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Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

Hello and welcome once more to another week of Tinto Maps. This week we are going to the lands even further to the East and taking a look at Korea and Japan. So, without further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
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Korea during the Goryeo dynasty was under the orbit of Yuán, and had very close ties with it, with the Yuán emperors taking Korean wives. The north, though, and also Tamna in the Jeju island wouldn’t be unified under Korea until the following Joseon dynasty, so they are still separated although all of them also under Yuán. On the other side, Japan starts in a very interesting situation. After a failed attempt to overthrow the shogunate and restore imperial power during the Kenmu restoration, one of the generals that contributed to such restoration, Ashikaga Takauji, in the end established his own shogunate in 1336 (just before the start of the game). The emperor had then to flee the capital and thus we start with the period of the Northern and Southern Courts, with two opposing Emperors and the shogun fighting for legitimacy. So, although it appears unified at first glance, Japan hides many internal divisions within (more on that later). Further South, the kingdom of Ryūkyū is not yet unified, so the three mountain kingdoms of Hokuzan, Chūzan and Nanzan vie for supremacy over the island.

Societies of pops
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Basically already shown in the Manchuria Tinto Maps, but they need to be shown here too, especially the Ainu.

Dynasties
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As it happens in China, the “Goryeo dynasty” name is actually not the name of the dynasty itself, which is actually the house of Wang.

Locations
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Provinces
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Here (as well as with the areas next) we have tried to follow the administrative division of both countries in period, but we’ve had to make some adjustments. In Korea, we had to account for the fact that historically, almost immediately after the start of the game the Josen dynasty took over and the administrative divisions are somewhat different, so we’ve adjusted them together (and had to divide some of the bigger provinces for gameplay reasons). In Japan, the administrative divisions remained virtually unchanged since the establishment of the Ritsuryō system in the 7-8th century until after the Meiji restoration in 1868. However, we still had to make some adjustments, and the smaller ones had to unfortunately disappear.

Areas
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Terrain
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Very mountainous and forested areas both, so the few plains have to be taken the most advantage of.

Development
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Not bad developed areas, but obviously development decreases the further north it goes.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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Korea is mainly Korean, and Japan has been divided into four main groups. Besides this, we also have Ainu in the north, Jeju in Jeju island and Ryūkyū in the Ryūkyū islands.

Religions
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Korea has the same (name pending) religion as China while Japan is Shintō. I must say that this Shintō is not at all considered to be a Kami-exclusively-oriented Shintō nor the post-Meiji State Shintō in any shape or form. In all effects, it is considered under the Buddhism umbrella and it is treated as Buddhist Shintō, while of course including some different mechanics and references to the Kami too. The name Shintō was chosen basically because it’s more recognizable and identifiable with Japan. Besides this, there’s also the Ainu religion for the Ainu, and the Utaki religion for the Ryūkyū.

Raw Materials
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Not bad areas for resources, and plenty of rice and fish in Japan to get good sushi. The more observant of you will see that the resources of Hokkaido have already been adjusted thanks to feedback from the previous Manchuria Tinto Maps.

Markets
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Some may find surprising the presence of Izumi as a Market in Japan, but it is the area that served as the main point of entrance for commerce into central Japan, where the merchant town of Sakai developed, until later Osaka developed under Toyotomi and basically took over that function.

Population
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Not much to say here, except that quite a bit of population waiting for some action.

Extraterritorial Countries
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I’m sure many of you were waiting for this. The samurai clans in Japan are represented as Extraterritorial Countries, and we have tried to be as close as possible to their distribution of territory in 1337. As you can imagine, that is not an easy task, and some more tweaking is needed, so if you have any feedback or extra info on that regard it would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, there’s some overlapping of some clans on the same territory and only one name can be shown at a time, so not all names are visible (the Oda clan is still there, I promise), but there are a total of 143 clans (not counting Ashikaga), plus two extra for each of the imperial courts that are present at start. Related to this, each clan will pledge its allegiance to either the northern or the southern court, mainly based on their historical allegiances but allowing a bit of leeway (and those allegiances don’t necessarily have to be permanent). So, as a bit of an extra tease, these are the allegiances of the clans at start (yellow are the north court supporters, blue are the southern court ones, and again keep in mind that only one color can be present even if there’s more than one clan with different allegiances in the same location)
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And that is all for today. Next week there will not be any Tinto Maps due to being a bank holiday, so next one will be in two weeks for a look further south into South East Asia. See you there.
 
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Not directly related to Japan and Korea, but would you say Project Caesar is the most flexible, scriptable, and moddable game PDS has made so far? All signs point to yes, and I'm incredibly excited by how things seem to be open to modifications (EU4 mods, for example, had to wrangle with the game to do advanced systems like MEIOU & Taxes).
The flexibility of the script is certainly astonishing, as almost anything can be done with just script.
 
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As a Korean, I would like to see the administrative divisions of Joseon era over that of Goreo. The dynasty that was in charge of Korea for most of the timeframe was Joseon, not Goreo. The Joseon era divisions are also more familiar to Koreans because we basically still use it today.

Also, I am curious about the sources that say that there were Koreans in Liaodong? Sorry for my bad English, I am not trying to be aggressive here. I am just curious because that part of Korean history is often left out from Korean school textbooks.
A lot of the Koreans in Liaodong were Korean defectors who sided with the Yuan. The most famous of these were the Hong clan in Liaoyang, headed by Hong Pok-wŏn and his descendents, most infamously Hong Ta-gu.
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From Empire's Twilight: Northeast Asia under the Mongols by David M. Robinson
 
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The daimyos were not really all that powerful at this point, I'm guessing they will grow stronger over time, specially due to the internal division between the two courts, eventually leading to the sengoku jidai unless the ashikaga can centralize the country before that.
What you are asking for is not really that accurate for the time period.
I thought they will stay as extraterritorial even during sengoku, devs already told they will own land later on so yea
 
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I have to agree with the people suggesting Shinto be renamed to Shinto-buddhism.
You basically pulled a reverse China here and removed all references to budhism from the religion name, even though budhism was actually more influencial in Japan than in China!
While I understand your reasoning, calling the religion only Shinto will give people unfamiliar with the history of the region the wrong impression.
It is important to emphasize that many teenagers (or even adults) will end up using this game as an educational resource and as such I belive it is of great importance to try to not spread misconceptions.
Please reconsider it.
 
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As it stands, the population of Japan is too high and is incorrectly set by region. I think this is probably because the developers use the old population inference data proposed by McEvedy as a reference. Sawada's inference based on arable land data is as follows.

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Source : Daily Life and Demographic in Ancient Japan

I'm well aware that this is 200 years apart from the times the game deals with. But the population figure of 9 million is simply too much.
 
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Not sure how much you can say besides a yes/no, but:



Is this only for Shinto/Eastern/Buddhist religions, or for every religion in the game?



Are daimyos/clans the only kind of extraterritorial tag that can become settled? Thinking of SoPs here.
1. For all religions, in the sense that each country decides what's happening on the religion inside the country.
2. SoPs are not extraterritorial countries, but they can also settle.
 
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No Nihonsiki? How disappointing...

On a serious note: I'd advise you to not use the term "Ryūkyū", as that is the (mainland) Japanese version of the archipelago's name, and instead use the endonym "Rūchū", or perhaps better yet, the historical anglicization "Lewchew" instead. I also notice you're using Japanese toponyms in Ezo instead of Aynu ones, but I imagine that's just a case not having fully revised the map yet.
More than wanting to be "woke" I suggest these changes because they'd help make it clear that chunks of what we now call Japan weren't really "Japanese" in the way we might think of the word today.
It's the consequence of using Japanese sources, but we'll add dynamic localization for those places eventually.
 
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I had expected quite a few more unpassable areas in definitely Korea, and probably parts of Japan as well.

Is that on purpose, or is there still some work planned to get those on par with most of the rest of the world?
 
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Is Northern Court considered a seperate tag from the Ashikaga? The comments make it sound that way.

I had expected quite a few more unpassable areas in definitely Korea, and probably parts of Japan as well.

Is that on purpose, or is there still some work planned to get those on par with most of the rest of the world?
Agreed. More impassables=more interesting strategic gameplay. Definitely needs to be more in both countries.
 
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We have unfortunately not been able to put ALL clans in the game, but I'll take note of this one too and see if I can add it too.
That’s fair enough, but I will say the Matsura were fairly important, and even survived all the way into the Tokugawa/Edo period. (Their capital of Hirado was a major den of piracy, and a hub for the Dutch to recruit Japanese mercenaries for their colonial ventures)


Hirado has been a port of call for ships between the East Asian mainland and Japan since the Nara period. During the Kamakura and Muromachi periods, the local Matsuura clan held the rights to trade with Korea and with Song-dynasty China. During the Sengoku and early Edo periods, Hirado's role as a center of foreign trade increased, especially vis-à-vis Ming-dynasty China and the Dutch East India Company (Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie or VOC). The Portuguese arrived in Japan in 1543; after the Battle of Fukuda Bay in 1561 the Portuguese stayed for a few more years until they settled in the city of Nagasaki in 1571. The English and Dutch initially reached Japan at the beginning of the 17th century. The first step in the profitable Dutch-Japanese trading relationship was the Shōgun's grant of a trading pass (handelspas) in 1609.[5] In 1613, the British ship Clove arrived in Japan and its Captain John Saris was able to gain the shogunate's permission to establish in Hirado a commercial house of the British East India Company. However, the company soon came to consider this outpost to be unprofitable, especially due to their inability to obtain Japanese raw silk for import to China. Therefore, the British closed their factory in 1623, voluntarily leaving the Dutch as the sole European presence.[6]

At its maximum extent, the Dutch trading center covered the whole area of present-day Sakikata Park.[7] In 1637 and in 1639, stone warehouses were constructed, and the Dutch builders incorporated these dates into the stonework. However, the Tokugawa shogunate disapproved of the use of any Christian year dates, and therefore demanded the immediate destruction of these two structures.[8] This failure to comply with strict sakoku practices was then used as one of the Shogunate's rationales for forcing the Dutch traders to abandon Hirado for the more constricting confines of Dejima, a small artificial island in the present-day city of Nagasaki.[8] The last VOC Opperhoofd or Kapitan at Hirado and the first one at Dejima was François Caron, who oversaw the transfer in 1641.[9][10] Modern research indicated this incident might have been an excuse for the Shogunate to take the Dutch trade away from the Hirado clan.[8] The stone warehouse from 1639 that was torn down was reconstructed back to its original form in 2011.[11]
During the Edo period, Hirado was the seat of the Hirado Domain. Hirado Castle is today a historical and architectural landmark.

( pics are of Hirado and Hizen province )
 

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I think Ulleungdo belongs to the Gaeseong market, not Izumi. While Goryeo's grasp on the island was low, Goryeo annexed the island, and there was a record of residents of the island visiting the Goryeo government in March of 1346.

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Source: Goryeosajeolyo (고려사절요;高麗史節要). It's a history book about Goryeo during the 1450s compiled in chronological style.
Link: https://db.itkc.or.kr/dir/item?itemId=BT#/dir/node?dataId=ITKC_BT_1294A_0260_040_0030

우릉도 (芋陵島) is how people of that time called Ulleungdo
 
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The samurai clans in Japan represented as Extraterritorial Countries stole my heart. Will we have the options of restoring the empire and overthrowing the shogunate?
 
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If Shinto is supposed to be Buddhism mixed with Shinto beliefs why don't you guys just have Mahayana(or whatever it will be called) as the religion of Japan with some "Shinto flavour", since you said that Korean and Vietnamese versions of Mahayana will have a way to not have Daoism incorporated in their faith it seems weird to me that Shinto is separate
 
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