Tinto Maps #23 - 18th of October 2024 - China

[Mef]

Very good work in my opinion!

One thing that bothers me is that I don't think there is any reason for Beijing to be farmland. It became importantly basically because it was the largest city close to the nomad frontier. It was dependent on the Grand Canal to sustain its population.

Yes, I just put farmland there because of how much Beijing would be developed due to its importance, but it doesn't have better farmland per se, so it could just be grassland like the surrounding locations.

 

[Pescavelho]

Why are the Mongols divided between "Mongolian" and "Tümed"? I'm pretty sure dividing between Inner and Outer Mongols is a bit arbitrary, since those divisions come from the time of the Qing conquests. If you wanna have a division, why not rename "Mongolian" to "Eastern Mongol" and then expand Tümed to "Southern Mongol" (Oirats are "Western" and Buryats are "Northern")?
While we're talking about culture, the name "Hâk-kâ" looks a bit out of place lol, I get that Pha̍k-fa-sṳ has official status, but I'd still go with Hagfa Pinyim which should stick out like a sore thumb less. The only thing that Pha̍k-fa-sṳ does better is the tones, you could just mishmash the two if you really needed.

 

[zeruosi]

Alright, since nobody has made a comprehensive suggestion for vegetation yet, I tried my hand at it.
Some notes:

• Sources are: soil suitability for farming dataset that I've been using in all these map threads, modern tree cover and geography, earlier feedback regarding farmlands in this thread such as luo's maps
• There must be some sort of camera tilt in the game, as it was impossible for me to stitch all the zoomed in location maps together properly, so there are some inconsistencies in some spots
• I cut off Hainan in this map
• I didn't separate forest and jungle, as I'm not sure about the criteria
• I made the North China Plain mostly grassland, I'm not sure if there are any places that specifically deserve farmland there. In modern maps, the best farmland is along the Yellow River, but during the game's timeframe it didn't follow the same path as today.
• Some of the farmland in the East doesn't actually exist at the time, due to changes to the coastline that will probably be reflected in this review

View attachment 1210038

Thank you for your work. Later, I will add suitable farmland based on historical, population data, and geographical climate conditions

 

[zeruosi]

Alright, since nobody has made a comprehensive suggestion for vegetation yet, I tried my hand at it.
Some notes:

• Sources are: soil suitability for farming dataset that I've been using in all these map threads, modern tree cover and geography, earlier feedback regarding farmlands in this thread such as luo's maps
• There must be some sort of camera tilt in the game, as it was impossible for me to stitch all the zoomed in location maps together properly, so there are some inconsistencies in some spots
• I cut off Hainan in this map
• I didn't separate forest and jungle, as I'm not sure about the criteria
• I made the North China Plain mostly grassland, I'm not sure if there are any places that specifically deserve farmland there. In modern maps, the best farmland is along the Yellow River, but during the game's timeframe it didn't follow the same path as today.
• Some of the farmland in the East doesn't actually exist at the time, due to changes to the coastline that will probably be reflected in this review

View attachment 1210038

I made some adjustments. Firstly, the Guanzhong Plain was already barren due to long-term cultivation and land degradation at that time, so it should not be farmland. At this time, farmland had already been transferred to the North China region., There is a farmland in the central part of Shandong Province, which is the Jiaolai Plain. It is irrigated by many short and dense rivers and is the most fertile area in Shandong Province. At this time, almost all of the middle and lower reaches of the Yangtze River are farmland. In Chinese historical records, “苏杭熟天下足”it is recorded that the Su and Hang regions became the main food producing areas, “湖广熟天下足”and later it became the Hu and Guang regions. This indicates that Jiangnan has replaced North China as the main grain producing area, while Hebei was washed away by the Yellow River due to the Three Easy Returns of the Song Dynasty, resulting in severe salinization. Meanwhile, the Henan and Jiangsu regions gradually declined due to the Yellow River taking over the Huai River and the instability of the Yellow River in the late Yuan Dynasty. So whether it is farmland at this time remains to be discussed.

 

[Mef]

I made some adjustments. Firstly, the Guanzhong Plain was already barren due to long-term cultivation and land degradation at that time, so it should not be farmland. At this time, farmland had already been transferred to the North China region., There is a farmland in the central part of Shandong Province, which is the Jiaolai Plain. It is irrigated by many short and dense rivers and is the most fertile area in Shandong Province. At this time, almost all of the middle and lower reaches of the Yangtze River are farmland. In Chinese historical records, “苏杭熟天下足”it is recorded that the Su and Hang regions became the main food producing areas, “湖广熟天下足”and later it became the Hu and Guang regions. This indicates that Jiangnan has replaced North China as the main grain producing area, while Hebei was washed away by the Yellow River due to the Three Easy Returns of the Song Dynasty, resulting in severe salinization. Meanwhile, the Henan and Jiangsu regions gradually declined due to the Yellow River taking over the Huai River and the instability of the Yellow River in the late Yuan Dynasty. So whether it is farmland at this time remains to be discussed.

I think we have a different definition for what counts as farmland in the game, because you basically just painted most farmed land as farmland, instead of just the most fertile parts.
I'm wondering how modern agriculture changed productivity in North China. Surely the grain grown there would benefit more from things like mechanization than rice in the south? Was it still as productive as southern rice fields back in this time period?

I'm skeptical about Guanzhong not being farmland, because even today it's recognized as having very good soil on all soil maps. Yes, erosion is a problem in the Loess Plateau, but if that fertile soil is still there today, I don't see how the region can be described as barren in the time period.
In the map that luo posted, it's also fertile.

 

[zeruosi]

I think we have a different definition for what counts as farmland in the game, because you basically just painted most farmed land as farmland, instead of just the most fertile parts.
I'm wondering how modern agriculture changed productivity in North China. Surely the grain grown there would benefit more from things like mechanization than rice in the south? Was it still as productive as southern rice fields back in this time period?

I'm skeptical about Guanzhong not being farmland, because even today it's recognized as having very good soil on all soil maps. Yes, erosion is a problem in the Loess Plateau, but if that fertile soil is still there today, I don't see how the region can be described as barren in the time period.
In the map that luo posted, it's also fertile.

One issue here is that the improvements brought about by modern fertilizer agriculture and excellent water conservancy irrigation can be found in many Chinese histories, where the records of the area near Chang'an are too poor. This led to the capital of the Song Dynasty moving eastward from Chang'an, Luoyang, to Kaifeng (Bianjing). Later, due to the Three Yi Rivers（三易回河：自永静以北居民所存三四，自沧州以北所存一二，其他郡大率类此。千里萧条间无人烟!去年虽丰无人耕种,所收苖稼十不一二!河北朝廷根本,密迩强敌.居民流散仓廪空虚,城郭不修甲兵不利,万一有警何以为计 ! 瀛、沧河决,沧州城不没者三版,民死者百余万） and the Yellow River's seizure of the Huai River（黄河夺淮）, the decline of North China led to the shift of China's economic center to Jiangnan（朝廷在故都时,实仰东南财赋,而吴中又为东南根抵。语曰“苏常熟,天下足”）. I admit that I did not think clearly when making simple drawings, so I defined North China as something that needs further discussion in my written description

 

[zeruosi]

One issue here is that the improvements brought about by modern fertilizer agriculture and excellent water conservancy irrigation can be found in many Chinese histories, where the records of the area near Chang'an are too poor. This led to the capital of the Song Dynasty moving eastward from Chang'an, Luoyang, to Kaifeng (Bianjing). Later, due to the Three Yi Rivers（三易回河：自永静以北居民所存三四，自沧州以北所存一二，其他郡大率类此。千里萧条间无人烟!去年虽丰无人耕种,所收苖稼十不一二!河北朝廷根本,密迩强敌.居民流散仓廪空虚,城郭不修甲兵不利,万一有警何以为计 ! 瀛、沧河决,沧州城不没者三版,民死者百余万） and the Yellow River's seizure of the Huai River（黄河夺淮）, the decline of North China led to the shift of China's economic center to Jiangnan（朝廷在故都时,实仰东南财赋,而吴中又为东南根抵。语曰“苏常熟,天下足”）. I admit that I did not think clearly when making simple drawings, so I defined North China as something that needs further discussion in my written description

自永静以北居民所存三四，自沧州以北所存一二，其他郡大率类此。千里萧条间无人烟!去年虽丰无人耕种,所收苖稼十不一二!河北朝廷根本,密迩强敌.居民流散仓廪空虚,城郭不修甲兵不利,万一有警何以为计 !：There are three or four residents north of Yongjing, one or two residents north of Cangzhou, and most other counties are similar. There is no smoke in the thousands of miles of depression! Last year, although there was no one to cultivate the crops, the amount of millet harvested was not significant! The Hebei court is fundamentally close to strong enemies Residents are scattered, granaries are empty, and if the city walls are not repaired, it will be disadvantageous to have soldiers. What if there are police! Ying, Cang River Decision, Cangzhou City is not without three versions, with over a million civilian deaths
瀛、沧河决,沧州城不没者三版,民死者百余万：Ying, Cang River, and Cangzhou City are all three versions, with over a million civilian deaths
朝廷在故都时,实仰东南财赋,而吴中又为东南根抵。语曰“苏常熟,天下足”：When the imperial court was in its former capital, it paid tribute to the wealth of the southeast, and Wuzhong was the root of the southeast. The saying goes, 'Su Changshu is the foot of the world.'

Areas submerged by the Yellow River diversion
明朝李釜源所撰写的《地图综要》内卷中就提到：“楚故泽国，耕稔甚饶。一岁再获柴桑，吴越多仰给焉。谚曰‘湖广熟，天下足。’”In the inner volume of "Comprehensive Map Essentials" written by Li Qiyuan in the Ming Dynasty, it is mentioned that "Chu was once a land of great cultivation. At the age of one, he obtained firewood and mulberry trees, and the Wu and Yue tribes offered them to him. As the saying goes, 'When the lake is wide and ripe, the world is full.'

 

[Mef]

自永静以北居民所存三四，自沧州以北所存一二，其他郡大率类此。千里萧条间无人烟!去年虽丰无人耕种,所收苖稼十不一二!河北朝廷根本,密迩强敌.居民流散仓廪空虚,城郭不修甲兵不利,万一有警何以为计 !：There are three or four residents north of Yongjing, one or two residents north of Cangzhou, and most other counties are similar. There is no smoke in the thousands of miles of depression! Last year, although there was no one to cultivate the crops, the amount of millet harvested was not significant! The Hebei court is fundamentally close to strong enemies Residents are scattered, granaries are empty, and if the city walls are not repaired, it will be disadvantageous to have soldiers. What if there are police! Ying, Cang River Decision, Cangzhou City is not without three versions, with over a million civilian deaths
瀛、沧河决,沧州城不没者三版,民死者百余万：Ying, Cang River, and Cangzhou City are all three versions, with over a million civilian deaths
朝廷在故都时,实仰东南财赋,而吴中又为东南根抵。语曰“苏常熟,天下足”：When the imperial court was in its former capital, it paid tribute to the wealth of the southeast, and Wuzhong was the root of the southeast. The saying goes, 'Su Changshu is the foot of the world.'
View attachment 1210196Areas submerged by the Yellow River diversion

I have to say, I don't understand most of this post, but I did just remember that I watched this video about Xuzhou/Pengcheng a while back which also deals with the shift of the Lower Yellow River and how it negatively affected the region.
So I think it would make sense not to extend the farmland too much, as much of the Central Plain was in decline at this point.

One issue here is that the improvements brought about by modern fertilizer agriculture and excellent water conservancy irrigation can be found in many Chinese histories, where the records of the area near Chang'an are too poor. This led to the capital of the Song Dynasty moving eastward from Chang'an, Luoyang, to Kaifeng (Bianjing).

Did the capital move because of local agricultural output or did they simply want to be closer to the core of China?

In any case, I made some adjustments to my map above.

 

[zeruosi]

Did the capital move because of local agricultural output or did they simply want to be closer to the core of China?

Due to the decline of agriculture, in East Asia, for every one degree Celsius increase in temperature, the January zero temperature isotherm and the 800 millimeter precipitation line will advance northward by 300 kilometers. In the late Tang Dynasty, due to the climate turning dry and cold, the monsoon in East Asia became weaker, which led to a decrease in rainfall and accumulated temperature in the Guanzhong Plain, and the entire Guanzhong Plain and Loess Plateau region became unsuitable for agriculture.
In addition, long-term reclamation has led to vegetation degradation and soil erosion (a large number of Chinese history books show that the forests on the Loess Plateau and the Qinling Mountains are nearly disappearing at this time), long-term irrigation systems have also led to serious salinization in the Guanzhong Plain, and millennium urbanization has also led to the inability to drink salt brine in the well water. This place is no longer suitable as the capital in the whole PC time point, and its population density and economic level are far lower than those of provinces on the North China Plain, not to mention compared with those in Jiangnan.

The relationship curve between temperature and Chinese dynasties

Changes in vegetation coverage on the Loess Plateau

I have to say, I don't understand most of this post, but I did just remember that I watched this video about Xuzhou/Pengcheng a while back which also deals with the shift of the Lower Yellow River and how it negatively affected the region.

So I think it would make sense not to extend the farmland too much, as much of the Central Plain was in decline at this point.

Due to the firewall issue in China, I am unable to watch this video.
The following English text is a mechanical translation of the previous Chinese text.
As it is in classical Chinese, the recognition of mechanical translation may result in serious errors.
These historical records indicate that the diversion of the Yellow River resulted in the deaths of a large number of civilians and that the dynasty had no one available for conscription and taxation in the Yellow River Basin.

 

[Atromb]

I think we have a different definition for what counts as farmland in the game, because you basically just painted most farmed land as farmland, instead of just the most fertile parts.
I'm wondering how modern agriculture changed productivity in North China. Surely the grain grown there would benefit more from things like mechanization than rice in the south? Was it still as productive as southern rice fields back in this time period?

I'm skeptical about Guanzhong not being farmland, because even today it's recognized as having very good soil on all soil maps. Yes, erosion is a problem in the Loess Plateau, but if that fertile soil is still there today, I don't see how the region can be described as barren in the time period.
In the map that luo posted, it's also fertile.

To be fair, based on other regions, farmlands doesn't seem limited to only the best soils, rather it also seems to represent areas that were almost entirely cultivated instead of used for pastures or areas that were not yet fully developed.
I could be mistaken but the farmland-grassland difference seems to be one of land usage/development. With grasslands representing either pastures or not yet fully agriculturaly developed areas.

 

[Mef]

To be fair, based on other regions, farmlands doesn't seem limited to only the best soils, rather it also seems to represent areas that were almost entirely cultivated instead of used for pastures or areas that were not yet fully developed.
I could be mistaken but the farmland-grassland difference seems to be one of land usage/development. With grasslands representing either pastures or not yet fully agriculturaly developed areas.

We did discuss this a lot in early Tinto Maps threads and in the reviews we've seen completed so far, it does look like farmland mostly corresponds to how good the land is for farming. I agree that it shouldn't be the only criterium, otherwise the Taihu area, which has always been super agriculturally productive, shouldn't get farmland (it actually doesn't have great soils).
But it turns out that in almost all cases, land that was cultivated intensively is also very suited for agriculture (no big surprise), so the challenge is mostly how to deal with land that is very well suited, but wasn't really developed yet at the start of the game.
Grassland definitely represents cropland too, it's sparse vegetation that can basically only be used as pasture land.

I just think it's too much to give basically the entire Plain farmland, especially since the Lower Yellow River caused this region's wealth to decline significantly.

 

[zeruosi]

I'm wondering how modern agriculture changed productivity in North China. Surely the grain grown there would benefit more from things like mechanization than rice in the south? Was it still as productive as southern rice fields back in this time period?

Regarding agricultural crops in North China, in the mid Tang Dynasty, with the advancement of grain preservation technology, rice replaced millet as the main grain crop in China. As a result, the planting area of millet decreased significantly. At the same time, due to the closer connection between the Tang Dynasty and Central Asia, the dietary habits of Central Asia merged with those of North China, and noodles rapidly expanded to become the main grain in the north.
Afterwards, the prolonged weakness of the Northern Song Dynasty and the relative stability of the Southern Song Dynasty led to the long-term control of non Han regimes in the north. Their living habits were more inclined towards nomads, so the agricultural crops in the north were mainly wheat and sorghum, and millet became a niche grain crop.
Afterwards, after the fall of the Qing Dynasty, China experienced long-term internal turmoil and poverty among the people. The crops in North China and Northeast China were replaced by American crops, with corn, potatoes, and sweet potatoes becoming the most important crops in North China. It was not until 1980 that traditional crops gradually returned to become the mainstream planting industry in the north.
The plains of North China and Northeast China have a huge area, mainly consisting of dry land agriculture. Although the advantages brought by mechanized production under small-scale farming conditions cannot be compared to agriculture in the United States or Ukraine, they are much stronger than paddy fields in the south.

 

[Mef]

Regarding agricultural crops in North China, in the mid Tang Dynasty, with the advancement of grain preservation technology, rice replaced millet as the main grain crop in China. As a result, the planting area of millet decreased significantly. At the same time, due to the closer connection between the Tang Dynasty and Central Asia, the dietary habits of Central Asia merged with those of North China, and noodles rapidly expanded to become the main grain in the north.
Afterwards, the prolonged weakness of the Northern Song Dynasty and the relative stability of the Southern Song Dynasty led to the long-term control of non Han regimes in the north. Their living habits were more inclined towards nomads, so the agricultural crops in the north were mainly wheat and sorghum, and millet became a niche grain crop.
Afterwards, after the fall of the Qing Dynasty, China experienced long-term internal turmoil and poverty among the people. The crops in North China and Northeast China were replaced by American crops, with corn, potatoes, and sweet potatoes becoming the most important crops in North China. It was not until 1980 that traditional crops gradually returned to become the mainstream planting industry in the north.
The plains of North China and Northeast China have a huge area, mainly consisting of dry land agriculture. Although the advantages brought by mechanized production under small-scale farming conditions cannot be compared to agriculture in the United States or Ukraine, they are much stronger than paddy fields in the south.

I'm aware of what crops are grown in the North, which is why I'm suggesting that North China benefitted more from modern mechanized agriculture than the rice-growing South did. Which means that in this game's time period, the South would have an advantage in productivity, compared to modern statistics.

This paper on page180 suggests the following estimated distribution of agricultural output in 1400:

So it appears like the North, while having a lot of agricultural land area, was significantly less productive, which is not a surprise, since rice is extremely productive compared to how much land it uses. Interestingly, it places even Anhui and Jiangsu, affected by the Lower Yellow River at this time, at just below average, but they do get better later on.
Clearly the low amount of arable land in the deep south also means that the land that is used for growing rice is cultivated very intensively, similar to Japan.

 

[zeruosi]

I'm aware of what crops are grown in the North, which is why I'm suggesting that North China benefitted more from modern mechanized agriculture than the rice-growing South did. Which means that in this game's time period, the South would have an advantage in productivity, compared to modern statistics.

This paper on page180 suggests the following estimated distribution of agricultural output in 1400:
View attachment 1210391
So it appears like the North, while having a lot of agricultural land area, was significantly less productive, which is not a surprise, since rice is extremely productive compared to how much land it uses. Interestingly, it places even Anhui and Jiangsu, affected by the Lower Yellow River at this time, at just below average, but they do get better later on.
Clearly the low amount of arable land in the deep south also means that the land that is used for growing rice is cultivated very intensively, similar to Japan.

It seems that my translator caused me to misunderstand. I understood it as, are you asking if the north benefits more than the south.
Compared to rice, the yield of wheat is indeed lower. We can find that the province with the largest grain output before the disaster in the north was Shandong Province. Because of the barrier of Mount Taishan, Shandong was relatively less affected by the Yellow River. Anhui and Jiangsu are not the most severely affected areas, as the Huai River channel accommodates enough Yellow River water, while Henan is the most severely affected area. Additionally, Anhui and Jiangsu actually have a portion of the Yangtze River basin, which leads to higher average productivity levels.

 

[Mef]

It seems that my translator caused me to misunderstand. I understood it as, are you asking if the north benefits more than the south.
Compared to rice, the yield of wheat is indeed lower. We can find that the province with the largest grain output before the disaster in the north was Shandong Province. Because of the barrier of Mount Taishan, Shandong was relatively less affected by the Yellow River. Anhui and Jiangsu are not the most severely affected areas, as the Huai River channel accommodates enough Yellow River water, while Henan is the most severely affected area. Additionally, Anhui and Jiangsu actually have a portion of the Yangtze River basin, which leads to higher average productivity levels.

Yes, I'm assuming that the northern parts of Anhui and Jiangsu were negatively affected, together with Henan, while the southern parts along the Yangtze were fine. And Shandong was indeed the most productive part of the North. Unfortunate that these statistics don't include Liaoning, I'm curious if its good soils mattered in this time period, or if it wasn't really developed at all yet. Considering there was a wall built around the farmland to keep the Manchus out (it didn't work), it does sound like it had developed farmland.

I updated my map to try and portray the "inefficient agriculture in a large area in the north vs. concentrated efficient agriculture in the south" split better.

 

[zeruosi]

Yes, I'm assuming that the northern parts of Anhui and Jiangsu were negatively affected, together with Henan, while the southern parts along the Yangtze were fine. And Shandong was indeed the most productive part of the North. Unfortunate that these statistics don't include Liaoning, I'm curious if its good soils mattered in this time period, or if it wasn't really developed at all yet. Considering there was a wall built around the farmland to keep the Manchus out (it didn't work), it does sound like it had developed farmland.

I updated my map to try and portray the "inefficient agriculture in a large area in the north vs. concentrated efficient agriculture in the south" split better.

Liaoning has indeed achieved a certain degree of development, but due to the huge marshland in Liaoze (the middle reaches of the Liao River), the development of Liaoning is relatively difficult, and only a part of the area east of the Liao River has been developed. In addition, due to the early start of the game, I suggest that the Xingkai Lake is also a farmland. This is the capital of the Jin“金” Dynasty and its temporary successor, Dongxia“东夏/east xia”. Later, the urban area here was burned down by the Yuan Dynasty. However, due to the previous high level of development, this area has not been completely taken over by nature, and other developed areas (such as the coast of the Sea of Japan, and some cities in the middle of the the Changbai Mountains) have been swallowed up by nature

 

[Mef]

Liaoning has indeed achieved a certain degree of development, but due to the huge marshland in Liaoze (the middle reaches of the Liao River), the development of Liaoning is relatively difficult, and only a part of the area east of the Liao River has been developed. In addition, due to the early start of the game, I suggest that the Xingkai Lake is also a farmland. This is the capital of the Jin“金” Dynasty and its temporary successor, Dongxia“东夏/east xia”. Later, the urban area here was burned down by the Yuan Dynasty. However, due to the previous high level of development, this area has not been completely taken over by nature, and other developed areas (such as the coast of the Sea of Japan, and some cities in the middle of the the Changbai Mountains) have been swallowed up by nature

Well, that is for the Manchuria thread. Liaoning seems to be kind of sandwiched between that thread and this China thread (I guess that's historically correct) so I'm not sure which thread feedback for it is supposed to go in.

 

[zeruosi]

Well, that is for the Manchuria thread. Liaoning seems to be kind of sandwiched between that thread and this China thread (I guess that's historically correct) so I'm not sure which thread feedback for it is supposed to go in.

Liaoning should be the thread of China's region, and there is no doubt that Liaoning has been a province of China for over three thousand years. Considering the more primitive period, Liaoning, as one of the origins of Chinese culture, has been a part of China for over five thousand years. It is confusing that Liaoning is considered Manchuria rather than China, as only the Qing Dynasty and modern Japan turned Liaoning into Manchuria.
The Qing Dynasty emerged because Liaoning was a key region for their rise, while Japan was purely influenced by colonialism.
But the Qing emperors also believed that Liaoning was a region inhabited by the Han people, and they referred to Liaoning as the 18 provinces of Han territory（汉地十八省）, meaning the 18 provinces where the Han people lived
I saw a new map and it's very good.
edit:It's hard to imagine that you will know the Great Wall in Liaoning. Many Chinese people do not know that Liaoning has the Great Wall of the Ming Dynasty

 

[Mef]

I also tried to make a development map.

• It's mostly based on my vegetation map and what we talked in the posts above (like the North China Plain having declined and not enjoying the highest development anymore in this time period), also the big cities stand out of course.
• I chose the colors so differences would be visible within China, not to match the world-wide colors from the posted development map, so overall the development level would be higher than the colors in the map suggest.
• I didn't do Taiwan, not sure if there are any developed areas on it at this time, also it's annoying that Liaoning is cut off, because the wall there is a good border to draw for development.
• In the OP it's mentioned that there shouldn't be a sharp drop-off to nomadic lands, but I kind of disagree with that. In the north, there is the 400mm precipitation line above which settled agriculture isn't really done anymore. So there would be a clear difference in land development between agricultural society south of that and nomadic society north of that. That's also where walls are built to discourage the nomads from invading.
• I suggest watching this great introduction to Chinese geography and how it shaped history, I think it's really interesting and informative.

Also with the experience from making my map, I would make the following suggestions for adding more location density:

• Liaoning, this was a developed region, clearly differentiated from Manchuria!
• Zhejiang, the hilly terrain could use more resolution and it was a highly populated and developed region.
• Around Poyang Lake, an important city like Jingdezhen (Fuliang county on this map) is depicted as a big hill location, maybe it could be split into its own city location? Nanchang and surrounding locations are also very big. There was a lot of population concentrated here.
• Hanzhong also seems to be missing as a location? This was an important city located on mountain passes and on the Han river, of course.
• As I mentioned in an earlier post, Foshan in Guangdong should definitely be added, it was a top 5 industrial city just like Jingdezhen.

 

[Linbot#6018]

Impassable Zones Proposal:

Yellow are existing zones, red are my proposed zones. Black are proposals to delete existing zones. Lakes are marked in blue.

This is based on SulphurAeon's terrain map, and an atlas of China in 1913. Of course, this is a long time after the start date, but at this time, most of China was barely affected by industrialisation, so this map should probably give a good idea of the roadways and routes that existed in Ancient China.

https://collections.lib.uwm.edu/digital/collection/agdm/id/27761/rec/2

In particular, from studying military campaigns in the 17th century, I can relate that the impassable regions depicted on the borders between Jiangxi, Fujian, Zhejiang, and Guangdong reflect the flow of military campaigns in the Ming-Qing wars and the Revolt of the Three Feudatories. The warlord Geng Jingzhong invaded Jiangxi from Fujian in two routes, one in the north into Guangxin, and one in the south into Ganzhou.

It can also be noted that the Manchu invasion of China exclusively used three passes over the Great Wall to enter the Beijing region (as well as retreat from it it after raids south of the wall, which they did multiple times) and did not use any of the others. These were also the main passes used during the Ming dynasty, for example in the Tumu Crisis. These have been left open on the map and the terrain around them blocked off.

Spoiler

The impassable zone on the border between China and Vietnam reflects the 2000 years of recorded history where all recorded Chinese invasions of Vietnam and Vietnamese invasions of China went through one of three places, from Yunnan along the Red River, through Friendship Pass, and along the coast.

Spoiler

So this would help give a very nice historical flavour to wars.

On the other hand, this is a relatively "generous" distribution of impassable regions, so I would certainly welcome feedback if people think there might be too many.

This is a possible extension to the impassable zones around the Hubei-Hunan-Sichuan-Guizhou border region. In real history, armies never passed through this region before modern times. It should be extremely low development, but if that if not enough to make it unsuitable as an invasion route, impassables are needed.