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Hello and welcome another week to the amazing world of Tinto Maps. This week we are covering a very wide area, as we will take a look at Mongolia, Manchuria and all Eastern Siberia. So, without much further ado, let’s get started.
Countries
Here, clearly, the Yuán Dynasty of China controls much of the territory, while all of the Siberian expanses are “open” to colonization. Considering Manchuria, the Jurchen tribes posed a tricky question, as some of them were more settled and Chinese-influenced while others were more nomadic and pastoralist, and some were in between. Thus, we decided to represent the more settled tribes that would later confederate into the Manchu as separate countries vassals of Yuán, while there is also Jurchen population inside the borders of Yuán itself and the most nomadic of them represented as Society of Pops.
Societies of Pops
And speaking of that, most of them are obviously concentrated in Manchuria and around the borders of the countries and coasts, while the more inhospitable places further into Siberia and Kamchatka are more sparsely populated and thus less organized.
Dynasties
Nothing that wasn’t expected here, Borjigin dynasty keeps dominating another week. Concerning the Jurchen, currently none of them have scripted dynasties assigned and are generated instead.
Locations
Provinces
Areas
Terrain
The drier parts of the Gobi Desert in the Mongolian Plateau give way to the steppes and grasslands of Manchuria, while further into Siberia it gets dominated by mountains, hills, forests, and as one would expect from Siberia, cold.
Development
Not much development in these parts either, and as I mentioned in last week’s Tinto Maps, the sudden change in development when entering China will have to be reviewed, as it’s currently too strong.
Natural Harbors
Cultures
Quite a varied cultural landscape, as these areas are populated by many different peoples, sometimes expanding through a wide area while others are more localized. On the other hand, the Mongolian Plateau is very much dominated by Mongolian culture.
Religions
Very diverse religion distribution too, with Tengri, Shamanism, and local variations of it with Tungustic Shamanism (brown), Yukaghir Shamanism (light blue) and Chukchee Shamanism (purple). I have to say that we are currently going through a review of all the religions of the world defined as either “Animism” or “Shamanism”, so it is possible that there are some changes in this distribution in the future.
Raw Materials
Very marked distribution of resources, with Mongolia and Manchuria rich in livestock and horses (as one would expect from the horse lords) while the forests of Siberia are full of fur and wild game and the northern coasts are a big source of ivory (from the world-famous arctic elephant herds, of course). However, the mountainous areas also include precious metals like gold and silver, so their colonization may thus prove quite beneficial. Another thing of note is that fish can be found abundantly not only along the coasts but also along the major rivers crossing Siberia.
Markets
First of all, we have reverted back to the previous way of visualizing markets, as it was clear that the change we did to it was not in the good direction. We will keep testing and trying things, so this will probably not be the final view of it, but for now we reverted back to this version as we think it would be clearer to present. Having said that, these are areas with not much market presence, with the markets of Karakorum and Ilan Hala being the main ones, and the Chinese markets encroaching on the southern parts. Siberia doesn’t have any market of its own, so all of it has currently no access.
Population
The only countries we have population to show here are the Jurchen ones, with the mighty Yuán ever encroaching on them. Concerning the populations of the locations, one thing I have to mention is that you will see many of them with the value of 150, that is the general default value that we used for the less populated areas of all eastern Siberia, where population estimates of the period don’t allow for much fine tuning. It is probably something that we will adjust.
And that is it for this week. Next week, after having been teasing it and slithering around its edges for a while now, it will be finally time to face the dragon, as we will showcase the entirety of China. Hope to see you all there, and as always very open (and grateful) to all your feedback.
Lamut is Evens. It’s a European exonym, just like Evenks were named Tungus or like Ostyaks was used by Russians to include a number of different people, some of which were indifferently , khantis, mansis… https://www.britannica.com/place/Arctic/North-central-and-northeastern-Siberian-groups
-sk suffix clearly indicates a Russian origin name, although I’m a bit surprised as I thought they tried not to take this approach since EU4. It makes sense somehow though in that it was the commonly known name to Russian (lamutsk) English (lamut) and French (lamoutes) at the time
Well my point is that those are not cultures, they are just tribes and some of these tribes cultures are even badly named like Lamutk and Evenk that shouldn't exist if the Evenki and Even tribes themselves exist.
Well my point is that those are not cultures, they are just tribes and some of these tribes cultures are even badly named like Lamutk and Evenk that shouldn't exist if the Evenki and Even tribes themselves exist.
Yeah I think Even, Evenki and Nanaic peoples should either be one culture(Nanaic at least) or be split into a bit larger cultures. From what I've read the Ewenic expansion is 4 centuries old at best and probably more recent, so these peoples should share a lot in common given their recent split.
Hello and welcome another week to the amazing world of Tinto Maps. This week we are covering a very wide area, as we will take a look at Mongolia, Manchuria and all Eastern Siberia. So, without much further ado, let’s get started.
Here, clearly, the Yuán Dynasty of China controls much of the territory, while all of the Siberian expanses are “open” to colonization. Considering Manchuria, the Jurchen tribes posed a tricky question, as some of them were more settled and Chinese-influenced while others were more nomadic and pastoralist, and some were in between. Thus, we decided to represent the more settled tribes that would later confederate into the Manchu as separate countries vassals of Yuán, while there is also Jurchen population inside the borders of Yuán itself and the most nomadic of them represented as Society of Pops.
Societies of Pops View attachment 1197851 And speaking of that, most of them are obviously concentrated in Manchuria and around the borders of the countries and coasts, while the more inhospitable places further into Siberia and Kamchatka are more sparsely populated and thus less organized.
Dynasties View attachment 1197852 Nothing that wasn’t expected here, Borjigin dynasty keeps dominating another week. Concerning the Jurchen, currently none of them have scripted dynasties assigned and are generated instead.
Terrain View attachment 1197868 View attachment 1197869 View attachment 1197870 The drier parts of the Gobi Desert in the Mongolian Plateau give way to the steppes and grasslands of Manchuria, while further into Siberia it gets dominated by mountains, hills, forests, and as one would expect from Siberia, cold.
Development View attachment 1197871 Not much development in these parts either, and as I mentioned in last week’s Tinto Maps, the sudden change in development when entering China will have to be reviewed, as it’s currently too strong.
Quite a varied cultural landscape, as these areas are populated by many different peoples, sometimes expanding through a wide area while others are more localized. On the other hand, the Mongolian Plateau is very much dominated by Mongolian culture.
Religions View attachment 1197876 Very diverse religion distribution too, with Tengri, Shamanism, and local variations of it with Tungustic Shamanism (brown), Yukaghir Shamanism (light blue) and Chukchee Shamanism (purple). I have to say that we are currently going through a review of all the religions of the world defined as either “Animism” or “Shamanism”, so it is possible that there are some changes in this distribution in the future.
Very marked distribution of resources, with Mongolia and Manchuria rich in livestock and horses (as one would expect from the horse lords) while the forests of Siberia are full of fur and wild game and the northern coasts are a big source of ivory (from the world-famous arctic elephant herds, of course). However, the mountainous areas also include precious metals like gold and silver, so their colonization may thus prove quite beneficial. Another thing of note is that fish can be found abundantly not only along the coasts but also along the major rivers crossing Siberia.
Markets View attachment 1197882 First of all, we have reverted back to the previous way of visualizing markets, as it was clear that the change we did to it was not in the good direction. We will keep testing and trying things, so this will probably not be the final view of it, but for now we reverted back to this version as we think it would be clearer to present. Having said that, these are areas with not much market presence, with the markets of Karakorum and Ilan Hala being the main ones, and the Chinese markets encroaching on the southern parts. Siberia doesn’t have any market of its own, so all of it has currently no access.
The only countries we have population to show here are the Jurchen ones, with the mighty Yuán ever encroaching on them. Concerning the populations of the locations, one thing I have to mention is that you will see many of them with the value of 150, that is the general default value that we used for the less populated areas of all eastern Siberia, where population estimates of the period don’t allow for much fine tuning. It is probably something that we will adjust.
And that is it for this week. Next week, after having been teasing it and slithering around its edges for a while now, it will be finally time to face the dragon, as we will showcase the entirety of China. Hope to see you all there, and as always very open (and grateful) to all your feedback.
Here is the map of the Far East people in XVI. Can be of use for the region. Bear in mind a lot of the names are outdated like Kirgiz for Kazakhs, Ostyaki for Khanti and Ket. Voguly for Mansi
We don't know, but I hope they have improved slightly. Maybe something like a 2 tiered system with a local level and then an overall level. This would be to better distinguish cultural differences, but also big linguistic ones. Hopefully with different bonuses for being more related, something like +5% culture conversion speed or something like that for the big group and then +10% culture conversion speed and +5% religious conversion speed for the inner group, with bonuses to accepted cultures for more closely related cultures. This could also help with the road to uniting cultures like French or German through decisions as you could unite the smaller group first, and then move on to the larger one.
Ex:
Castilian -> Iberian -> Western Romance
Francien -> D'oil -> Western Romance
Languedocien -> D'oc -> Western Romance
Aromanian -> Balkan Romance -> Eastern Romance (a bit redundant but it works with the two tiered system)
Bashkir -> Turkic -> Altaic (although I hate it linguistically, it does make a degree of sense culturally. Still, would much prefer a Bashkir -> Kipchak -> Turkic progression with some sort of mechanic specifically for Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic cultures that ties them together through migrations and cooperation)
Han -> Chinese -> Sinitic ( yet again, a bit redundant but it works with the two tiered system)
Scots -> Anglic -> West Germanic
Markish -> Low German -> Central Germanic
Danube Bavarian (Austrian) -> High German -> Central Germanic
This probably won't be implemented, but my realistic guess is that it will be a bit more like CK3 and a bit less like EU4.
Well my point is that those are not cultures, they are just tribes and some of these tribes cultures are even badly named like Lamutk and Evenk that shouldn't exist if the Evenki and Even tribes themselves exist.
It’s true that compared to the Mediterranean region where culture are much bigger, it’s significantly more detailed.
That being said, I expect they did so to represent the individual tribes / nations, probably the same way they will do it for North America. Besides, most of these « subgroups » still exist nowadays in ethnic classification, even though some only count a few hundred people.
We don't know, but I hope they have improved slightly. Maybe something like a 2 tiered system with a local level and then an overall level. This would be to better distinguish cultural differences, but also big linguistic ones. Hopefully with different bonuses for being more related, something like +5% culture conversion speed or something like that for the big group and then +10% culture conversion speed and +5% religious conversion speed for the inner group, with bonuses to accepted cultures for more closely related cultures. This could also help with the road to uniting cultures like French or German through decisions as you could unite the smaller group first, and then move on to the larger one.
Ex:
Castilian -> Iberian -> Western Romance
Francien -> D'oil -> Western Romance
Languedocien -> D'oc -> Western Romance
Aromanian -> Balkan Romance -> Eastern Romance (a bit redundant but it works with the two tiered system)
Bashkir -> Turkic -> Altaic (although I hate it linguistically, it does make a degree of sense culturally. Still, would much prefer a Bashkir -> Kipchak -> Turkic progression with some sort of mechanic specifically for Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic cultures that ties them together through migrations and cooperation)
Han -> Chinese -> Sinitic ( yet again, a bit redundant but it works with the two tiered system)
Scots -> Anglic -> West Germanic
Markish -> Low German -> Central Germanic
Danube Bavarian (Austrian) -> High German -> Central Germanic
This probably won't be implemented, but my realistic guess is that it will be a bit more like CK3 and a bit less like EU4.
Probably more a CK3 thing with cultural affinity and a « common origin » (language or cultural Pillar). This system is much more flexible than the group/subgroup to represent local fluidity between culture, like Catalan is very similar to Occitan, probably more than French is to Occitan. In eu4 the group system wasn’t suited to represent this, but the CK3 system can with a mix of cultural traditions, court language…
Something that stands out to me is the issue of transliterating Manchu words. Right now the game uses a mix of a few different systems, Möllendorff (e.g. "Jecen"), Hu (e.g. "Jusheli"), and Abkai (e.g. "Hvlan").
The difference between these three systems is illustrated by the following sentence (which means "I love tinto studios' maps even though here I always quarrel with many other people")
Möllendorff:
'bi tinto bithei booi i nirugan cihalambi uthai uba de urui mujakū gūwa niyalma i temšekini'
Hu:
'bi tinto bithei booi i nirugan chihalambi uthai uba de urui muzhakuu guuwa niyalma i temshekini'
Abkai:
'bi tinto bithei booi i nirugan qihalambi uthai uba de urui gvwa mujakv niyalma i temxekini'
The relevant differences are c/ch/q, j/zh, ū/uu/v, and š/sh/x
My main concern is that one of these three be used consistently. The third one (q, j, v, x) exists for the purpose of maintaining a 1:1 correspondence between latin characters and the Manchu script, and not containing diacritics that might make it inconvenient to type, but I subjectively don't really like it, the typical person playing the game is liable to not know what x and v are for, and misinterpret the latter as a consonant. So I think either Möllendorff or Hu, should be used. Möllendorff (c, j, ū, š) is the standard used in Western academic publications, but Hu (ch, zh, uu, sh) is also used partly because it conveys the phonetic value of sh/š and ch/c better to untrained English speakers, although it's really meant to mimic pinyin, which comes out in how it has zh instead of j, so for that sound Hu is actually less convenient for English speakers. Personally I would go with Möllendorff, but Hu would be alright too. Henceforth in this post I will use Möllendorff.
Unfortunately it's a bit awkward that the peninsular part is cut off. I would prefer to work with the region as a unit. If one of the devs could post the rest of it that would be greatly appreciated, although to be fair we get the rest of it anyways on friday so I can't be too bothered.
I could complain that I might want the "Jurchen" culture to be renamed. Essentially the issue here is that I am going to be doing this entire post in Manchu, which is technically a descendant language of Jurchen. In the Qing dynasty, the medieval Jurchens were called "Jurcit", although this is actually a loan from Mongol, the actual word does have a direct descendant in Manchu, which is "Jušen", although this had shifted to mean "Jurchen (i.e. non-Manchu) serf" (thus necessitating re-acquiring the word from Mongol for its original context). Because this nation didn't have a literary tradition until Nurhaci decreed that the language would be written in the Mongolian alphabet in 1599, the only surviving evidence of the language's medieval form is from what was written about it by other cultures, and as a result we know very few medieval Jurchen words, and none of them, including the word "Jurchen", are directly attested, it's a reconstruction based on renderings in Chinese and Khitan texts. It's also an anglicisation, in Möllendorff this would be spelled "Jurcen".
However, I also recognise that the word "Jurchen" is recognisable in its own right as the distinctive English word for this ethnic group, and likely to be kept. It's also not really objectionable since it is in fact a pretty faithful rendering of the original ethnonym, though if I had total control over the universe I might change it to "Jurcen".
Anyways what immediately what stands out to me about the map itself is that Liaodong (that is to say, the part of Manchuria south of the on-map Jurchen tags which is directly controlled by Yuan) appears to be monoethnically Jurchen.
It's also a bit weird how the Jurchen region extends very far west into the Rehe area (the region north of Beijing and west of Liaodong). As far as I know, the large populations of Manchu that today live in the Rehe area came to Rehe during the Qing dynasty when many Manchu migrated out of Manchuria in accompaniment with the expansion of their empire. The region west of the on-map Jurchen states should be largely ethnically Mongol. There was an old secondary capital of the Jurchen Jin dynasty in what is today Ningcheng county, Chifeng, Inner Mongolia (the name of this city was, confusingly, "Beijing", since it was located to the north of the primary Jin capital, Nanjing, that is to say, the city we now call Beijing). However, this city was totally destroyed by the Mongols, so I don't think there should be any Jurchens there.
Here are some excerpts from the book Empire's Twilight: Northeast Asia Under the Mongols:
1. Liaodong (i.e. the part of Manchuria south of the Jurchen states) should be majority Chinese. I understand that the Han in-game are broken up into many cultures, so I would personally recommend that a special "Liaodong" culture be created (it shouldn't be called "Northeastern/Dongbei" as that name only came into widespread use since the Qing dynasty), which would be used specifically for Chinese from Manchuria, who have been ruled for centuries by foreign dynasties and would have differences from Chinese south of the Great Wall. Importantly, the present-day dialect map of Northeastern China should be entirely ignored, as most of the Northeast's present-day population is descended from migrant farmers who moved there during the Qing dynasty from Zhili and Shandong, which is the reason why present-day Northeasterners speak dialects related to those found around Beijing and on the Shandong peninsula.
2. This same region should have some Jurchen pops, but not too many. They should mostly be concentrated around the city of Liaoyang, a Jin dynasty former capital, and in the region south of it.
4. There should be 30-40 thousand Koreans in Shenyang, which probably would make them the majority in that location. Additional Koreans should exist nearby.
5. There should also be a smaller number of Mongols, representing the Mongol military units garrisoned in this region. The nobility of Liaodong should be mostly ethnically Mongol and Korean.
6. In general, Liaodong is still recovering from the devastation of the Mongol conquest. Population shouldn't be too high, and development shouldn't be very high, although the contrast between it and China proper should probably be a bit less stark. Liaodong should be more developed than the Jurchen heartland to its north, but less developed than China proper.
7. I don't see any reason to believe that there were any Khitans left in this region by the 14th century
Coastline:
The coastline at the Liao river delta has advanced significantly in the recent past. This map illustrates the historical coastline (Ming Liaodong is depicted), which I think remained relatively constant during the whole time period of the game.
Locations:
It's a bit hard to do work on this without the southern half of the region, but I think more locations could be added. I hold the belief that the game's Chinese geography should fundamentally represent the geography of the Ming dynasty, as Yuan only lasted for the first few decades of the game. The main issue is that many recognisable places in the Northeast were founded after, sometimes long after, the Yuan dynasty, because Manchuria was sparsely populated until the late Qing era. Also, many places do not have Manchu names I could find easily, in these cases, I provide a Manjuricised version of the Chinese name (the conversion from Chinese to Manchu is regular and predictable, but I could understand objections to this method, so each of these is marked with a leading asterisk).
First of all, I want the borders to be moved a bit to enable the creation of accurate borders for Ming-era Liaodong (it should be noted that the western borders of the region only came to where they are in the map above after Mongolian incursions during the mid-15th century, but the border is quite recognisable and should be represented).
The matter of Xifeng
The main impact of this is the restriction of the Kaiyuan location to its western half. The eastern half could become a new location. It is currently called Xīfēng 西丰 County, but this was only created in 1905 and I could not find any information about what it was called before that. The best name I could think of would be Hada, the name of the local Manchu tribe (though many sources said this region was part of the Yehe tribe's territory, they also said it was the western border even though it is in the south of the Yehe tribe's proper territory, so it might be that these sources confuse the Haixi Confederacy with the Yehe tribe).
later note: A Manchu word that is probably 'Gehun' was used for this area at least as far back as the time of Nurhaci. Therefore the the location should be called Gehun in Manchu. I am also more confident that it belonged to the Yehe tribe.
The matter of "Qinhe"
This name is not given tone marks for some reason even though it is obviously Chinese. I therefore conclude that it is a typo for Qīnghé 清河, the name of a river, but this river is not especially significant, the Tàizǐhé 太子河 is more significant. The oldest name for a settlement in this area I could find was Xiǎocí 小茨, which is attested first around 300 years ago. View attachment 1202507
Possible new locations
1. Xīfēng 西丰 (Manchu is Gehun)
2. Xīpíng 西平 (Manchu would be*Siping) - the Dalinghe location seems quite large, this is a new location created out of the eastern half and named after a Ming fortress
3. Ānshān 鞍山 (Manchu would be *Anšan) - this was not a very important settlement until modern times, but on the other hand, its name is first recorded in 1330 so it's not technically anachronistic
4. Yùnāsīniúlù 韵阿司牛录 (Manchu would be *Ioinasynilio) - located in modern Liaozhong district. This town was founded in the early Qing dynasty
5. Fèngjí 奉集 (Manchu would be *Fengji) - located in modern Sujiatun district. Named after a Ming era fortress close to Shenyang.
6. Sōngshān 松山 (Manchu would be *Sungšan) - located in modern Taihe district. Another Ming era fortress, next to Jinzhou.
7. Qiántún 前屯 (Manchu would be *Ciyantun) - located in modern Xingcheng district. Another Ming era fortress, next to Ningyuan.
8. Bēixī 杯溪 (Manchu would be *Behi) - Modern Benxi. Benxi is named after Benxi Lake, which was apparently formerly known as Beixi (though I'm not sure how old that name is exactly other than that the name changed sometime before 1906), so I have named this location such. This location exists to break up
9. Xiǎocí 小茨(Manchu would be *Siyoosy) - This name is at least as old as around the year 1700. Could also be called Tàizǐhé 太子河 (Manchu *Taidzy Bira)
Renamings and Manchu namings
From what I can find, Tieling's name originates during the early Ming dynasty. If the developers have the time, they could make an event that changes its name to Tieling, and have the location start the game named Yínzhōu 银州 (Manchu *In Jeo)
Manchu name of Fushun is Fu Šun
Manchu name of Shenyang is Simiyan
Manchu name of Kuandian is Kuwandiyan
Manchu name of Haizhou would be *Hai Jeo
Manchu name of Dalinghe would be *Dailing Ho
Manchu name of Jinzhou would be *Gin Jeo
Manchu name of Yizhou would be *I Jeo
Manchu name of Guangning would be *Guwang Ning
Manchu name of Qinhe would be *Cin Ho
Manchu name of Tieling would be *Tiyeiling
Manchu name of Kaiyuan would be *Kaiyuwan
Manchu name of Xincheng would be *Sinceng
Manchu name of Ningchang would be *Ningcang
Manchu name of Tongliao would be *Tungliyoo
Manchu name of Fuxin would be *Fusin
Manchu name of Wangning would be *Wangning
Tomorrow I will work on central Manchuria, the Jurchen heartland
Something that stands out to me is the issue of transliterating Manchu words. Right now the game uses a mix of a few different systems, Möllendorff (e.g. "Jecen"), Hu (e.g. "Jusheli"), and Abkai (e.g. "Hvlan").
The difference between these three systems is illustrated by the following sentence (which means "I love tinto studios' maps even though here I always quarrel with many other people")
Möllendorff:
'bi tinto bithei booi i nirugan cihalambi uthai uba de urui mujakū gūwa niyalma i temšekini'
Hu:
'bi tinto bithei booi i nirugan chihalambi uthai uba de urui muzhakuu guuwa niyalma i temshekini'
Abkai:
'bi tinto bithei booi i nirugan qihalambi uthai uba de urui gvwa mujakv niyalma i temxekini'
The relevant differences are c/ch/q, j/zh, ū/uu/v, and š/sh/x
My main concern is that one of these three be used consistently. The third one (q, j, v, x) exists for the purpose of maintaining a 1:1 correspondence between latin characters and the Manchu script, and not containing diacritics that might make it inconvenient to type, but I subjectively don't really like it, the typical person playing the game is liable to not know what x and v are for, and misinterpret the latter as a consonant. So I think either Möllendorff or Hu, should be used. Möllendorff (c, j, ū, š) is the standard used in Western academic publications, but Hu (ch, zh, uu, sh) is also used partly because it conveys the phonetic value of sh/š and ch/c better to untrained English speakers, although it's really meant to mimic pinyin, which comes out in how it has zh instead of j, so for that sound Hu is actually less convenient for English speakers. Personally I would go with Möllendorff, but Hu would be alright too. Henceforth in this post I will use Möllendorff.
Unfortunately it's a bit awkward that the peninsular part is cut off. I would prefer to work with the region as a unit. If one of the devs could post the rest of it that would be greatly appreciated, although to be fair we get the rest of it anyways on friday so I can't be too bothered.
I could complain that I might want the "Jurchen" culture to be renamed. Essentially the issue here is that I am going to be doing this entire post in Manchu, which is technically a descendant language of Jurchen. In the Qing dynasty, the medieval Jurchens were called "Jurcit", although this is actually a loan from Mongol, the actual word does have a direct descendant in Manchu, which is "Jušen", although this had shifted to mean "Jurchen (i.e. non-Manchu) serf" (thus necessitating re-acquiring the word from Mongol for its original context). Because this nation didn't have a literary tradition until Nurhaci decreed that the language would be written in the Mongolian alphabet in 1599, the only surviving evidence of the language's medieval form is from what was written about it by other cultures, and as a result we know very few medieval Jurchen words, and none of them, including the word "Jurchen", are directly attested, it's a reconstruction based on renderings in Chinese and Khitan texts. It's also an anglicisation, in Möllendorff this would be spelled "Jurcen".
However, I also recognise that the word "Jurchen" is recognisable in its own right as the distinctive English word for this ethnic group, and likely to be kept. It's also not really objectionable since it is in fact a pretty faithful rendering of the original ethnonym, though if I had total control over the universe I might change it to "Jurcen".
Anyways what immediately what stands out to me about the map itself is that Liaodong (that is to say, the part of Manchuria south of the on-map Jurchen tags which is directly controlled by Yuan) appears to be monoethnically Jurchen.
It's also a bit weird how the Jurchen region extends very far west into the Rehe area (the region north of Beijing and west of Liaodong). As far as I know, the large populations of Manchu that today live in the Rehe area came to Rehe during the Qing dynasty when many Manchu migrated out of Manchuria in accompaniment with the expansion of their empire. The region west of the on-map Jurchen states should be largely ethnically Mongol. There was an old secondary capital of the Jurchen Jin dynasty in what is today Ningcheng county, Chifeng, Inner Mongolia (the name of this city was, confusingly, "Beijing", since it was located to the north of the primary Jin capital, Nanjing, that is to say, the city we now call Beijing). However, this city was totally destroyed by the Mongols, so I don't think there should be any Jurchens there.
Here are some excerpts from the book Empire's Twilight: Northeast Asia Under the Mongols:
1. Liaodong (i.e. the part of Manchuria south of the Jurchen states) should be majority Chinese. I understand that the Han in-game are broken up into many cultures, so I would personally recommend that a special "Liaodong" culture be created (it shouldn't be called "Northeastern/Dongbei" as that name only came into widespread use since the Qing dynasty), which would be used specifically for Chinese from Manchuria, who have been ruled for centuries by foreign dynasties and would have differences from Chinese south of the Great Wall. Importantly, the present-day dialect map of Northeastern China should be entirely ignored, as most of the Northeast's present-day population is descended from migrant farmers who moved there during the Qing dynasty from Zhili and Shandong, which is the reason why present-day Northeasterners speak dialects related to those found around Beijing and on the Shandong peninsula.
2. This same region should have some Jurchen pops, but not too many. They should mostly be concentrated around the city of Liaoyang, a Jin dynasty former capital, and in the region south of it.
4. There should be 30-40 thousand Koreans in Shenyang, which probably would make them the majority in that location. Additional Koreans should exist nearby.
5. There should also be a smaller number of Mongols, representing the Mongol military units garrisoned in this region. The nobility of Liaodong should be mostly ethnically Mongol and Korean.
6. In general, Liaodong is still recovering from the devastation of the Mongol conquest. Population shouldn't be too high, and development shouldn't be very high, although the contrast between it and China proper should probably be a bit less stark. Liaodong should be more developed than the Jurchen heartland to its north, but less developed than China proper.
7. I don't see any reason to believe that there were any Khitans left in this region by the 14th century
Coastline:
The coastline at the Liao river delta has advanced significantly in the recent past. This map illustrates the historical coastline (Ming Liaodong is depicted), which I think remained relatively constant during the whole time period of the game.
Locations:
It's a bit hard to do work on this without the southern half of the region, but I think more locations could be added. I hold the belief that the game's Chinese geography should fundamentally represent the geography of the Ming dynasty, as Yuan only lasted for the first few decades of the game. The main issue is that many recognisable places in the Northeast were founded after, sometimes long after, the Yuan dynasty, because Manchuria was sparsely populated until the late Qing era. Also, many places do not have Manchu names I could find easily, in these cases, I provide a Manjuricised version of the Chinese name (the conversion from Chinese to Manchu is regular and predictable, but I could understand objections to this method, so each of these is marked with a leading asterisk).
First of all, I want the borders to be moved a bit to enable the creation of accurate borders for Ming-era Liaodong (it should be noted that the western borders of the region only came to where they are in the map above after Mongolian incursions during the mid-15th century, but the border is quite recognisable and should be represented).
The matter of Xifeng
The main impact of this is the restriction of the Kaiyuan location to its western half. The eastern half could become a new location. It is currently called Xīfēng 西丰 County, but this was only created in 1905 and I could not find any information about what it was called before that. The best name I could think of would be Hada, the name of the local Manchu tribe (though many sources said this region was part of the Yehe tribe's territory, they also said it was the western border even though it is in the south of the Yehe tribe's proper territory, so it might be that these sources confuse the Haixi Confederacy with the Yehe tribe).
The matter of "Qinhe"
This name is not given tone marks for some reason even though it is obviously Chinese. I therefore conclude that it is a typo for Qīnghé 清河, the name of a river, but this river is not especially significant, the Tàizǐhé 太子河 is more significant. The oldest name for a settlement in this area I could find was Xiǎocí 小茨, which is attested first around 300 years ago. View attachment 1202507
Possible new locations
1. Xīfēng 西丰 (Manchu would be *Sifeng, but my suggestion is to name it Hada instead)
2. Xīpíng 西平 (Manchu would be*Siping) - the Dalinghe location seems quite large, this is a new location created out of the eastern half and named after a Ming fortress
3. Ānshān 鞍山 (Manchu would be *Anšan) - this was not a very important settlement until modern times, but on the other hand, its name is first recorded in 1330 so it's not technically anachronistic
4. Yùnāsīniúlù 韵阿司牛录 (Manchu would be *Ioinasynilio) - located in modern Liaozhong district. This town was founded in the early Qing dynasty
5. Fèngjí 奉集 (Manchu would be *Fengji) - located in modern Sujiatun district. Named after a Ming era fortress close to Shenyang.
6. Sōngshān 松山 (Manchu would be *Sungšan) - located in modern Taihe district. Another Ming era fortress, next to Jinzhou.
7. Qiántún 前屯 (Manchu would be *Ciyantun) - located in modern Xingcheng district. Another Ming era fortress, next to Ningyuan.
8. Bēixī 杯溪 (Manchu would be *Benhi) - Modern Benxi. Benxi is named after Benxi Lake, which was apparently formerly known as Beixi (though I'm not sure how old that name is exactly other than that the name changed sometime before 1906), so I have named this location such. This location exists to break up
9. Xiǎocí 小茨(Manchu would be Siyoosy) - This name is at least as old as around the year 1700. Could also be called Tàizǐhé 太子河 (Manchu *Taidzy Bira)
Renamings and Manchu namings
From what I can find, Tieling's name originates during the early Ming dynasty. If the developers have the time, they could make an event that changes its name to Tieling, and have the location start the game named Yínzhōu 银州 (Manchu *In Jeo)
Manchu name of Fushun is Fu Šun
Manchu name of Shenyang is Simiyan
Manchu name of Kuandian is Kuwandiyan
Manchu name of Haizhou would be *Hai Jeo
Manchu name of Dalinghe would be *Dailing Ho
Manchu name of Jinzhou would be *Gin Jeo
Manchu name of Yizhou would be *I Jeo
Manchu name of Guangning would be *Guwang Ning
Manchu name of Qinhe would be *Cin Ho
Manchu name of Tieling would be *Tiyeiling
Manchu name of Kaiyuan would be *Kaiyuwan
Manchu name of Xincheng would be *Sinceng
Manchu name of Ningchang would be *Ningcang
Manchu name of Tongliao would be *Tungliyoo
Manchu name of Fuxin would be *Fusin
Manchu name of Wangning would be *Wangning
Tomorrow I will work on central Manchuria, the Jurchen heartland
After reading some comments in this thread about how Manchuria's locations are noticeably underdense in comparison to Hokkaido, I have added some more location suggestions to Liaodong, increasing from 3 to 9.
Additionally, I have found that a Manchu word that is probably 'Gehun' was used for Xifeng at least as far back as the time of Nurhaci, and the capital of the Hada tribe was here. Therefore the location should be called Gehun.
Suggestions on Manchuria and the Jurchens (part 2):
Jurchen Heartland:
This region does have something of a supply of names I could find in the form of the Liao dynasty's administrative divisions, which are fairly well-recorded. However the Liao dynasty vanished 200 years before the start date; its administrative structure (including most of these names) was retained by Jurchen Jin, which was destroyed by the Mongols a century before the start date. There are also some available names from the Bohai state which is two centuries again older. The Manchu names here are not necessarily 100% reliable, in many cases I could only find a Chinese transcription of the name and had to make an educated guess at what it was supposed to be.
Locations:
10. Wǔnǚshān 五女山 (Manchu would be *Ilan Hehe Alin) - a mountain in Huanren county that was once the capital of Goguryeo and in 1424 a fort was constructed there by a Jurchen chief
11. Huáirén 怀仁 (Manchu would be *Huwaiẑen) - older name of Huanren county. Probably not Yuan dynasty old, though.
12. Ji'an is a very modern name. On the other hand, here we have the opportunity to instead go way back into the past, as this place was also one of the most important cities of Goguryeo, called Gúonèi 国内 (Gungnae in Korean, and would be *Guwonei in Manchu) until that state's fall in the 7th century AD. There is a monument that commemorates one of the kings of Goguryeo here erected by a later king, which gives a town close to Ji'an the name Tàiwáng 太王, which would actually tie the location name to some thing that we know existed at the time. Liao dynasty name is Huánzhōu 桓州 (Manchu would be *Huwan Jeo)
13. Tōnghuà 通化 (Manchu is Tunggiya Ula) was established in 1877, but it takes its name from the older name of the local river, so I think it can be used. The Liao dynasty name is Zhèngzhōu 正州 (Manchu would be *Jeng Jeo)
14. Baishan's name is very modern, only dating from the mid-20th century. It is also named after Changbai Mountain, a geographical feature that is nearby but not next to this actual location. Therefore I recommend creating a location here named Shénxiāng 神乡 (Manchu would be *Šenhiyang), after a Liao dynasty county.
15. Linjiang could possibly be renamed to Lùzhōu 渌州 (Manchu would be Lu Jeo), a Liao dynasty administrative division. Linjiang (Manchu would be *Lin Giyang) is a fine alternative if it's decided the Liao names aren't the best fit.
16. A place named Chǎngbáishānsì 长白山寺 (Manchu would be Golmin Šanggiyan Alin Sy), meaning Changbai mountain Temple, is mentioned during the Ming dynasty.
17. Fǔsōng 抚松 (Manchu would be *Fusung), the name is modern but also refers to the geography (since it refers to its position in the area of the headwaters of Songhua River). The name of Mànjiāng 漫江 town is said to be from the Manchu word for a large brown bear, which is 'Nasin', and refer to their presence near a river (thus the 江), but this might be a folk etymology, and it's also said to date from the Han settlement of the region. This location could also keep its current name of "Sunggari".
18. Méngjiāng 蒙江 (Manchu name I think is Nicuhe Giyang). The original name of Jingyu County was this name of the river here, which was used to refer to the settlement and county when it became populated enough to be organised in the late Qing dynasty, before it was renamed after a war hero who died in battle here during WW2.
19. Mùzhōu 慕州 (Manchu would be *Mu Jeo). The Liao dynasty administrative division in Liuhe county. I could not find any Manchu placenames here.
20. Hǎilóng 海龙 (Manchu name is Hailun). Older name for Meihekou (which refers to the river).
21. The game has the curious issue that there are actually two locations named Hoifa, as "Huifacheng" just means "Hoifa city" in Chinese. The actual location of the capital of the Hoifa tribe is in the eastern part of the Huifacheng location, which I have marked on my map as 21. This location's Chinese name should be Huifacheng and its Manchu name should be Hoifa.
22. Liáoyuán 辽源 (Manchu would be *Liyoo Yuwan) is a modern name. During the Qing dynasty, it was called "Shengjing Paddock" Shèngjīng Wéichǎng 盛京圍場 or "Imperial Deer Garden" Huángjiā Lùyuàn 皇家鹿苑, which don't really work since the first one contains a Qing era name, and both of them refer to its use as a hunting ground by the Qing emperors. I couldn't find any other old Manchu names for it. The name Liaoyuan itself, despite being modern, does have an origin in the geography, since the Dongliao River's source and much of its course are located in in this area, so I think that would probably be the least unreasonable name. The location could also be directly named for the Dongliao River (Dōngliáo 东辽, I don't know the Manchu name of this river but the direct translation would be *Dergi Liyoo)
23. A Manchu placename from the region of Panshi I could find is Kirsa (Qǔcháihé 取柴河 in Chinese)
24. Futa (Fùtài 富太 in Chinese) is another old Manchu placename from Panshi
25. Moo Hūlan (Hūlán 呼兰 in Chinese) is another old Manchu Panshi placename
26. Jecen Dzy (Jíchǎngzi 集场子) is another old Manchu Panshi placename
27. The only Manchu placename for Huadian I could find is Hiyabsa Ko (Jiāpígōu 夹皮沟 in Chinese)
28. Todai (退抟 Tuìtuán in Chinese) is the old Manchu name for Qianjin township, Jiaohe County.
29. Mudan (Dàyángwēi 大阳崴 in Chinese) is an older name for what is now Dayang Town in Dongfeng county, Liaoyuan
30. Hailan Moo (Kuàidàmào 快大茂 in Chinese) is an old name for Kuaidamao town in Tonghua county
31. Yīng'ébù 英额布 is a place that was used by Nurhaci to train troops. It is a Manchu name, but I don't know for sure what the Manchu spelling exactly is. It might be something like "Ilha Be"
32. Ilanci (the Chinese name is Yīlāxī 一拉溪, which is ironic since the Manchu name literally means "Third")
33. Kǒuqián 口前 is a district in Yongji county, Jilin. A possible explanation for the name is that it comes from the Manchu word 'Koki', meaning tadpole, though this might be a folk etymology.
34. Shulan's name is derived from the Manchu word 'Šula', meaning fruit juice.
35. Fǎtè 法特 is a very old settlement in Shulan whose Manchu name is Fatha.
36. Changchun (Manchu would be *Cangcun) is probably named after a Liao dynasty administrative division of the same name that was actually located in Qian Gorlos County to the north. There are other theories though, and I can't find a better name that applies to the location of Changchun. The modern settlement of Changchun as we know it did not exist until after 1791.
37. Near present-day Qinjiatun town in Gongzhuling county, there was the Liao dynasty county of Wǔchāng 武昌 (Manchu would be Wucang). This could either be its own location or be used as the name for Changchun.
38. Manchu version of Nong'an would be *Nung An. This was the centre of the Lóngzhōu 隆州 (Manchu would be *Lung Jeo) prefecture during Jurchen Jin, but it was totally destroyed and its current name seems to originate from its name during Ming times.
39. Suwayan (Shuāngyáng 双阳 in Chinese) is the name of a tribe attested in the time of Nurhaci that eventually gave its name to the modern district.
I couldn't figure out what Gongjiang is supposed to be. I would personally suggest dividing it into
40. Mangkan (Mǎngkǎ 莽卡)
and
41. Temen Alin (Tǔmenlǐng 土们岭)
42. The Chinese town Chàlùkǒu 岔路口 might be named from the Manchu word 'Jalu'
43. Émùhèsuǒluó 额穆赫索罗 (modern Emu town, Dunhua) is a Chinese transliteration of a Manchu placename, but I can't deduce what the original placename really is. Direct transliteration into Manchu is *Omuhosuweluwe
44. Dàpúcháihé 大蒲柴河 has the same traits as 43. Direct transliteration is *Daipucaiho
45. I could not find a good name for the Juxeri location (it is currently named after the tribe whose territory it is in). Its current name is therefore probably the best thing availible. It could maybe be named something like "North Changbai" but that would be speculative. During Bohai a prefecture named Xìngzhōu 兴州 existed here, although its people were moved to Tieling so it seems unlikely it would still be attached to this place.
46. I believe the Manchu name for Helong is 'Holo'
47. Longjing is a recent name associated with the late Qing era migration of Koreans to this place. The older Qing name was Nánhuāng 南荒, although this doesn't refer to any settlement but means "South Wilderness". It may also have been called Nángǎng 南岗, which would make more sense as the name of a settlement, although both of these names reflect administrative policies of the Qing era. Nevertheless I was not able to find any older names for this place.
48. I wasn't able to figure out where "Kahari" comes from. In Manchu 'Gahari' means "blouse". Wangqing county's name apparently comes from a Manchu word, but I can't figure out exactly what word it is, it could be Funggin, or maybe Šancin. The direct Manchu transliteration of Wangqing is *Wangcing.
49. Itu (Chinese name is Yītōng 伊通)
50. Hailang should be renamed to Hailan
51. Dàdùchuān 大肚川 is from an old Manchu placename that I believe is Toktoba. The Manjuricised version of Dongning would be *Dung Ning, or possibly Dergi Ningguta). That name means "East of Ning" i.e. to the east of Ningguta, and it seems to have originated first in 1909, though I have no idea how old the other placename is.
52. Lǎohēishān 老黑山 is apparently from an old Manchu word, but I can't figure out what it is exactly. Direct Manchu transliteration would be *Loo Hei Šan
53. Kaiyuan (Manjuricisation of the mandarin name would be *Kaiyuwan) is the name of the Jurchen Jin era fortress that was destroyed by the Mongols. The name "Juru Hoton" used by the neighbouring location means "Pair of Ctities" and one of the cities it is referring to is Kaiyuan. These cities each have individual names. Therefore this location should probably be renamed Jurgen.
54. Likewise the Juru Hoton location itself should probably be renamed Furdan. It could also be called Sùpín 速頻, the Jurchen Jin-era name.
55. Suífēnhé 绥芬河 is a city that was founded very recently, but it is named for the Suifenhe river, whose Manchu name is Suifun. Therefore a location named Suifun could be created here.
56. Mǎqiáohé 马桥河 is from an older Manchu placename that I believe is Majan.
57. Yongmingcheng transliterated into Manchu would be *Yungming Ceng. It could also just have its Manchu name be set to Haišenwai.
58. Jixi is named for Jīguāngáshān 鸡冠噶珊, which is from a Manchu name I do not know. The direct tranliteration would be *Giguwanga Alin.
59. Jixi location is fairly large, so it could be split into two locations. Some old names I could find for places in modern Jidong county include Jiāxìnzi 夹信子 (Manchu would be Giyasindzy) and Jīlín 鸡林 (Manchu would be Gi Lin). The scheme could also simply reflect the modern naming format, and call the western half Jixi (Manchu version would be Gi Si, or more literally translated something like *Giguwanga Wargi) and the eastern half Jīdōng 鸡东 (Manchu version would be *Gi Dung or more literally translated something like *Giguwanga Dergi).
60. Jabiyan is better known as Sarhū (Sàěrhǔ 薩爾滸 in Chinese). Jièfán 界凡 (I don't know the actual Manchu name, the direct transliteration of the name is *Jiyeifan) and Barda are located somewhere in this area as well.
61 & 62. Yehe could be divided into East Yehe (Xicheng) and West Yehe (Dongcheng), since it was a pair fortified cities.
63. There are the Jurchen strongholds of Hetu Ala, Turun, and Gure. I don't know where the second two are located exactly other than that they are on the territory of Xinbin, but they were important locations during Nurhaci's unification wars.
64, sort of equivalent to modern Fushun county, is the territory of the Hunhe tribe.
65, upper reaches of the Hunhe river, is the main territory of the Wanggiyan tribe. Could either be called Hunhe or Wanggiyan
Tag names:
Jusheli should be changed to Jušeli to keep consistent wth Möllendorff
Máolián 毛怜's actual Manchu name might be Morin, but I'm not completely sure. The direct transliteration of its name into Manchu is Mooliyan
Tag borders:
Shenyang should be directly owned by Yuan. The territory of the Hunhe tribe should consist of location 64
The territory of the Jecen tribe should consist of the three locations of 60
Fushun and Qinghe should be directly owned by Yuan. The territory of the Suksuhun tribe should consist of the three locations of 63, as well as the location of 10
Wanggika should be renamed to Wanggiyan. Location 65 should be its capital
Location 31 should belong to the Yalu tribe
Kuandian should be directly owned by Yuan
Kaiyuan and Tieling should be directly owned by Yuan. The territory of the Hada tribe should consist of locations 1 and 29, and its capital should be location 1
However,
this distribution of tribes reflects the situation during the Ming dynasty. During the Yuan dynasty, most of these entities had not yet formed. Instead, the tribes that would become the Jianzhou confederacy had not yet migrated to their future homeland. The Hūrha (or Huligai) were located in modern Yilan county. The Tuowen 拖温 and Odori 斡朵里 lived alongside them, and the three tribes' territory also included the rest of the watershed of the Mudan river including Ningguta. During the Yuan-Ming transition they migrated to their later position and then formed the Jianzhou confederacy under Ming suzerainty. Later the tribes such as Suksuhun and Jecen formed. The Wanggiyan are descended from the ruling clan of Jurchen Jin, and I think they might already exist and be located in modern Jilin province. The Donggo tribe originated from the Warka and probably would be with them at this time. The Maolian and possibly the Yalu I believe already existed. The Yalu may have been part of the Maolian tribe before breaking away. The four Hada and Ula tribes did not exist yet, they inhabited territory to the east that would later become Mongol, and were actually part of the Sibe people before Nacibulu (纳齐布禄 in Chinese) broke away to form the Hùlún 扈伦 confederacy, and later his descendants founded the Ula and Hada tribes. The Hoifa tribe originate from the 马察部 of the Heilongjiang Jurchens, before they migrated south and founded the Hoifa state sometime in the 1500s, led by Wangginu 王机砮. The Yehe do seem to have existed during the Yuan dynasty. More research ought to be done on this issue, I don't claim that this picture is necessarily complete.
After reading some comments in this thread about how Manchuria's locations are noticeably underdense in comparison to Hokkaido, I have added some more location suggestions to Liaodong, increasing from 3 to 9.
Additionally, I have found that a Manchu word that is probably 'Gehun' was used for Xifeng at least as far back as the time of Nurhaci, and the capital of the Hada tribe was here. Therefore the location should be called Gehun.
Anyways,
Suggestions on Manchuria and the Jurchens (part 2):
This region does have something of a supply of names I could find in the form of the Liao dynasty's administrative divisions, which are fairly well-recorded. However the Liao dynasty vanished 200 years before the start date; its administrative structure (including most of these names) was retained by Jurchen Jin, which was destroyed by the Mongols a century before the start date. There are also some available names from the Bohai state which is two centuries again older. The Manchu names here are not necessarily 100% reliable, in many cases I could only find a Chinese transcription of the name and had to make an educated guess at what it was supposed to be.
Locations:
10. Wǔnǚshān 五女山 (Manchu would be *Ilan Hehe Alin) - a mountain in Huanren county that was once the capital of Goguryeo and in 1424 a fort was constructed there by a Jurchen chief
11. Huáirén 怀仁 (Manchu would be *Huwaiẑen) - older name of Huanren county. Probably not Yuan dynasty old, though.
12. Ji'an is a very modern name. On the other hand, here we have the opportunity to instead go way back into the past, as this place was also one of the most important cities of Goguryeo, called Gúonèi 国内 (Gungnae in Korean, and would be *Guwonei in Manchu) until that state's fall in the 7th century AD. There is a monument that commemorates one of the kings of Goguryeo here erected by a later king, which gives a town close to Ji'an the name Tàiwáng 太王, which would actually tie the location name to some thing that we know existed at the time. Liao dynasty name is Huánzhōu 桓州 (Manchu would be *Huwan Jeo)
13. Tōnghuà 通化 (Manchu is Tunggiya Ula) was established in 1877, but it takes its name from the older name of the local river, so I think it can be used. The Liao dynasty name is Zhèngzhōu 正州 (Manchu would be *Jeng Jeo)
14. Baishan's name is very modern, only dating from the mid-20th century. It is also named after Changbai Mountain, a geographical feature that is nearby but not next to this actual location. Therefore I recommend creating a location here named Shénxiāng 神乡 (Manchu would be *Šenhiyang), after a Liao dynasty county.
15. Linjiang could possibly be renamed to Lùzhōu 渌州 (Manchu would be Lu Jeo), a Liao dynasty administrative division. Linjiang (Manchu would be *Lin Giyang) is a fine alternative if it's decided the Liao names aren't the best fit.
16. A place named Chǎngbáishānsì 长白山寺 (Manchu would be Golmin Šanggiyan Alin Sy), meaning Changbai mountain Temple, is mentioned during the Ming dynasty.
17. Fǔsōng 抚松 (Manchu would be *Fusung), the name is modern but also refers to the geography (since it refers to its position in the area of the headwaters of Songhua River). The name of Mànjiāng 漫江 town is said to be from the Manchu word for a large brown bear, which is 'Nasin', and refer to their presence near a river (thus the 江), but this might be a folk etymology, and it's also said to date from the Han settlement of the region. This location could also keep its current name of "Sunggari".
18. Méngjiāng 蒙江 (Manchu name I think is Nicuhe Giyang). The original name of Jingyu County was this name of the river here, which was used to refer to the settlement and county when it became populated enough to be organised in the late Qing dynasty, before it was renamed after a war hero who died in battle here during WW2.
19. Mùzhōu 慕州 (Manchu would be *Mu Jeo). The Liao dynasty administrative division in Liuhe county. I could not find any Manchu placenames here.
20. Hǎilóng 海龙 (Manchu name is Hailun). Older name for Meihekou (which refers to the river).
21. The game has the curious issue that there are actually two locations named Hoifa, as "Huifacheng" just means "Hoifa city" in Chinese. The actual location of the capital of the Hoifa tribe is in the eastern part of the Huifacheng location, which I have marked on my map as 21. This location's Chinese name should be Huifacheng and its Manchu name should be Hoifa.
22. Liáoyuán 辽源 (Manchu would be *Liyoo Yuwan) is a modern name. During the Qing dynasty, it was called "Shengjing Paddock" Shèngjīng Wéichǎng 盛京圍場 or "Imperial Deer Garden" Huángjiā Lùyuàn 皇家鹿苑, which don't really work since the first one contains a Qing era name, and both of them refer to its use as a hunting ground by the Qing emperors. I couldn't find any other old Manchu names for it. The name Liaoyuan itself, despite being modern, does have an origin in the geography, since the Dongliao River's source and much of its course are located in in this area, so I think that would probably be the least unreasonable name. The location could also be directly named for the Dongliao River (Dōngliáo 东辽, I don't know the Manchu name of this river but the direct translation would be *Dergi Liyoo)
23. A Manchu placename from the region of Panshi I could find is Kirsa (Qǔcháihé 取柴河 in Chinese)
24. Futa (Fùtài 富太 in Chinese) is another old Manchu placename from Panshi
25. Moo Hūlan (Hūlán 呼兰 in Chinese) is another old Manchu Panshi placename
26. Jecen Dzy (Jíchǎngzi 集场子) is another old Manchu Panshi placename
27. The only Manchu placename for Huadian I could find is Hiyabsa Ko (Jiāpígōu 夹皮沟 in Chinese)
28. Todai (退抟 Tuìtuán in Chinese) is the old Manchu name for Qianjin township, Jiaohe County.
29. Mudan (Dàyángwēi 大阳崴 in Chinese) is an older name for what is now Dayang Town in Dongfeng county, Liaoyuan
30. Hailan Moo (Kuàidàmào 快大茂 in Chinese) is an old name for Kuaidamao town in Tonghua county
31. Yīng'ébù 英额布 is a place that was used by Nurhaci to train troops. It is a Manchu name, but I don't know for sure what the Manchu spelling exactly is. It might be something like "Ilha Be"
32. Ilanci (the Chinese name is Yīlāxī 一拉溪, which is ironic since the Manchu name literally means "Third")
33. Kǒuqián 口前 is a district in Yongji county, Jilin. A possible explanation for the name is that it comes from the Manchu word 'Koki', meaning tadpole, though this might be a folk etymology.
34. Shulan's name is derived from the Manchu word 'Šula', meaning fruit juice.
35. Fǎtè 法特 is a very old settlement in Shulan whose Manchu name is Fatha.
36. Changchun (Manchu would be *Cangcun) is probably named after a Liao dynasty administrative division of the same name that was actually located in Qian Gorlos County to the north. There are other theories though, and I can't find a better name that applies to the location of Changchun. The modern settlement of Changchun as we know it did not exist until after 1791.
37. Near present-day Qinjiatun town in Gongzhuling county, there was the Liao dynasty county of Wǔchāng 武昌 (Manchu would be Wucang). This could either be its own location or be used as the name for Changchun.
38. Manchu version of Nong'an would be *Nung An. This was the centre of the Lóngzhōu 隆州 (Manchu would be *Lung Jeo) prefecture during Jurchen Jin, but it was totally destroyed and its current name seems to originate from its name during Ming times.
39. Suwayan (Shuāngyáng 双阳 in Chinese) is the name of a tribe attested in the time of Nurhaci that eventually gave its name to the modern district.
I couldn't figure out what Gongjiang is supposed to be. I would personally suggest dividing it into
40. Mangkan (Mǎngkǎ 莽卡)
and
41. Temen Alin (Tǔmenlǐng 土们岭)
42. The Chinese town Chàlùkǒu 岔路口 might be named from the Manchu word 'Jalu'
43. Émùhèsuǒluó 额穆赫索罗 (modern Emu town, Dunhua) is a Chinese transliteration of a Manchu placename, but I can't deduce what the original placename really is. Direct transliteration into Manchu is *Omuhosuweluwe
44. Dàpúcháihé 大蒲柴河 has the same traits as 43. Direct transliteration is *Daipucaiho
45. I could not find a good name for the Juxeri location (it is currently named after the tribe whose territory it is in). Its current name is therefore probably the best thing availible. It could maybe be named something like "North Changbai" but that would be speculative. During Bohai a prefecture named Xìngzhōu 兴州 existed here, although its people were moved to Tieling so it seems unlikely it would still be attached to this place.
46. I believe the Manchu name for Helong is 'Holo'
47. Longjing is a recent name associated with the late Qing era migration of Koreans to this place. The older Qing name was Nánhuāng 南荒, although this doesn't refer to any settlement but means "South Wilderness". It may also have been called Nángǎng 南岗, which would make more sense as the name of a settlement, although both of these names reflect administrative policies of the Qing era. Nevertheless I was not able to find any older names for this place.
48. I wasn't able to figure out where "Kahari" comes from. In Manchu 'Gahari' means "blouse". Wangqing county's name apparently comes from a Manchu word, but I can't figure out exactly what word it is, it could be Funggin, or maybe Šancin. The direct Manchu transliteration of Wangqing is *Wangcing.
49. Itu (Chinese name is Yītōng 伊通)
50. Hailang should be renamed to Hailan
51. Dàdùchuān 大肚川 is from an old Manchu placename that I believe is Toktoba. The Manjuricised version of Dongning would be *Dung Ning, or possibly Dergi Ningguta). That name means "East of Ning" i.e. to the east of Ningguta, and it seems to have originated first in 1909, though I have no idea how old the other placename is.
52. Lǎohēishān 老黑山 is apparently from an old Manchu word, but I can't figure out what it is exactly. Direct Manchu transliteration would be *Loo Hei Šan
53. Kaiyuan (Manjuricisation of the mandarin name would be *Kaiyuwan) is the name of the Jurchen Jin era fortress that was destroyed by the Mongols. The name "Juru Hoton" used by the neighbouring location means "Pair of Ctities" and one of the cities it is referring to is Kaiyuan. These cities each have individual names. Therefore this location should probably be renamed Jurgen.
54. Likewise the Juru Hoton location itself should probably be renamed Furdan. It could also be called Sùpín 速頻, the Jurchen Jin-era name.
55. Suífēnhé 绥芬河 is a city that was founded very recently, but it is named for the Suifenhe river, whose Manchu name is Suifun. Therefore a location named Suifun could be created here.
56. Mǎqiáohé 马桥河 is from an older Manchu placename that I believe is Majan.
57. Yongmingcheng transliterated into Manchu would be *Yungming Ceng. It could also just have its Manchu name be set to Haišenwai.
58. Jixi is named for Jīguāngáshān 鸡冠噶珊, which is from a Manchu name I do not know. The direct tranliteration would be *Giguwanga Alin.
59. Jixi location is fairly large, so it could be split into two locations. Some old names I could find for places in modern Jidong county include Jiāxìnzi 夹信子 (Manchu would be Giyasindzy) and Jīlín 鸡林 (Manchu would be Gi Lin). The scheme could also simply reflect the modern naming format, and call the western half Jixi (Manchu version would be Gi Si, or more literally translated something like *Giguwanga Wargi) and the eastern half Jīdōng 鸡东 (Manchu version would be *Gi Dung or more literally translated something like *Giguwanga Dergi).
60. Jabiyan is better known as Sarhū (Sàěrhǔ 薩爾滸 in Chinese). Jièfán 界凡 (I don't know the actual Manchu name, the direct transliteration of the name is *Jiyeifan) and Barda are located somewhere in this area as well.
61 & 62. Yehe could be divided into East Yehe (Xicheng) and West Yehe (Dongcheng), since it was a pair fortified cities.
63. There are the Jurchen strongholds of Hetu Ala, Turun, and Gure. I don't know where the second two are located exactly other than that they are on the territory of Xinbin, but they were important locations during Nurhaci's unification wars.
64, sort of equivalent to modern Fushun county, is the territory of the Hunhe tribe.
65, upper reaches of the Hunhe river, is the main territory of the Wanggiyan tribe. Could either be called Hunhe or Wanggiyan
Tag names:
Jusheli should be changed to Jušeli to keep consistent wth Möllendorff
Máolián 毛怜's actual Manchu name might be Morin, but I'm not completely sure. The direct transliteration of its name into Manchu is Mooliyan
Tag borders:
Shenyang should be directly owned by Yuan. The territory of the Hunhe tribe should consist of location 64
The territory of the Jecen tribe should consist of the three locations of 60
Fushun and Qinghe should be directly owned by Yuan. The territory of the Suksuhun tribe should consist of the three locations of 63, as well as the location of 10
Wanggika should be renamed to Wanggiyan. Location 65 should be its capital
Location 31 should belong to the Yalu tribe
Kuandian should be directly owned by Yuan
Kaiyuan and Tieling should be directly owned by Yuan. The territory of the Hada tribe should consist of locations 1 and 29, and its capital should be location 1
However,
this distribution of tribes reflects the situation during the Ming dynasty. During the Yuan dynasty, most of these entities had not yet formed. Instead, the tribes that would become the Jianzhou confederacy had not yet migrated to their future homeland. The Hūrha (or Huligai) were located in modern Yilan county. The Tuowen 拖温 and Odori 斡朵里 lived alongside them, and the three tribes' territory also included the rest of the watershed of the Mudan river including Ningguta. During the Yuan-Ming transition they migrated to their later position and then formed the Jianzhou confederacy under Ming suzerainty. Later the tribes such as Suksuhun and Jecen formed. The Wanggiyan are descended from the ruling clan of Jurchen Jin, and I think they might already exist and be located in modern Jilin province. The Donggo tribe originated from the Warka and probably would be with them at this time. The Maolian and possibly the Yalu I believe already existed. The Yalu may have been part of the Maolian tribe before breaking away. The four Hada and Ula tribes did not exist yet, they inhabited territory to the east that would later become Mongol, and were actually part of the Sibe people before Nacibulu (纳齐布禄 in Chinese) broke away to form the Hùlún 扈伦 confederacy, and later his descendants founded the Ula and Hada tribes. The Hoifa tribe originate from the 马察部 of the Heilongjiang Jurchens, before they migrated south and founded the Hoifa state sometime in the 1500s, led by Wangginu 王机砮. The Yehe do seem to have existed during the Yuan dynasty. More research ought to be done on this issue, I don't claim that this picture is necessarily complete.
Note that the Juxeri location, if it keeps that name, should be changed to Jušeli to keep consistent wth Möllendorff
Suggestions on Manchuria and the Jurchens (part 3):
Heilongjiang:
Culture:
The Sibe seem to be located too far west. From what I can tell, before the Ming dynasty, the areas of Panshi, Huadian, Yitong, and parts of Changchun and Jilin were all their territories. Later part of the Xibe broke away to form what would become the Haixi Jurchens. During the Ming dynasty, it's said that the Sibe lived along the lower reaches of the Nenjiang, the middle and upper reaches of the Songhua, and the Taoer River, and were centred around Boduna. Either of these descriptions would be at odds with their placement in the game, where they seem to inhabit the Greater Khingan Mountains, and the area they inhabited is considered Jurchen and Solon territory.
Additionally, the Sibe were referred to as the "Sibe state" during the Jin, Yuan, and Ming periods, so they should probably be an actual tag instead of a society of pops. It doesn't seem like they were any less of a state than the other Jurchen tribes.
I would also argue that the Sibe should be considered culturally Jurchen. The Haixi Jurchens have a common origin with the Sibe, and the Sibe really only become separated from the rest of the culture because they came to associate with the Mongols, and remained outside Nurhaci's confederation which formed the basis for the Manchu ethnic group, leading to them being considered a distinct people today. Essentially, one way to interpret this could be to say that the Manchu and Sibe are both daughter ethnic groups of the Jurchens.
In general, the Solon and Daur are shifted too far west as well, and should extend into territory the game currently depicts as majority Nanai. Additionally, the game lacks the existence of the Ducher people, related to the Jurchens, who appeared after the collapse of Jurchen Jin.
Tags:
The Xīyánghā 西阳哈 tribe (Manchu transcription of the Chinese name would be *Siyangha) of the Jurchens exists in what is now the Harbin region, both north and south of Songhua. They were destroyed by Ming in 1395
My best attempt to put together a culture/tag map (borders between the Solon, Daur, and Oroqen were seemingly very fluid so these are pretty rough guidelines):
Locations:
66. Bodune is a large location that could be split up. Bodune proper is located in the western half. The eastern half is today known as Fuyu county. This name comes from the ancient Fuyu people who were settled here, so it has a long history of connection to this place. During the Qing dynasty, Boduna New City was established here. This was also the location of the Liao dynasty prefecture Níngjiāngzhōu 宁江州 So this location could either be called Fúyú 扶余, Níngjiāng, or Bódūnà Xīnchéng 伯都納新城). During the Ming dynasty, the Fúyú 扶余 Uriankhai Guard existed. I am not sure exactly what its location is. It is somewhere in the lower reaches of the Nenjiang river, it is also mentioned as being in the Qiqihar region, but could also be here.
67. Dabusu (大布苏) is an old Mongol placename in Qian'an. "Huolin" is the name of a city that is actually in the Tuliemao location and shouldn't be used for this location. I will cover that region in a later post.
68. Haolibao (好力保) is another old Mongol placename
69. Ulantuga (乌兰图嘎) is the name of a Mongol town in Qian Gorlos county
70. Haiqing (海青) is the only placename with a Mongol origin I could find in Changling county, although it's not any older than the 19th century. Changling county itself is named after a geographical feature so its name might be appropriate.
71. Yushu was known as Gūyúshùtún 孤榆树屯 (Manchu would be *Guyušutun) before becoming a county.
72. Túntǎhǔ 屯塔虎 (could also be called Túntǎhǔchéng 屯塔虎城) was the capital city of Changchun county during the Liao dynasty
73. Chaghanhot
74. Chéngsìjiāzi 城四家子
75. Old Mongol name of Taonan is 沙吉盖毛都 Shājígàimáodōu
76. Hatuqi (old Mongol name)
77. Momoge (old Mongol name)
78. Ānguǎng 安广 is a name that dates from the Liao dynasty and is still used today
79. Zalai 大赉 is a Mongol placename, and the name of a banner during the Qing dynasty
80. Baolawendu 包拉温都 is a Mongol placename
81. The Jurchen Jin era name of Qiqihar is Pánggé 庞葛城, so it might be better to rename it that. Qiqihar would be renamed to Cicihar to keep consistent with Möllendorff. However, it should be noted that it only acquired that name in 1691, and previously it was known as Bukui 卜奎, from a Daur word. During the Ming dynasty, the Fúyú 扶余 Uriankhai Guard existed. I am not sure exactly what its location is. It is somewhere in the lower reaches of the Nenjiang river, it could be located here, or somewhere nearby.
82. Misile 梅里斯, Daur placename. This area was inhabited by the Daur and Solon people.
83. Gaqikan Huodure 嘎齐堪霍都热, Daur placename.
84. Present day Yi'an county used to be the capital of the Yikemingan 依克明安 tribe.
85. Tailaiqitun 泰来气屯, from which comes the name of Tailai county
86. Dalaiketun 大来克屯
87. Kalkartu, old Mongol placename from Keshan (though during the Qing dynasty this was not Mongol territory)
88. Babaibulak, Mongol etymology of Baiquan (though during the Qing dynasty this was not Mongol territory)
89. Yangshu (today 兴旺) is an old Solon village
90. Bailu 百露 is an old Solon village, today 今百路村
91. It doesn't really make sense for Shangjing to still be called that since it was totally destroyed and isn't the capital of anything any more. It should probably either be called Huìníng 会宁 (Manchu would be *Huining) or Alcuka (its Qing period name).
92. "Hulawen" is a possible predecessor of the word Harbin, but it's disputed, honestly it would probably just be best to call it Harbin (the Manchu spelling is identical to English)
93. Modern Shuangcheng district is named after Bùdá 布达 and Dáhé 达河, two cities that existed here during Jurchen Jin. I don't know exactly where each one was, but it should probably be possible to find out
94. Dàluólèmì 大罗勒密 is a transliteration of an old Manchu name for a place in Fangzheng county. I can't figure out what it is exactly (direct Manchu transcription is *Dailuwolomi). This location's trade good should probably be lumber. Ilan Hala is a very large location and it is needed to break it up
95. Bin 宾 has been in use as a placename since Jurchen Jin.
96. Mulanda, today's Mulan county is named after the river
97. Chonggulku was the name of a Manchu settlement that give rise to Tonghe county. The current in-game name, Chàlín 岔林, dates to the Qianlong period and might also be fine.
98. Mayan is the Manchu name of a river in Yanshou
99. Shangzhi was originally named Zhūhé 珠河, a transcription of the Manchu world Nicuhe, which means "pearl".
100. Lalin is a Manchu placename in Wuchang
101. Suihua comes from the Manchu word 'Suiha'
102. The Manchu name for Hailun is just Hailun (with no accent marks). It means "otter" in Manchu
103. Hvlan (Hūlan in Möllendorff) is the same name as Hulan, both referring to the river. Tieli was originally known as Tiěshān 铁山 during the Qing dynasty, this name can probably be used for this location.
104. Shírén 石人, for Qinggang county. There are some Jurchen Jin tombs here.
105. Suiling comes from the Manchu word 'Suilan'
106. Anda's name comes from Jida, which is Mongol
107. Guru 古龙
108. Gucha 古恰
109. Talaha's Manchu name is Talahayag
110. From what I could find, Mishan is a rather recent name. Bita (Péidé 裴德) is a Manchu placename here
111. Kuitun Bira (today 当壁) is another Manchu placename in Mishan.
112. Hulin is named from a river, whose Manchu name is Cifuri Niyehe
113. Abuci Bira (阿布沁河) is the name of the river that 阿北乡 is named for
114. Boli
115. Burhatung is a Manchu placename in Linkou county
116. Bózhōu 渤州 is a prefecture that existed during the Bohai and Liao dynasties. The modern town of Gucheng in Linkou is named after it.
117. Giyamusi
118. This is the capital of 桃温军民万户府, a Yuan dynasty military administrative unit. This location should therefore be called Táowēn. The Manchu etymology of it might be 'Ulden', but I am not sure. It seems possible to me that the Tuowen tribe of Jurchens is the same as this, but I'm not sure.
119. Ǒuhǎnhé 呕罕河 is a Ming era outpost on the river today called Woken. Yuèlǐdǔ 越里笃 (Manchu transcription would be *Yuwelidu) is the name of a Jurchen tribe that inhabited this region during the Liao dynasty. Right now it would be territory of the Huligai tribe. I don't know where "Wehe" comes from, except maybe from the Woken?
120. The old Nanai toponym for Raohe is Noro Bira
121. The old name of Fuyuan county is the Nanai word 'Iliga'
122. Bira Hoo Seme (别拉洪) is an old Manchu placename in Fuyuan.
123. Gaijin 街津口乡 is a Nanai placename in Tongjiang
124. Bachen 八岔乡is a Nanai placename in Tongjiang
125. Jixian county's name comes from the Manchu word 'Gihi'.
126. Baoqing county's name comes from the Manchu word 'Bocihe'
127. Shuangyashan's Manchu name is Juru Niyehe Alin
128. 大佳河乡 and 小佳河镇 in Raohe both get their names from a Manchu word 佳气, which I think is 'Jajin'
129. Hegang's name cames from the Manchu word 'Horigan'. The territory of Hegang city seems to have been inhabited by the Daur and Solon before Qing. I couldn't figure out where "Tulgūr" comes from.
130. Tuōlún 脱伦, Ming era outpost on 都鲁河
131. Wǔtún 五屯, Ming era outpost on 梧桐河
132. Jídá 集达, Ming era outpost on 鸭蛋河
133. Yichun's name comes from the name of a river, so it's probably okay as a location name. Tieli is a old placename from Bohai period, but its actual centre was close to Ilan Hala, so it can't be used.
134. Jiāyīn's name comes from the Manchu word Jaya. Modern Jiayin county was the territory of the Daur or Solon during these times.
135. Ulaga 乌拉嘎's name is Solon in origin
136. Taowen's name is the same as 118, and both refer to the same river. 136 could therefore be renamed to Fēnglín 丰林, the name of another river there. The river's name is probably of recent origin though.
137. Aigun's Manchu name is Aihūn. This place was originally inhabited by the Ducher ethnic group.
138. Shuǐdádá 水達達 (Manchu transcription would be *Šuidada) is a Yuan dynasty circuit whose capital was located in what is now Tangyuan county.
139. Ilha (Daur etymology)
140. Kēluòěr 科洛尔 is the Manchu etymology of Keluo town, Nenjiang city. I cannot figure out what word exactly is being transcribed. The transcription into Manchu would be *Kolor)
141. Huòlóngmén 霍龙门 has a Daur etymology
142. Mergen (modern Nenjiang City)
143. Xunke's name comes from Qíkètètún 奇克特屯, which is Oroqen etymology
144. The Manchu etymology of 逊河镇 is 'Sun Bira'
145. Chele 车勒 is the Oroqen etymolgy of 新鄂
146. Púyǔ 蒲与, a Jurchen Jin circuit.
147. Nancha is named after a river 南岔, whose etymology I do not know
148. Wōjíkūnhé 窝集昆河 is a Ming era outpost
149. Kuren 库仁 is the Evenk etymology for 古莲镇 in Mohe county
150. Mùhé 木河 is Ming era outpost in Mohe (I don't know exactly where in the county it is)
151. Tahe was known as Taha durng the Ming dynasty, there was an outpost there, and its name is either an Oroqen, Daur, or Mongol etymology
152. Waragan 瓦拉干镇 has an Evenk etymology
153. Kaikukang 开库康乡 has an Oroqen etymology
154. Pangu is a Ming era outpost
155. Yīxīkěn 依西肯乡 has an Oroqen or Daur etymology
156. Baiyinna 白银纳 has an Oroqen etymology
157. Humar
158. Jagdaqi 加格达奇 has an Oroqen etymology
159. 小扬气镇 is named for the Yángqì river 扬气
160. Dawusu 大乌苏镇 has an Oroqen etymologu
161. Mageda
162. Targen 塔尔根镇 has an Oroqen etymology
163. Hūcìwēnjiāng 忽刺温江 is a 14th century placename for Hūlan
164. Fǔdámíjiù 甫答迷旧 is a 14th century city at 鸟河乡, in Bin county
166. Wòduǒlián 斡朵怜 (probably equivalent to the Odoli tribe) is another Yuan tumen. This location would be the capital of Odoli. Located in modern Madacun, Yilan
167. Ilan Hala
168. Tuōwòlián 脱斡怜 is another Yuan tumen. Mongol name is Togolin. This would be located at Wanlihetong, Huachuan county. An alternative theory is that it is located near the mouth of the 多林河 in the lower reaches of the Amur, but this placename seems to have fallen out of use since the Qing era and I cannot find where it would be. I cannot find any references to this name other than to the tumen itself, so I'm not sure if it should be a tag or not.
167. Lahasusu
169. Bayan Susu
170. Zhàozhōu
171. Sartu
172. Zhālóng
173. Futi
174. Bèikǔjiāng 孛苦江 is another tumen. It could either be located in the Qiqihar area, or in the southwest of I cannot find any references to this name other than to the tumen itself, so I'm not sure if it should be a tag or not.
175 and 137. Aigun was originally located on the north bank of the Amur before 1685. Therefore my suggestion is to rename the current Aigun location "Sahaliyan Ula" (Hēilóngjiāng 黑龙江 in Chinese), and created a new location called Aytyun (Aigun) on the north bank of the Amur, out of the Techa location.
Arkh4ngelsk did refine parts of it on page 13, and Raimond77 refined Sakhalin on page 12. I am looking at refining the lower portions, but this man is doing gods work, let him cook.
Culture:
The Sibe seem to be located too far west. From what I can tell, before the Ming dynasty, the areas of Panshi, Huadian, Yitong, and parts of Changchun and Jilin were all their territories. Later part of the Xibe broke away to form what would become the Haixi Jurchens. During the Ming dynasty, it's said that the Sibe lived along the lower reaches of the Nenjiang, the middle and upper reaches of the Songhua, and the Taoer River, and were centred around Boduna. Either of these descriptions would be at odds with their placement in the game, where they seem to inhabit the Greater Khingan Mountains, and the area they inhabited is considered Jurchen and Solon territory.
Additionally, the Sibe were referred to as the "Sibe state" during the Jin, Yuan, and Ming periods, so they should probably be an actual tag instead of a society of pops. It doesn't seem like they were any less of a state than the other Jurchen tribes.
I would also argue that the Sibe should be considered culturally Jurchen. The Haixi Jurchens have a common origin with the Sibe, and the Sibe really only become separated from the rest of the culture because they came to associate with the Mongols, and remained outside Nurhaci's confederation which formed the basis for the Manchu ethnic group, leading to them being considered a distinct people today. Essentially, one way to interpret this could be to say that the Manchu and Sibe are both daughter ethnic groups of the Jurchens.
In general, the Solon and Daur are shifted too far west as well, and should extend into territory the game currently depicts as majority Nanai. Additionally, the game lacks the existence of the Ducher people, related to the Jurchens, who appeared after the collapse of Jurchen Jin.
Tags:
The Xīyánghā 西阳哈 tribe (Manchu transcription of the Chinese name would be *Siyangha) of the Jurchens exists in what is now the Harbin region, both north and south of Songhua. They were destroyed by Ming in 1395
My best attempt to put together a culture/tag map (borders between the Solon, Daur, and Oroqen were seemingly very fluid so these are pretty rough guidelines):
Locations:
66. Bodune is a large location that could be split up. Bodune proper is located in the western half. The eastern half is today known as Fuyu county. This name comes from the ancient Fuyu people who were settled here, so it has a long history of connection to this place. During the Qing dynasty, Boduna New City was established here. This was also the location of the Liao dynasty prefecture Níngjiāngzhōu 宁江州 So this location could either be called Fúyú 扶余, Níngjiāng, or Bódūnà Xīnchéng 伯都納新城). During the Ming dynasty, the Fúyú 扶余 Uriankhai Guard existed. I am not sure exactly what its location is. It is somewhere in the lower reaches of the Nenjiang river, it is also mentioned as being in the Qiqihar region, but could also be here.
67. Dabusu (大布苏) is an old Mongol placename in Qian'an. "Huolin" is the name of a city that is actually in the Tuliemao location and shouldn't be used for this location. I will cover that region in a later post.
68. Haolibao (好力保) is another old Mongol placename
69. Ulantuga (乌兰图嘎) is the name of a Mongol town in Qian Gorlos county
70. Haiqing (海青) is the only placename with a Mongol origin I could find in Changling county, although it's not any older than the 19th century. Changling county itself is named after a geographical feature so its name might be appropriate.
71. Yushu was known as Gūyúshùtún 孤榆树屯 (Manchu would be *Guyušutun) before becoming a county.
72. Túntǎhǔ 屯塔虎 (could also be called Túntǎhǔchéng 屯塔虎城) was the capital city of Changchun county during the Liao dynasty
73. Chaghanhot
74. Chéngsìjiāzi 城四家子
75. Old Mongol name of Taonan is 沙吉盖毛都 Shājígàimáodōu
76. Hatuqi (old Mongol name)
77. Momoge (old Mongol name)
78. Ānguǎng 安广 is a name that dates from the Liao dynasty and is still used today
79. Zalai 大赉 is a Mongol placename, and the name of a banner during the Qing dynasty
80. Baolawendu 包拉温都 is a Mongol placename
81. Qiqihar should be renamed to Cicihar to keep consistent with Möllendorff. However, it should be noted that it only acquired that name in 1691, and previously it was known as Bukui 卜奎, from a Daur word. During the Ming dynasty, the Fúyú 扶余 Uriankhai Guard existed. I am not sure exactly what its location is. It is somewhere in the lower reaches of the Nenjiang river, it could be located here, or somewhere nearby.
82. Misile 梅里斯, Daur placename. This area was inhabited by the Daur and Solon people.
83. Gaqikan Huodure 嘎齐堪霍都热, Daur placename.
84. Present day Yi'an county used to be the capital of the Yikemingan 依克明安 tribe.
85. Tailaiqitun 泰来气屯, from which comes the name of Tailai county
86. Dalaiketun 大来克屯
87. Kalkartu, old Mongol placename from Keshan (though during the Qing dynasty this was not Mongol territory)
88. Babaibulak, Mongol etymology of Baiquan (though during the Qing dynasty this was not Mongol territory)
89. Yangshu (today 兴旺) is an old Solon village
90. Bailu 百露 is an old Solon village, today 今百路村
91. It doesn't really make sense for Shangjing to still be called that since it was totally destroyed and isn't the capital of anything any more. It should probably either be called Huìníng 会宁 (Manchu would be *Huining) or Alcuka (its Qing period name).
92. "Hulawen" is a possible predecessor of the word Harbin, but it's disputed, honestly it would probably just be best to call it Harbin (the Manchu spelling is identical to English)
93. Modern Shuangcheng district is named after Bùdá 布达 and Dáhé 达河, two cities that existed here during Jurchen Jin. I don't know exactly where each one was, but it should probably be possible to find out
94. Dàluólèmì 大罗勒密 is a transliteration of an old Manchu name for a place in Fangzheng county. I can't figure out what it is exactly (direct Manchu transcription is *Dailuwolomi). This location's trade good should probably be lumber. Ilan Hala is a very large location and it is needed to break it up
95. Bin 宾 has been in use as a placename since Jurchen Jin.
96. Mulanda, today's Mulan county is named after the river
97. Chonggulku was the name of a Manchu settlement that give rise to Tonghe county. The current in-game name, Chàlín 岔林, dates to the Qianlong period and might also be fine.
98. Mayan is the Manchu name of a river in Yanshou
99. Shangzhi was originally named Zhūhé 珠河, a transcription of the Manchu world Nicuhe, which means "pearl".
100. Lalin is a Manchu placename in Wuchang
101. Suihua comes from the Manchu word 'Suiha'
102. The Manchu name for Hailun is just Hailun (with no accent marks). It means "otter" in Manchu
103. Hvlan (Hūlan in Möllendorff) is the same name as Hulan, both referring to the river. Tieli was originally known as Tiěshān 铁山 during the Qing dynasty, this name can probably be used for this location.
104. Shírén 石人, for Qinggang county. There are some Jurchen Jin tombs here.
105. Suiling comes from the Manchu word 'Suilan'
106. Anda's name comes from Jida, which is Mongol
107. Guru 古龙
108. Gucha 古恰
109. Talaha's Manchu name is Talahayag
110. From what I could find, Mishan is a rather recent name. Bita (Péidé 裴德) is a Manchu placename here
111. Kuitun Bira (today 当壁) is another Manchu placename in Mishan.
112. Hulin is named from a river, whose Manchu name is Cifuri Niyehe
113. Abuci Bira (阿布沁河) is the name of the river that 阿北乡 is named for
114. Boli
115. Burhatung is a Manchu placename in Linkou county
116. Bózhōu 渤州 is a prefecture that existed during the Bohai and Liao dynasties. The modern town of Gucheng in Linkou is named after it.
117. Giyamusi
118. Shuǐdádá 水達達 (Manchu transcription would be *Šuidada) is a Yuan dynasty circuit whose capital was located in what is now Tangyuan county
119. Yuèlǐdǔ 越里笃 (Manchu transcription would be *Yuwelidu) is the name of a Jurchen tribe that inhabited this region during the Liao dynasty. Right now it would be territory of the Huligai tribe. I don't know where "Wehe" comes from. There is a river here called 倭肯河, that's the closest thing I could find.
120. The old Nanai toponym for Raohe is Noro Bira
121. The old name of Fuyuan county is the Nanai word 'Iliga'
122. Bira Hoo Seme (别拉洪) is an old Manchu placename in Fuyuan.
123. Gaijin 街津口乡 is a Nanai placename in Tongjiang
124. Bachen 八岔乡is a Nanai placename in Tongjiang
125. Jixian county's name comes from the Manchu word 'Gihi'.
126. Baoqing county's name comes from the Manchu word 'Bocihe'
127. Shuangyashan's Manchu name is Juru Niyehe Alin
128. 大佳河乡 and 小佳河镇 in Raohe both get their names from a Manchu word 佳气, which I think is 'Jajin'
129. Hegang's name cames from the Manchu word 'Horigan'. The territory of Hegang city seems to have been inhabited by the Daur and Solon before Qing. I couldn't figure out where "Tulgūr" comes from.
130. Tuōlún 脱伦, Ming era outpost on 都鲁河
131. Wǔtún 五屯, Ming era outpost on 梧桐河
132. Jídá 集达, Ming era outpost on 鸭蛋河
133. Yichun's name comes from the name of a river, so it's probably okay as a location name. Tieli is a old placename from Bohai period, but its actual centre was close to Ilan Hala, so it can't be used.
134. Jiāyīn's name comes from the Manchu word Jaya. Modern Jiayin county was the territory of the Daur or Solon during these times.
135. Ulaga 乌拉嘎's name is Solon in origin
136. Taowen
137. Aigun's Manchu name is Aihūn. This place was originally inhabited by the Ducher ethnic group.
138. Wànhùfǔ 萬戶府
139. Ilha (Daur etymology)
140. Kēluòěr 科洛尔 is the Manchu etymology of Keluo town, Nenjiang city. I cannot figure out what word exactly is being transcribed. The transcription into Manchu would be *Kolor)
141. Huòlóngmén 霍龙门 has a Daur etymology
142. Mergen (modern Nenjiang City)
143. Xunke's name comes from Qíkètètún 奇克特屯, which is Oroqen etymology
144. The Manchu etymology of 逊河镇 is 'Sun Bira'
145. Chele 车勒 is the Oroqen etymolgy of 新鄂
146. Púyǔ 蒲与, a Jurchen Jin circuit.
147. Nancha is named after a river 南岔, whose etymology I do not know
148. Wōjíkūnhé 窝集昆河 is a Ming era outpost
149. Kuren 库仁 is the Evenk etymology for 古莲镇 in Mohe county
150. Mùhé 木河 is Ming era outpost in Mohe (I don't know exactly where in the county it is)
151. Tahe was known as Taha durng the Ming dynasty, there was an outpost there, and its name is either an Oroqen, Daur, or Mongol etymology
152. Waragan 瓦拉干镇 has an Evenk etymology
153. Kaikukang 开库康乡 has an Oroqen etymology
154. Pangu is a Ming era outpost
155. Yīxīkěn 依西肯乡 has an Oroqen or Daur etymology
156. Baiyinna 白银纳 has an Oroqen etymology
157. Humar
158. Jagdaqi 加格达奇 has an Oroqen etymology
159. 小扬气镇 is named for the Yángqì river 扬气
160. Dawusu 大乌苏镇 has an Oroqen etymologu
161. Mageda
162. Targen 塔尔根镇 has an Oroqen etymology
163. Hūcìwēnjiāng 忽刺温江 is a 14th century placename for Hūlan
164. Fǔdámíjiù 甫答迷旧 is a 14th century city at 鸟河乡, in Bin county
It’s been generally made clear that the devs want map feedback centralized in the map feedback threads.
I also think it’s better for discussion to have everything in one thread, because everyone can see everyone else’s work and be in dialog with it. Otherwise people just have to start reading four different threads to be up to date, and if one of those threads fades off the first page or two no one (including the devs) will ever see that suggestion again.
Here, clearly, the Yuán Dynasty of China controls much of the territory, while all of the Siberian expanses are “open” to colonization. Considering Manchuria, the Jurchen tribes posed a tricky question, as some of them were more settled and Chinese-influenced while others were more nomadic and pastoralist, and some were in between. Thus, we decided to represent the more settled tribes that would later confederate into the Manchu as separate countries vassals of Yuán, while there is also Jurchen population inside the borders of Yuán itself and the most nomadic of them represented as Society of Pops.
Quite a varied cultural landscape, as these areas are populated by many different peoples, sometimes expanding through a wide area while others are more localized. On the other hand, the Mongolian Plateau is very much dominated by Mongolian culture.
Very marked distribution of resources, with Mongolia and Manchuria rich in livestock and horses (as one would expect from the horse lords) while the forests of Siberia are full of fur and wild game and the northern coasts are a big source of ivory (from the world-famous arctic elephant herds, of course). However, the mountainous areas also include precious metals like gold and silver, so their colonization may thus prove quite beneficial. Another thing of note is that fish can be found abundantly not only along the coasts but also along the major rivers crossing Siberia.
The only countries we have population to show here are the Jurchen ones, with the mighty Yuán ever encroaching on them. Concerning the populations of the locations, one thing I have to mention is that you will see many of them with the value of 150, that is the general default value that we used for the less populated areas of all eastern Siberia, where population estimates of the period don’t allow for much fine tuning. It is probably something that we will adjust.
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