Tinto Maps #22 - 11th of October 2024 - Mongolia, Manchuria and Eastern Siberia

[Cuke]

A few more notes on the region eastwards from Kolyma:
Vstrechny -> ENMYNVEEM (Enmynveyem if double E is too confusing; Vstrechny is the Soviet gold mining site located on the river with local name)
Orlovka -> KARAL'VEEM (my map says that Orlovka is south from Keperveem, so I propose to use the Chukchi name of Bilibino, which is a north from Keperveem)
Aliskerovo -> PAUKTUVAAM (common root of the two nearby rivers, while Aliskerovo is a Soviet mining camp named after Mr Aliskerov who must have been instrumental in prospecting the area a century after the game ends)
Raucha -> RAUCHUA (wiki ref)
There are too many locations called "Chuvan" I think one would suffice.

Lower Kolyma locations:
Cherskey -> Cherskiy maybe? It's just a surname.
Kolymskoie -> Kolymskoye (standardization of final cyrillic -ое)
Xalima -> Xalyma (standardization with Orto Xalyma upstream)

 

[Wildrake]

View attachment 1200660
Split up the Yeniseians up into Kott, Ket, Pumpokol and Arin and add the Kamasin as a standin for Sayan Samoyeds.
View attachment 1200661
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Ket only migrated to their current domain in 17th century, keep that in mind. The originate in Northern Mongolia

 

[Wildrake]

View attachment 1236591
What do you think about dividing the Evenks into groups?

The continental Nivkhs were vassals of the Yuan and were called Jilemi, the Udege people were also vassals, but they had several tribes (including the Orochi), I don't know which ones yet. The Nanai and Ulchi were engaged in robbery, probably because they did not have consolidated power. I have almost finished dividing the Lugui and Kuvei confederacy into separate tribes. I have some tentative names for them, but I don't know which tribe to refer to yet. Lugui is diplomatically under Yuan's rule, his trading posts are located there, but in fact the tribes are independent. In the game, it can be imagined as an international organization where the Yuan is the leader and the other tribes are the participants. The Ainu in Kamchatka have become larger because there is a Kuri clan there, which appeared in the late 13th or early 14th century and had 7 settlements, 3 of which have historical names, in the best years the Kuri had a population of 2,000 to 3,000 people. I'll talk about this in a bit more detail later. In the 13th century, the coastal population of Sakhalin consisted of at least 22,025 people. However, I do not yet have calculation formulas for those who lived in the interior of the island.
I'm sorry if I wrote some terms incorrectly in English. The translation from Chinese may be very different for your language. This is in case you are trying to find information for your interest.

Kets and other Yeniseyans should be moved to the south, they were migrating northward up to 17-18th century, their original homeland is around Northern Mongolia-Tuva

 

[Slime99]

Ket only migrated to their current domain in 17th century, keep that in mind. The originate in Northern Mongolia

"Northern Mongolia" as in where? I am pretty sure that by the 14th century the Mongols had taken over most of the plateau and modern day Inner Mongolia. They certainly didn't live in the Minusinsk basin as that's where the Khakass lived. And to the east lived the progenitors of the Yakuts in the Kurykan culture so they weren't on lake Baikal either. So where exactly did they live then?

 

[Wildrake]

"Northern Mongolia" as in where? I am pretty sure that by the 14th century the Mongols had taken over most of the plateau and modern day Inner Mongolia. They certainly didn't live in the Minusinsk basin as that's where the Khakass lived. And to the east lived the progenitors of the Yakuts in the Kurykan culture so they weren't on lake Baikal either. So where exactly did they live then?

Their 17th century extension actually includes Minusinsk basin (small enchave on the bottom). On the map above you can see that Ketts live north of their 17th century area, they continued migrating northward afterward.
It is hard to say exactly where they should be in 1337 but it is known that 17th cnetury spread is "recent" while their Urheimat is located in Tuva, Southern baikal and northern Mongolia

 

[Reimond77]

You're wrong. There is similar information about many peoples, and they really migrated to the north. I can even tell you the exact dates - from 1685 to 1720. This is due to the end of the Little Ice Age, and not to nomadic migration.

I have studied the islands of the Sea of Okhotsk in detail. And it also says that the Uilta moved to Sakhalin only in the 17th century, but it turned out they were described by Yuan.

By the way, I finished studying this region and put all the information I found on the maps, and I have already written a very short accompanying text. Which explains how it all came to this. It turned out to be about 13 pages. Yes, it's very brief. We know absolutely everything about them! Even what they shit on - mostly fish, some venison and bear meat, but rice and tea were imported from Japan, and medicinal herbs, pork and chicken, and some horse meat from China.

All that remains is to translate it into English, arrange it beautifully, and finally lay out 15 mini-maps. I can't wait to have time for that. I would like to hear feedback.

 

[Slime99]

View attachment 1245459
Their 17th century extension actually includes Minusinsk basin (small enchave on the bottom). On the map above you can see that Ketts live north of their 17th century area, they continued migrating northward afterward.
It is hard to say exactly where they should be in 1337 but it is known that 17th cnetury spread is "recent" while their Urheimat is located in Tuva, Southern baikal and northern Mongolia

In the Early Medieval period the Khakass used to inhabit the Minusinsk basin already. So the Yeniseyans may actually be a recent incursion there, or they lived alongside the Khakass. They could have inhabited the areas north of the Khakass, however to the South lived the Altai Turks such as the Naimans, and to the southeast lived the Oirats.

To the south of the Yeniseyans were Sayan Samoyeds, which also may be a later incursion from the Upper Ob culture, or a remnant population that was cut off from other Samoyeds when the Khakass arrived in the 4th century.

 

[zeruosi]

I am currently making a huge map of the indigenous semi-settled and nomadic settlements of Sakhalin. I try not only to indicate the location of the minorities on it, but also to indicate all the historical names of the villages. When I started, I thought there would be a little more than a hundred villages. But it turned out that there are about 3,000 settlements on the island, of which about 500 have their own historical names. Among them there are 9 settlements (trading posts) belonging to China; 4 settlements belonging to the Ulchi; 1 settlement belonging to the Nanai. I've done more than half the work. During the New Year holidays, I want to finish and post along with an additional short description, which I have not yet compiled.

Now I have prepared a small cultural map for Sakhalin (55 locations), Hokkaido (60 locations), the Kuril Islands (11 locations) and the north of Honshu, because I have a source for him about the location of the Ainu (Nanbu) in the 14th century. In addition, the Ulchi have an oral legend about distant islands and it intersects with one Wikipedia article about that region, but I'll tell you about it when I finish the map.

View attachment 1231135

This terrifying granularity, I can already imagine the screaming of my PC when starting the game

 

[Cuke]

A few comments about the Yenisey basin (left bank, down to Tomsk in the west). Suggestions in CAPITALS.

Mangazeya - possibly a corruption of a native name; Anthony Jenkinson used MOLGOMZAYA (Molgomzaia), which also corresponds to the development of the town's name over time in Russian sources.
Messoyakha - a local river;
Dudinka - a local river; the settlement was known as DUDINO during the game's timeframe. Another option is the local variation TUTHYN.
Khantayskoye - a lakes name; allegedly, the local Yakut (why Yakut of all peoples) name is KUTARMO or Kutarama.
from Erachimo to Turu - names of subsidiaries of Lower Tunguska river.
Turukhansk - a Russian settlement name for a town on river TURUKHAN (Turukan).
Inbatskoye and Verkhneimbatsk - my sources suggest that they refer to the same Russian settlement in the mouth of the Inba (Upper Imbak). Alternatively, they could mean 2 different settlements at the mouths of Upper and Lower Imbak. I propose to rename Inbatskoye to PAKULIKHA (a corrupted local river name) and either keep Verkhneimbatsk or rename it to Inbatskoye. I use this page (a school/college assignment, by the looks of it) to check Russian names in the area. I think a lot of small villages between Turukhansk and Verkhneimbatsk on Google maps date back to 1700s.
Bakhtinsky - BAKHTA (the current name is an adjective).
Komsa and Bor - keep them even though Bor is a XX century name. It is located by the mouth of the Podkamennaya Tunguska, and the older settlements here were referred to by the river name. I think Bor is easier to read and therefore more appropriate.
Selo Yartsevo - YARTSEVO (unless it has to be differentiated from another Yartsevo; "selo" means "village" here, the common practice is to drop such designations).
Ust'-Ozernoye - russian wiki suggests that the Selkup name for it is KYNDABU;
Pervomayskoye - PYSHKINO. Russian wiki says Pyshkino-Troitskoye was renamed to Pervomayskoye in 1965. I suggest dropping the Troitskoye bit - it is a common reference to a Trinity church or monastery on this site.
Mariinsk - renamed after Empress Maria in 1857. Original Russian name is KIYSKOYE which refers to the river Kia/Kiya/Kyya.
Itatsky - ITAT (the current name is an adjective)
Verkh-Chebula & Bolshoy Uluy - CHEBULA & ULUY. I propose to get rid of Russian "verkh" (upper) & "bolshoy" (major) and keep the local names as they are.
Krasnoyarsk - everything in the area (Enisey's left bank) bears Russian names but this place has a local name (spelled Kyzyl-Char in wiki). The more appropriate period name is KRASNY YAR (Krasniy Yar).
Dzerzhinskoye - ZAIMKA or ROZHDESTVENSKOYE. Mr Felix Dzerzhinsky doesn't belong to this timeframe.
Kazachinskoye - alternative suggestion is KAZACHIY LUG
Kuzmovka - Kuz'movka (with asterisk to signify "Ь" - unless it has to be differentiated from a different Kuzmovka somewhere)
Teya, Yeruda, Kiya, Tis, Vel'mo and Enashimo are local rivers; YENASHIMO would be a more standardised spelling here.
Tumara - TURAMA (this is the modern spelling; it looks more relevant because a lot of rivers here end with -mo).
Finally for tonight, I tried to find a Tsentral... and failed I think it refers to a penal settlement. I just propose to DELETE it and merge with CHADOBETS, which is a valid river that goes all the way to Yarkino.

 

[Reimond77]

This terrifying granularity, I can already imagine the screaming of my PC when starting the game

This map is very outdated, man. Very strongly.

I've made a shape change in 3 locations. I corrected the name for the Oroks and Oris, adding alternative names in parentheses. I expanded the Oris culture by adding small minorities to the southern part of Sakhalin, the Kuril Islands, and Kamchatka. I also added 6 more cultures and removed 1. A southern group of Nivkhs appeared on the continent, separate from the Nivkhs of Jilemi.

It sounds very unusual, especially about the removal of culture, so the text is definitely needed.
My computer won't even be able to run the game. I will play on YouTube and sometimes go to the forum to ask for something to add.

 

[Wildrake]

In the Early Medieval period the Khakass used to inhabit the Minusinsk basin already. So the may actually be a recent incursion there. They could have inhabited the areas east of the Khakass, however to the South lived the Altai Turks such as the Naimans, and to the southeast lived the Oirats.
View attachment 1245497
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The rule of Mongolic or Khakassian polities over some land doesn't imply that this land was homogenous. According to Matthias Castren's "Trip to Siberia" Kett's oral tradition implies they came from the head of Yenisei river from highlands, which is located in Tuva. In order to move from Tuva to Angara-Yenisei Valley you need to pass through Minusinsk basin, although this an old oral tradition and their migration from there occurred in 9-13 centuries it is still something to consider. Also, assimilation is a thing, one of khakass tribes, Paigudug, originally were Baikott Yeniseyan people in Minusinsk basin, who were Turkified by 17 century, when they were already called "Baikot Tatars" by the Russians. Similarly, Arin and Yarin groups of Yeniseian people were assimilated into Khakass Kachin group (even stated on Wikipedia). What I am saying is that Yeniseyans should probably be slightly more present in the south of your current area and slightly less in the north and east.

 

[Slime99]

The rule of Mongolic or Khakassian polities over some land doesn't imply that this land was homogenous. According to Matthias Castren's "Trip to Siberia" Kett's oral tradition implies they came from the head of Yenisei river from highlands, which is located in Tuva. In order to move from Tuva to Angara-Yenisei Valley you need to pass through Minusinsk basin, although this an old oral tradition and their migration from there occurred in 9-13 centuries it is still something to consider. Also, assimilation is a thing, one of khakass tribes, Paigudug, originally were Baikott Yeniseyan people in Minusinsk basin, who were Turkified by 17 century, when they were already called "Baikot Tatars" by the Russians. Similarly, Arin and Yarin groups of Yeniseian people were assimilated into Khakass Kachin group (even stated on Wikipedia). What I am saying is that Yeniseyans should probably be slightly more present in the south of your current area and slightly less in the north and east.

Lack of an archaeological culture in Tuva that can be linked to Yeniseyans does mean that they likely didn't exist there. The Arin lived in the northern periphery of the Askiz culture, so they may have existed alongside them, but I doubt that the Yeniseyans originated from Khakass lands. This region of the Yenisey had been inhabited by Siberian Turks since the 4th century CE, and it included almost all of Tuva republic. To the east of the Askiz culture existed the Kurykans and later the Khori-Tumed of the Kurymchin culture, which were the ancestors of the Yakuts.

Курумчинская культура в V-XIV вв. // Якутия. Историко-культурный атлас. Природа. История. Этнография. Современность. Дизайн-Информация-Картография. М., 2007. Карта С. 169 [in Russian]

This map is about Kurumchi archaelogical culture of Baykalia, IV-XIV centuries.

www.academia.edu

Объединение Монголии Чингис-ханом. 1185-1206 годы // Атлас Tartarica. Казань-Москва-Санкт-Петербург: Дизайн. Информация. Картография, 2006. Карта С. 259 [in Russian]

Объединение Монголии Чингис-ханом. 1185-1206 годы // Атлас Tartarica. Казань-Москва-Санкт-Петербург: Дизайн. Информация. Картография, 2006. Карта С. 259 [in Russian]

www.academia.edu

 

[Reimond77]

The rule of Mongolic or Khakassian polities over some land doesn't imply that this land was homogenous. According to Matthias Castren's "Trip to Siberia" Kett's oral tradition implies they came from the head of Yenisei river from highlands, which is located in Tuva. In order to move from Tuva to Angara-Yenisei Valley you need to pass through Minusinsk basin, although this an old oral tradition and their migration from there occurred in 9-13 centuries it is still something to consider. Also, assimilation is a thing, one of khakass tribes, Paigudug, originally were Baikott Yeniseyan people in Minusinsk basin, who were Turkified by 17 century, when they were already called "Baikot Tatars" by the Russians. Similarly, Arin and Yarin groups of Yeniseian people were assimilated into Khakass Kachin group (even stated on Wikipedia). What I am saying is that Yeniseyans should probably be slightly more present in the south of your current area and slightly less in the north and east.

But I believe that they migrated in the 13th century. The Ainu also completely captured southern Sakhalin by the end of the 13th century. But our game begins in the 14th century. There were no large migrations in the 17th century.

 

[Wildrake]

Lack of an archaeological culture in Tuva that can be linked to Yeniseyans does mean that they likely didn't exist there. The Arin lived in the northern periphery of the Askiz culture, so they may have existed alongside them, but I doubt that the Yeniseyans originated from Khakass lands. This region of the Yenisey had been inhabited by Siberian Turks since the 4th century CE, and it included almost all of Tuva republic. To the east of the Askiz culture existed the Kurykans and later the Khori-Tumed of the Kurymchin culture, which were the ancestors of the Yakuts.
View attachment 1245509
View attachment 1245510

Курумчинская культура в V-XIV вв. // Якутия. Историко-культурный атлас. Природа. История. Этнография. Современность. Дизайн-Информация-Картография. М., 2007. Карта С. 169 [in Russian]

This map is about Kurumchi archaelogical culture of Baykalia, IV-XIV centuries.

www.academia.edu

Объединение Монголии Чингис-ханом. 1185-1206 годы // Атлас Tartarica. Казань-Москва-Санкт-Петербург: Дизайн. Информация. Картография, 2006. Карта С. 259 [in Russian]

Объединение Монголии Чингис-ханом. 1185-1206 годы // Атлас Tartarica. Казань-Москва-Санкт-Петербург: Дизайн. Информация. Картография, 2006. Карта С. 259 [in Russian]

www.academia.edu

Archaeological culture and language in a lot of cases do not correspond 1 to 1. Russian archaeologist and historian Vasiliy Bartold suggests that Yenisei Kyrgyz from whom Khakass and Yakuts originate are Turkified population. Yeniseyas oral tradition also supports this which mentions that they were pushed northward by mountain people known as Kiliki (Kirghiz) I also disagree with the notion that there is no evidence for Kett presence in Khakassia and Tuva area. Those areas have more old Yeniseian toponymy than Kett's current area of habitation. Also, when Arin indeed mainly lived north of modern Khakass, Boikots lived right next to them on Tuba river, which is located east of Khakassia.

 

[Slime99]

Archaeological culture and language in a lot of cases do not correspond 1 to 1. Russian archaeologist and historian Vasiliy Bartold suggests that Yenisei Kyrgyz from whom Khakass and Yakuts originate are Turkified population. Yeniseyas oral tradition also supports this which mentions that they were pushed northward by mountain people known as Kiliki (Kirghiz) I also disagree with the notion that there is no evidence for Kett presence in Khakassia and Tuva area. Those areas have more old Yeniseian toponymy than Kett's current area of habitation. Also, when Arin indeed mainly lived north of modern Khakass, Boikots lived right next to them on Tuba river, which is located east of Khakassia.

If they have oral tradition of encounters with the Kirghiz pushing them north then that may date to before the start of the game with the expansion of the Kyrgyz khaganate in the 9th century. The area used to be non-Turkic, namely it used to be Scythian before the Turks arrived. To the west there was the Samoyedic Upper Ob culture which was assimilated by the Kipchak Srostkin culture. But these are 8th to 9th century events, not 14th century.

 

[zeruosi]

This map is very outdated, man. Very strongly.

I've made a shape change in 3 locations. I corrected the name for the Oroks and Oris, adding alternative names in parentheses. I expanded the Oris culture by adding small minorities to the southern part of Sakhalin, the Kuril Islands, and Kamchatka. I also added 6 more cultures and removed 1. A southern group of Nivkhs appeared on the continent, separate from the Nivkhs of Jilemi.

It sounds very unusual, especially about the removal of culture, so the text is definitely needed.
My computer won't even be able to run the game. I will play on YouTube and sometimes go to the forum to ask for something to add.

omg， Although I believe that higher granularity is better. But such a high granularity would make me feel at a loss.
(Once I had a plan to gather everyone's suggestions and make the whole world very refined. But now it seems that this may be wrong.)

 

[Wildrake]

If they have oral tradition of encounters with the Kirghiz pushing them north then that may date to before the start of the game with the expansion of the Kyrgyz khaganate in the 9th century. The area used to be non-Turkic, namely it used to be Scythian before the Turks arrived. To the west there was the Samoyedic Upper Ob culture which was assimilated by the Kipchak Srostkin culture. But these are 8th to 9th century events, not 14th century.

Unlikely that it was originally Scythian. Kett presence can be traced by river toponyms such as -tet, -ses, -set, -sas, -tes, -tat, -tas. River names with such names are present all over Khakasia, such as Aizas, Maizas, Kaltas, Senzas, Amzas, Balanzas, Taizas, Hamzas, Uzas, Azas, Pyzas. All of these are located around Tuva or Khakasia. Toponyms with tet are located more to the north of Khakasia.

 

[Slime99]

Unlikely that it was originally Scythian. Kett presence can be traced by river toponyms such as -tet, -ses, -set, -sas, -tes, -tat. River names with such names are present all over Khakasia, such as Aizas, Maizas, Kaltas, Senzas, Amzas, Balanzas, Taizas, Hamzas, Uzas, Azas. All of these are located around Tuva or Khakasia. Toponyms with tet are located more to the north of Khakasia.

It was Scythian. The Tashtyk culture lived in the Minusinsk basin before the arrival of the Turks and the creation of the Chaatas culture. Tashtyk culture descends from the Tagar culture which displaced the preceding Karasuk culture.

The Tashtyk culture is the post-Scythian Iron Age archaeological culture of the Minusinsk Basin which followed the Tagar culture 18. It is viewed as having had a nomadic pastoralist economy supplemented by hunting-gathering and small-scale agriculture. Cultural innovations and a slight admixture of East Asian craniological features on early Tashtyk skulls and funeral masks led to the idea of some mass migration from Central Asia which possibly took place at the turn of the Christian era 24–26. This East Asian craniological impact is now seen as considerably exaggerated for the early Tashtyk population 27 and requires further study. The interactions between local and various incoming human groups at that time are currently seen as a complex phenomenon, suggesting their co-existence in Southern Siberia during this historical period 28,29. Significant innovations documented in the burial rituals and grave goods of the early Tashtyk sites are still considered to be the result of migrations from Central Asia, likely from the areas adjacent to the Tarim Basin, but the question remains open 30.

First ancient DNA analysis of mummies from the post-Scythian Oglakhty cemetery in South Siberia

The Minusinsk Basin in Southern Siberia had unique conditions for the development of ancient societies, thanks to its geographical location, favorable climatic conditions, and relative isolation. Located at the northern periphery of the eastern Eurasian steppe, surrounded by the Altai-Sayan Mo...

www.researchsquare.com

Early nomads in the Eurasian steppes since the beginning of the 1st millennium BC played a key role in the formation of the cultural and genetic landscape of populations of a significant part of Eurasia, from Eastern Europe to Eastern Central Asia. Numerous archaeological cultures associated with early nomads have been discovered throughout the Eurasian steppe belt. The Tagar archaeological culture existed in the Minusinsk basin (Sayan Mountains, Southern Siberia, Russia) in the northeastern periphery of the Eurasian steppe belt from the 8th to 1st century BC during the pre-Scythian, Scythian, and Early Xiongnu-Sarmatian periods. In this study, we evaluated mtDNA diversity in the Tagar population based on representative series (N = 79) belonging to all chronological stages of the culture. The Tagar population had a mixed mtDNA pool dominated by Western Eurasian haplogroups and subgroups (H, HV6, HV*, I, K, T, U2e, U4, U5a, and U*) and, to a lesser degree, Eastern Eurasian haplogroups (A*, A8, C*, C5, D, G2a, and F1b). The Tagar population showed a similar mtDNA pool structure to those of other Iron Age populations representing the “Scythian World.” We observed particularly high similarity between the Tagar and Classic Scythians from the North Pontic region. Our results support the assumption that genetic components introduced by Bronze Age migrants from Western Eurasia contributed to the formation of the genetic composition of Scythian period populations in Southern Siberia. Another important component of the Tagar mtDNA pool was autochthonous East Eurasian lineages, some of which (A8 and C4a2a) are potential markers of the westward genetic influence of the eastern populations of the Scythian period. Our results suggest a genetic continuity (at least partial) between the Early, Middle, and Late Tagar populations.

Maternal genetic features of the Iron Age Tagar population from Southern Siberia (1st millennium BC)

Early nomads in the Eurasian steppes since the beginning of the 1st millennium BC played a key role in the formation of the cultural and genetic landscape of populations of a significant part of Eurasia, from Eastern Europe to Eastern Central Asia. Numerous archaeological cultures associated...

journals.plos.org

 

[Wildrake]

It was Scythian. The Tashtyk culture lived in the Minusinsk basin before the arrival of the Turks and the creation of the Chaatas culture. Tashtyk culture descends from the Tagar culture which displaced the preceding Karasuk culture.
View attachment 1245528
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Ironically, the Yeniseian oral tradition also mentions that before Kiliki they were invaded by Tystad (recorded by Anuchin), who many researchers connect with Indo-Iranian groups. Toponyms still do confirm the significant presence of Yeniseyan languages around Khakasia, especially in mountainous areas, you can google all toponyms I listed for reference. It is possible that the population of area was mixed, Scythian groups frequently ruled over areas that were definitely Finno-Ugric or Turkic or Mongolic. Dunno if it makes sense to argue further considering that topic is fairly unclear.

 

[Slime99]

Ironically, the Yeniseian oral tradition also mentions that before Kiliki they were invaded by Tystad (recorded by Anuchin), who many researchers connect with Indo-Iranian groups. Toponyms still do confirm the significant present of Yeniseyan languages around Khakasia, especially in mountainous areas, you can google all toponyms I listed for reference.

Still there's no evidence of Yeniseyans inhabiting, much less being a significant population in Tuva or anything south of the Minusinsk basin during the medieval period. I say their historic range is a good base line for the 14th century.