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Tinto Maps #22 - 11th of October 2024 - Mongolia, Manchuria and Eastern Siberia

Hello and welcome another week to the amazing world of Tinto Maps. This week we are covering a very wide area, as we will take a look at Mongolia, Manchuria and all Eastern Siberia. So, without much further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
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Here, clearly, the Yuán Dynasty of China controls much of the territory, while all of the Siberian expanses are “open” to colonization. Considering Manchuria, the Jurchen tribes posed a tricky question, as some of them were more settled and Chinese-influenced while others were more nomadic and pastoralist, and some were in between. Thus, we decided to represent the more settled tribes that would later confederate into the Manchu as separate countries vassals of Yuán, while there is also Jurchen population inside the borders of Yuán itself and the most nomadic of them represented as Society of Pops.

Societies of Pops
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And speaking of that, most of them are obviously concentrated in Manchuria and around the borders of the countries and coasts, while the more inhospitable places further into Siberia and Kamchatka are more sparsely populated and thus less organized.

Dynasties
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Nothing that wasn’t expected here, Borjigin dynasty keeps dominating another week. Concerning the Jurchen, currently none of them have scripted dynasties assigned and are generated instead.

Locations
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Provinces
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Areas
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Terrain
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The drier parts of the Gobi Desert in the Mongolian Plateau give way to the steppes and grasslands of Manchuria, while further into Siberia it gets dominated by mountains, hills, forests, and as one would expect from Siberia, cold.

Development
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Not much development in these parts either, and as I mentioned in last week’s Tinto Maps, the sudden change in development when entering China will have to be reviewed, as it’s currently too strong.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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Quite a varied cultural landscape, as these areas are populated by many different peoples, sometimes expanding through a wide area while others are more localized. On the other hand, the Mongolian Plateau is very much dominated by Mongolian culture.

Religions
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Very diverse religion distribution too, with Tengri, Shamanism, and local variations of it with Tungustic Shamanism (brown), Yukaghir Shamanism (light blue) and Chukchee Shamanism (purple). I have to say that we are currently going through a review of all the religions of the world defined as either “Animism” or “Shamanism”, so it is possible that there are some changes in this distribution in the future.

Raw Materials
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Very marked distribution of resources, with Mongolia and Manchuria rich in livestock and horses (as one would expect from the horse lords) while the forests of Siberia are full of fur and wild game and the northern coasts are a big source of ivory (from the world-famous arctic elephant herds, of course). However, the mountainous areas also include precious metals like gold and silver, so their colonization may thus prove quite beneficial. Another thing of note is that fish can be found abundantly not only along the coasts but also along the major rivers crossing Siberia.

Markets
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First of all, we have reverted back to the previous way of visualizing markets, as it was clear that the change we did to it was not in the good direction. We will keep testing and trying things, so this will probably not be the final view of it, but for now we reverted back to this version as we think it would be clearer to present. Having said that, these are areas with not much market presence, with the markets of Karakorum and Ilan Hala being the main ones, and the Chinese markets encroaching on the southern parts. Siberia doesn’t have any market of its own, so all of it has currently no access.

Population
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The only countries we have population to show here are the Jurchen ones, with the mighty Yuán ever encroaching on them. Concerning the populations of the locations, one thing I have to mention is that you will see many of them with the value of 150, that is the general default value that we used for the less populated areas of all eastern Siberia, where population estimates of the period don’t allow for much fine tuning. It is probably something that we will adjust.

And that is it for this week. Next week, after having been teasing it and slithering around its edges for a while now, it will be finally time to face the dragon, as we will showcase the entirety of China. Hope to see you all there, and as always very open (and grateful) to all your feedback.
 
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Why Hokkaido have nearly one-third of the locations in Manchuria in 1337 (56 locations)?

View attachment 1200668
There are same numbers of locations in these two circles.

During the Meiji period (1868-1876), the population of Hokkaido only increased from 58,000 to 240,000 (data from wikipedia - Hokkaido). Prior to 1850, the population of Hokkaido was less than 50,000, and it is difficult to say that the population density was higher than the average population density of Siberia in 1337, more than 500 years ago, when it was completely indigenous. According to the current location division, even in 1868, each location in Hokkaido can only accommodate 100 people.

And the Manchurian region, during the Ming Dynasty, Liaodong belonged to Liaodong Dusi, which had a total of 25 Wei 衞 (garrisons) and 2 Zhou 州 (prefectures). Among them, the 25 Wei were inhabited by the Han ethnic group, while the 2 Zhou were inhabited by ethnic minorities.


View attachment 1200673
Liaodong, Ming Dynasty in 1582, it's a small part of Manchuria.

The Ming Dynasty, like other Han regimes in history, often only counted the Han population and did not count the minority population when counting the population, because only the Han people were responsible for paying taxes. During the Hongwu period of the Ming Dynasty, the Jinzhou Wei had a population of 45,620 people (Liaodong Chronicles, Volume 3). It can be seen that the Liaodong 25 Wei had a Han population of about 1,140,000 during the Hongwu period of the Ming Dynasty, not including the stationed military households and their families, which mains Liaodong had a huge population about 3,000,000 (3 persons in a family). Liaodong was only a very small part of the Manchurian region notified by the Ming Dynasty. (And I am saddened to see that the current location boundary of Liaodong cannot be restored to the border that was maintained for more than 200 years in the middle and late Ming Dynasty.)

View attachment 1200674
The border between the Ming Dynasty and its vassal states.

The population of Manchuria in 1900 was 17,000,000 (data from Wikipedia - Manchuria), which was 70 times the population of Hokkaido during the same period.
I don't know why there is a huge gap in location density for areas so close together,
it looks too strange.
I generally agree with this but i hope that the devs instead of reducing Hokkaido's locations increase Manchuria's instead
 
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Uhm I'm sorry but I don't think you should randomly assume that a people is >10000 years old with no reason,lol

Anyway, from "Arctic Anthropology Vol. 9, No. 1 (1972), pp. 17-26":
View attachment 1200675
It's not so much randomly as I don't know much about their history and didn't see much yet beyond Wikipedia stating the genetic studies showing close relations between them. I took that to mean they didn't migrate from somewhere else and not that they've been culturally the same since the Ice Age so my apologies if I wasn't too clear.

I would like to know more about when the Chukchi became distinct from other nearby people so thanks for sharing!

There has been plenty population turnover on the Chukoktan peninsula.
I'd definitely like to learn about this, thank you!
 
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Were all those Sakha and Evenki tribes really different cultures?
Actually only Sakha are Sakha as you can see by the religion map(only Turkic one)

I do agree that the Evenki and Even being so split is quite questionable, the even spread after 1000 CE AFAIK and thus should be decently more unified than the previous people while right now they aren't.

It's also extremely questionable that "Evenki" culture exists alongside the individual tribal culture, same goes for "Lamut"(Even) and the Even tribes.
 
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It can also be confusing when similar colors are next to each other, so we try to avoid that.
what about giving Yuan Blue ? the green is the color of the Song dynasty alongside Cyan. but blue & purple appeared in yuan china lot.

Yuan even though Used yellow and silver colors for royal reasons they still used LOT of blue in their things , clothes , porcelain , decorations of buildings also in blue

here is the chinese & mongol versions of their banners

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these bellow are military banners
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What's up with all those cultures around Sakha, for example Fuglyar, Beldet, Lalagir, that don't even show up on google? I'm guessing their Sakha sub-cultures? What's the source for them?

Also, seems like a strange decision to have a Yukaghir culture while having a bunch of other Yukaghir sub-cultures around it (Alays, Yandyrs). That's like having both French and Parisian as separate cultures, no? Wouldn't it make more sense to either have one big Yukagir culture, or no Yukagir culture? If my guess about Sakha is true, same question applies for them.
 
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Actually only Sakha are Sakha as you can see by the religion map(only Turkic one)

I do agree that the Evenki and Even being so split is quite questionable, the even spread after 1000 CE AFAIK and thus should be decently more unified than the previous people while right now they aren't.

It's also extremely questionable that "Evenki" culture exists alongside the individual tribal culture, same goes for "Lamut"(Even) and the Even tribes.
Maybe just dividing their cultures by main dialects would suffice?
What's up with all those cultures around Sakha, for example Fuglyar, Beldet, Lalagir, that don't even show up on google? What's the source for them?

Also, seems like a strange decision to have a Yukaghir culture while having a bunch of other Yukaghir sub-cultures around it (Alays, Yandyrs). That's like having both French and Parisian as separate cultures, no? Wouldn't it make more sense to either have one big Yukagir culture, or no Yukagir culture?
There should definatively be 4 Yukaghir cultures, but you're right that there shouldn't be one called as ''Yukaghir'', it should be renamed to Kolyma Yukhagir or Southern Yukaghir.
 
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What's up with all those cultures around Sakha, for example Fuglyar, Beldet, Lalagir, that don't even show up on google? I'm guessing their Sakha sub-cultures? What's the source for them?

Also, seems like a strange decision to have a Yukaghir culture while having a bunch of other Yukaghir sub-cultures around it (Alays, Yandyrs). That's like having both French and Parisian as separate cultures, no? Wouldn't it make more sense to either have one big Yukagir culture, or no Yukagir culture? If my guess about Sakha is true, same question applies for them.
Not Sakha, Evenki and Even tribes mostly afaik. You can see the rough linguistic split on the religion map

About Yukaghir, they did the same for Evenki and Even(Lamutk/Lamut) tribes lol
 
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Nice to see your new tinto map, here’s some suggestions of mine.

In 1337, there’s no Yalu, Donggo, Wanggiya, Hada, Hoifa, Neyen, Jusheli, Holjaon, Suksuhu, Hunhe. Yalu, Donggo, Wanggiya, Jusheli, Holjaon, Suksuhu, Hunhe exist after Li Manchu's Jianzhou Wei collapsed in mid 15th. Hada, Hoifa, Ula, Yehe exist after mid 15th, too. Except, Maolian (Morin), Uryangkhand (Warka) should change its spelling, Odoli, Morin, Warka should move to its historical positions.

In this map every tribes are in their historical positions.
Titles in blue is every tribe's leader's surname, they're not toponyms like Changchun and so on, but Guwalgiya, Wanggiya(also called gurun, for it's the royal house of Jin Dynasty), Goro, 奚滩("Xitan")……
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Part 1 #Tribes lived near by Xiguan City

The historical situation in 1337 is: Xiguan City is the most influential city in this area, next to Hunchun, Jilin, China today, in which a governorate of Yuan Government located.

This map shows the situation near by Xiguan City in 1337
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And there’s four tribes lived next to this city, for example:

Odoli tuman, which divided into two branches. One’s leader is Goro Mongketimur, ancestor of Jianzhou Zuo Wei and Qing Dynasty, and the other’s leader is 阿都歌 Minggan, Ongko咬纳, later become a vassal of Korea, Manho(Wanhu, Tuman, leader of a tribe of about 10 thousand families) of Olangku (於笼耳, now Gyeongseong, North Korea). Although these two leaders are all Odoli tumans, but we usually call Mongketimur so, and call Ongko 咬纳 阿都歌 Minggan and Mando of Olangku.
 
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Warka tuman, whose leader is Gurun 阿哈出, ancestor of Jianzhou Wei, and later Wanggiya tribe of Jianzhou Jurchen.

托温tuman, whose leader is 高卜儿阏

Ilan tuman minggan, whose leader is Fojomo 兀儿住.

In 1371, Udege 达乙麻赤 attacked Xiguan City, made Ilan tuman minggan disappeared, Odoli and 托温 immigrated to other locations.

So let’s talk about Odoli in the tinto map. Odoli as a tribe should be called Odoli Tuman, and in 1337, it’s next to Xiguan City. In 1371 Udege 达乙麻赤 attacked Xiguan City, made such tribe immigrated to Omohoi(斡木河, later Hoiryong, North Korea). In early 15th, Odoli leader Goro Mongketimur became Ming’s vassal, Jianzhou Zuo Wei (建州左卫), obeying emperor’s order, immigrated to Kaiyuan (Eastern Kaiyuan, now Krasnoyar, Ussuriysk), lived together with pre-Warka leader, Jianzhou Wei (建州卫) leader 阿哈出.

Uryangkhan, whose correct name is warka(火儿阿,兀良哈), the pronunciation of Hanzi in Chinese and Korean are different, so caused Chinese use 兀良哈 to call Uryangkhan Mongolians while Koreans call Warkas.

托温, Ilan tuman minggan, 阿都歌minggan, disappeared.

Part 2 #Jurchen Tribes lived in today's North Korea (uncompleted)
 
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It’s already night in my area, so I’ll discuss other suggestions tomorrow. I’ll glad to keep in touch with our awesome Paradox group, so if you’re interested about Manchurian history and would like to discuss more, welcome to send email to me.
 
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It’s already night in my area, so I’ll discuss other suggestions tomorrow. I’ll glad to keep in touch with our awesome Paradox group, so if you’re interested about Manchurian history and would like to discuss more, welcome to send email to me.
My email address is: <myname>@ou balabala ook.c bala m
why it's suggested to be a spam-like message
 
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