechanics regarding leadership over the Golden Horde/Ulug Ulus (during the Great Troubles, this would also include the other claimant hordes, trying to take leadership of the Golden Horde/Ulug Ulus).

Implementing this would add an extra layer of flavor and challenge for playing the Jochids and eventually trying to unite both halves into the same tag of Golden Horde/Ulug Ulus, given you survive the Great Troubles...



Preliminary map (also includes minor border changes in the East):

View attachment 1207798

Locations:
View attachment 1207799


It's... complicated. We know so little about what was going on in the Orda Ulus at the time (I'm not gonna bother with the color designation because no one seems to know which is which; if you want a laugh, read the Wikipedia page that can't make up its mind on the matter), that we can't even really say one way or the other who ostensibly held it or whether or not it even really existed in a coherent form (the Wikipedia page for Urus Khan, for instance, mentions that Ozbeg Khan "suppressed" it).

It's also worth noting that Wikipedia is laughably wrong many times over on who was even khan of the Orda Ulus. There's this paper that indicates that the first the the Orda Ulus was properly independent (and minting coinage) was in 1368-1369 under a Mubarak Khoja, who was shortly thereafter supplanted by Urus Khan.

Note that if you were to follow Wikipedia, you'd have this article on the fellow. As a consequence of the paper above, every single piece of information on that article is incorrect.

I did manage to find this article which seems to have a good bit of general information. Rather curiously, it includes this detail:
Untitled.png

Shiban, to note, is the progenitor of the Shaybanids of the 16th century.

Also note that your map forgets the Sufids.
 
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It's... complicated. We know so little about what was going on in the Orda Ulus at the time (I'm not gonna bother with the color designation because no one seems to know which is which; if you want a laugh, read the Wikipedia page that can't make up its mind on the matter), that we can't even really say one way or the other who ostensibly held it or whether or not it even really existed in a coherent form (the Wikipedia page for Urus Khan, for instance, mentions that Ozbeg Khan "suppressed" it).

It's also worth noting that Wikipedia is laughably wrong many times over on who was even khan of the Orda Ulus. There's this paper that indicates that the first the the Orda Ulus was properly independent (and minting coinage) was in 1368-1369 under a Mubarak Khoja, who was shortly thereafter supplanted by Urus Khan.

Note that if you were to follow Wikipedia, you'd have this article on the fellow. As a consequence of the paper above, every single piece of information on that article is incorrect.

I did manage to find this article which seems to have a good bit of general information. Rather curiously, it includes this detail:
View attachment 1207822
Shiban, to note, is the progenitor of the Shaybanids of the 16th century.

Also note that your map forgets the Sufids.



Yeah this map includes Shiban in the centre:

1730011042211.png




Regarding the Sufids, I wasn't entirely sure, as wiki says they were established in 1361. Going through the reference however "The Rise and Rule of Tamerlane" says they gained independence in 1361, so I can definitely include them back on the map as a vassal in that case.


 
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