Tinto Maps #23 - 18th of October 2024 - China

[Roger Corominas]

Location count/density isnt that bad honestly for a first draft, could definitely be higher but it doesent seem as worse as India's so thats nice to see. secondly are the Penghu Islands a separate location or are they part of that awkwardly large Lloa location that should probably be split into 5 View attachment 1203687

Those islands indeed belong to Lloa.

 

[Roger Corominas]

If you're gonna leave China, Korea, and Vietnam Buddhist, you'd better make Japan Buddhist too. Shinto wasn't a separate religion until late 19th century when it was separated for political reasons, and even after that I wouldn't say its really a religion. The whole naming situation is a bit of a mess but personally I would go with "Three Teachings" as its a lot clearer than saying Mahayana and less China specific by using English.

We will talk about Shinto next week.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Some cultural questions:
1) what is the light blue minority inside khampa?
2) and the oranga one inside yi?
3) the pink one in lanyin, near zhongyuan?
4) how is the jewish culture called?

And about IOs, is there a Nestorian Patriarcate IO too as there are the Orthodox and Miaphysites ones?

1. Pumi
2. Huí
3. Mi-Niah
4. Qāyfengi
5. There isn't one at start due to not being any country with its main religion Nestorian, but it can have patriarcates, yes.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Yeah im quite conflicted because the actual size of Macau is far too small for it to be stimulated in the game but otoh it has immense historical value and was also portrayed in EU4 (vastly inflated portrayed size compared to its actual size). How will you simulate this @Roger Corominas

We decided against it due to it being too small and having other mechanics that can represent the foreign presence without the need of a location. But as always, everything is open for review.

 

[Roger Corominas]

What exactly is the reason why you guys are folding native faiths into other faiths with mechanics (Shinto/Buddhism, Korean Shamanism/Buddhism) rather than making them distinct faiths and dividing the pops accordingly? I'm sure you have one, just asking!

Otherwise, why is there no Han culture? It's fairly common knowledge in East Asia that the Han Chinese identity has been relatively persistent for at least the last thousand years; Despite linguistic differences, people who speak Jinyu and people who speak Mandarin would both think of themselves as Han Chinese.

I've got no other complaints or questions, just curious as to these two things. And I'll just throw this in for what it's worth, I'd really love some information specifically on Steppe Nomads and whether or not the intensely complicated nature of their societies and social hierarchies will be represented as opposed to the "free range anarchic barbarians" trope.

It is mechanically not possible for pops and countries to have more than one religion, that is why we have to fold them together in those cases.
Considering the whole Han grouping, we have other ways of representing their affinities, and a split among the different cultures is also better in terms of gameplay.

 

[Roger Corominas]

good to see hong kong, is macau too small to get a location ?

Yes, unfortunately it is quite small, and there are other mechanics that allow us to express its function. But we may review that.

 

[Roger Corominas]

@Roger Corominas what will be the vassal relationship between Yuan China and the Kingdom of Korea full vassal or tributary ?

Vassal.

 

[Roger Corominas]

I think so.The Paradox can never distinguish Mahayana,Confucianiam and other folk religion like ancestor worship in Ancient China.Every time Paradox make all of chinese be converted to Mahayana at first.That is completely unreasonable!!!!

As I said, the religion will cover all of them at the same time, we just need to find a suitable name for it.

 

[Roger Corominas]

To add as a suggestion for religions

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/why-china-should-not-be-buddhist.1702751/

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/about-chinese-folk-beliefs.1709618/

Two great treads where people discussed the systems.

I've already had these two bookmarked for a while XD

 

[Roger Corominas]

How about simply naming it "Three teachings" in english? That way it should be fine for Korea and Vietnam as well

Alternatively "East asian syncrethism" sounds more apropriate than "Chinese buddism" if a bit orthopedic

We are studying all possible options, but we'd like to avoid something that is too verbose.

 

[Roger Corominas]

On that note, how would playing as the red turbans work? Would you have to select Yuan or are they a tag from start (perhaps your could select the White Lotus society which could be a buildings based country and then tag switch)

You have to start as Yuan.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Then couldn't you make some of the rivers sea tiles? (The mouth of the Guadalquivir already works like that so Sevilla can be a port) You could simply add crossings between the provinces. I feel like that would be a better representation.

We studied several options to have them navigable, but it caused many other issues, so it won't be feasible.

 

[Roger Corominas]

I have to say it's quite odd how small the Rma/Qiangic culture is, especially given that the Tangut Xia dynasty was only 100 years ago. Additionally, you've got multiple small states - in particular Gyelrong and Ngapa - which were ruled by and inhabited with speakers of Qiangic languages, primarily rGyalrong, but are instead represented as Amdo Tibetans. I'd see about replacing a big chunk of Amdoan with a new Gylarong culture, or maybe expanding Rma as Qiangic.

There's more presence of Rma in other locations, but it's not visible due to not being enough for it to appear as stripes.

 

[Roger Corominas]

As someone already mentioned it, what about naming that branch of Buddhism Zen Buddhism? It's known term, it basically describes school of Chinese Buddhism, and it's not too Chinese to make "an identity problem" for believers in Korea, Vietnam or Japan.

That doesn't work because Zen is just the Japanese pronunciation of Chán, which is just one of the schools of Buddhism.

 

[Roger Corominas]

"Formosan" is from Portuguese... But anyway it will be a better name than Yuanzhumin in Vic3.

Yes, but all the names for them were exonyms, so we ended up going for the earliest one that wasn't offensive.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Is it ok if I talk about inaccuracies regarding the population of Dai Viet in this thread or should I wait until the proper Tinto Maps devoted to all of South East Asia? Because according to one current academic estimate, the population of the entirety of Dai Viet in this period can't have been any lower than 3 million (according to footnote in Victor Lieberman's "Strange Parallels: Southeast Asia in Global Context", page 368). That one estimate might or might not be correct, but I can't see it be any less than 2 million in reality, and certainly not the 847k as shown in the population map!View attachment 1203736`

South East Asia will be talked about in a different Tinto Maps.

 

[Roger Corominas]

@Roger Corominas are there any situations or I.O. in the region beside the red turban rebellion amd the middle kingdom atm?

Not that we can talk about right now.

 

[Roger Corominas]

View attachment 1203784View attachment 1203785

Comparison of Qing Administrative Borders and Areas

I think Gansu, Shanxi and Beizhili are too far into Mongolia

And I would prefer all area borders to be in line with Qing Administrative Borders

We have followed more Yuan/Ming administration

 

[Roger Corominas]

There are some references about agricultural areas in China because its seems not be done at all:

North China Plain (the largest plain in China and the most important grain producing area for a long time), Guanzhong Plain and Sichuan Basin (relatively small, but still very important, Guanzhong Plain has long been the seat of China's capital in the Tang Dynasty and before; Sichuan Basin is famous for Dujiangyan Irrigation Project, a water conservancy facility that proves the richness of Sichuan Basin), the Yangtze River coastal plain (including the middle reaches and downstream areas, which is one of the richest areas, especially the Jiangnan area in the lower reaches of the Yangtze River)

View attachment 1203781
Here's a rough map of farmland, with red circles, and blue circles are the core cities

I know this is a surprising suggestion about such a huge farmland area, but considering that China has been a huge empire known for agriculture since ancient times and is renowned for various water conservancy facilities. These regions have long agricultural traditions and vast farmland areas, especially in the core areas.

We will review the farmlands. As I said, the criteria was not well established yet when we did this area.

 

[Aldaron]

My suggestions about cultures as a Chinese Muslim.
1. I think the Xinan culture should split into Hubei, Sichuan (or Bashu) and Yungui. Yungui represents Han in Yunnan and Guizhou (here already exits Han migrants in Yuan dynasty). And If there exist a Hubei culture, Jianghuai culture do not need the tail to the west.
2. The Dongbei culture should split into Youyan and Dongbei. Youyan culture is around Beijing and should have some poplation in nowadays Chengde（承德） and Chifeng（赤峰）. Place near Jinzhou（锦州） is Dongbei culture and this culture should extend to nowadays Liaodong peninsula, as far as Yalu river. If you read Laoqida（老乞大）, you can see in Liaodong peninsula Han'er language（汉儿言语）is widely used.
3. Zhongyuan culture should split into Zhongyuan and Qinlong（秦陇）. The latter one represents Han in Shaanxi and Gansu, and can be merged with Lanyin. Han in Hexi corridor can have a seperate culture, though.
4. I do not think there must exist a seperate Hui culture. There should exist Muslim population in every Chinese culture except Hakka, Huizhou and Gan. There should also have some Muslim population in Bai culture. I can offer many resources about Muslim distributions for you.
5. There should have a seperate Baima（白马, or Di/氐） culture from Amdowa.
6. Miao and Mien culture in nowadays China-Vietnam border is strange. They come here hundred years later.
7. I do not know whether the green culture near nowadays Guogan（Kokang，果敢）is Kokang or not. Kokang is Yungui culture. Enough
8. Jurchen culture should not extend into Liaoxi area especially in steppe areas like nowadays Fuxin（阜新）, Chaoyang（朝阳） and Chifeng（赤峰）.
9. Tangut culture should extend into nowadays Ningxia plain but now not include Guyuan (which was control by Song), and there should have some Muslim population in Tangut culture and maybe Amdowa culture. They are the ancestors of many Hui people in today's China.
10. Small Tumed Mongol could be Muslim.

Would you please copy our map and draw your suggestions on it? Also, if you could provide sources and what dates they refer to would be great.

I invite any other forum user to use the same system as it would be easier to implement those suggestions.

The map created by Paradox is correct, referring to the Chinese Historical Atlas

We indeed used this Atlas as reference to draw this area.

Hm, main culture I can think of that might be missing is She. Did you guys decide that was too granular?

She people are in the map.