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Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

Hello and welcome once more to another week of Tinto Maps. This week we are going to the lands even further to the East and taking a look at Korea and Japan. So, without further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
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Korea during the Goryeo dynasty was under the orbit of Yuán, and had very close ties with it, with the Yuán emperors taking Korean wives. The north, though, and also Tamna in the Jeju island wouldn’t be unified under Korea until the following Joseon dynasty, so they are still separated although all of them also under Yuán. On the other side, Japan starts in a very interesting situation. After a failed attempt to overthrow the shogunate and restore imperial power during the Kenmu restoration, one of the generals that contributed to such restoration, Ashikaga Takauji, in the end established his own shogunate in 1336 (just before the start of the game). The emperor had then to flee the capital and thus we start with the period of the Northern and Southern Courts, with two opposing Emperors and the shogun fighting for legitimacy. So, although it appears unified at first glance, Japan hides many internal divisions within (more on that later). Further South, the kingdom of Ryūkyū is not yet unified, so the three mountain kingdoms of Hokuzan, Chūzan and Nanzan vie for supremacy over the island.

Societies of pops
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Basically already shown in the Manchuria Tinto Maps, but they need to be shown here too, especially the Ainu.

Dynasties
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As it happens in China, the “Goryeo dynasty” name is actually not the name of the dynasty itself, which is actually the house of Wang.

Locations
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Provinces
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Here (as well as with the areas next) we have tried to follow the administrative division of both countries in period, but we’ve had to make some adjustments. In Korea, we had to account for the fact that historically, almost immediately after the start of the game the Josen dynasty took over and the administrative divisions are somewhat different, so we’ve adjusted them together (and had to divide some of the bigger provinces for gameplay reasons). In Japan, the administrative divisions remained virtually unchanged since the establishment of the Ritsuryō system in the 7-8th century until after the Meiji restoration in 1868. However, we still had to make some adjustments, and the smaller ones had to unfortunately disappear.

Areas
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Terrain
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Very mountainous and forested areas both, so the few plains have to be taken the most advantage of.

Development
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Not bad developed areas, but obviously development decreases the further north it goes.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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Korea is mainly Korean, and Japan has been divided into four main groups. Besides this, we also have Ainu in the north, Jeju in Jeju island and Ryūkyū in the Ryūkyū islands.

Religions
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Korea has the same (name pending) religion as China while Japan is Shintō. I must say that this Shintō is not at all considered to be a Kami-exclusively-oriented Shintō nor the post-Meiji State Shintō in any shape or form. In all effects, it is considered under the Buddhism umbrella and it is treated as Buddhist Shintō, while of course including some different mechanics and references to the Kami too. The name Shintō was chosen basically because it’s more recognizable and identifiable with Japan. Besides this, there’s also the Ainu religion for the Ainu, and the Utaki religion for the Ryūkyū.

Raw Materials
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Not bad areas for resources, and plenty of rice and fish in Japan to get good sushi. The more observant of you will see that the resources of Hokkaido have already been adjusted thanks to feedback from the previous Manchuria Tinto Maps.

Markets
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Some may find surprising the presence of Izumi as a Market in Japan, but it is the area that served as the main point of entrance for commerce into central Japan, where the merchant town of Sakai developed, until later Osaka developed under Toyotomi and basically took over that function.

Population
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Not much to say here, except that quite a bit of population waiting for some action.

Extraterritorial Countries
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I’m sure many of you were waiting for this. The samurai clans in Japan are represented as Extraterritorial Countries, and we have tried to be as close as possible to their distribution of territory in 1337. As you can imagine, that is not an easy task, and some more tweaking is needed, so if you have any feedback or extra info on that regard it would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, there’s some overlapping of some clans on the same territory and only one name can be shown at a time, so not all names are visible (the Oda clan is still there, I promise), but there are a total of 143 clans (not counting Ashikaga), plus two extra for each of the imperial courts that are present at start. Related to this, each clan will pledge its allegiance to either the northern or the southern court, mainly based on their historical allegiances but allowing a bit of leeway (and those allegiances don’t necessarily have to be permanent). So, as a bit of an extra tease, these are the allegiances of the clans at start (yellow are the north court supporters, blue are the southern court ones, and again keep in mind that only one color can be present even if there’s more than one clan with different allegiances in the same location)
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And that is all for today. Next week there will not be any Tinto Maps due to being a bank holiday, so next one will be in two weeks for a look further south into South East Asia. See you there.
 
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Man I really like these maps, but I still feel like the land is floating above the sea, so to say. For me the border between land and sea is very abrupt. Please reply why that is and if there are any plans for it. If not I will get used to it
 
I think this is also skewed significantly lower. It's a conservative estimate, but scholarly estimates are somewhere between 6 million and 7.5 million, because if we estimate 5.5 million, the population growth rate in later statistics is too high even though it's the pre-modern period. It's because it was a difficult time, and the administration in the early Joseon Dynasty at the end of the Goryeo Dynasty was very unformalized, and to be counted in the census would mean that one would be under the penalty of paying taxes and conscription, so it would be very low.

View attachment 1207012

(Might not be accurate translations).. A typical example of the wide variation in results due to differences in interpretation of the same data is the determination of the population size during the Joseon Dynasty. First of all, the study by Kwon Tae-hwan-Shin-ha (1977), which was relied on and cited by many scholars up to this time,3) characterized the population of the Joseon Dynasty as 5.54 million.

However, using <Table 1> above and other sources4), I estimated the population to be 6.71-7.5 million. This is a vague numerical difference, but the resulting difference is quite large. Tae-Hwan Kwon. Kwon's (1977) study underestimates the size of the population in the early period, which leads to a considerably higher population growth rate in the later period. Their study estimated the population at the outbreak of the Imjin War in 1591 at 13.73 million. As a result, their study puts the population growth rate of the Joseon Dynasty (1392-1591) at 0.47%, which is higher than the Late Joseon Dynasty (1639-1910) rate of about 0.21%. However, the authors estimate the population size of the early Joseon Dynasty at 6.71-7.5 million, which is about 1.2-2 million higher than the 5.54 million found by Kwon, Tae-hwan, and Shin, Shin (1977). And the population in 1591 was about 9.33 million to 10.12 million, about 4 million lower than their estimate. As a result, the population growth rate of the Joseon Dynasty was 0.19%, which is characterized by a lower growth rate than the population growth rate of the late Joseon Dynasty, which was 0.27%....

(Edit translations)

source:
이영구, 유병규, 2004, 「 조선전기의 인구와 농업생산력 연구」, 한국농업사학회

Lee, Young-Goo and Yoo, Byung-Kyu, 2004, "A Study of Population and Agricultural Productivity in the Joseon Dynasty," Korean Society of Agricultural History
I think that makes sense.

The population growth rate in the early Joseon period was unusually high compared to other times. Considering this, I would estimate a population of around 6~7.5 million, but that's just my own guess.

In the end, it's up to the developers to decide how to use this feedback, so I wanted to offer them a range of different perspectives. :)
 
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There exist other extraterritorial countries around the world, like bank countries or chivalry orders.
I'm not that keen on this choice: if Japan get clans as extraterritorial entities why not do the same for important european families? I mean, in Italy we have Colonna, Medici, d'Este and Sforza (or its spawns) still in positions of power... And the least we talk about the Bourbons the better.
 
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I think Ulleungdo belongs to the Gaeseong market, not Izumi. While Goryeo's grasp on the island was low, Goryeo annexed the island, and there was a record of residents of the island visiting the Goryeo government in March of 1346.

View attachment 1207045
Source: Goryeosajeolyo (고려사절요;高麗史節要). It's a history book about Goryeo during the 1450s compiled in chronological style.
Link: https://db.itkc.or.kr/dir/item?itemId=BT#/dir/node?dataId=ITKC_BT_1294A_0260_040_0030

우릉도 (芋陵島) is how people of that time called Ulleungdo
Markets are dynamic, so the game decides what market a location belongs to.
 
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Okay so I'm a bit confused here. You can play as the northern court in Kyoto, you can play as the southern court in Yoshino, and you can play as the other 143 other clans so... what is the Japanese Shogunate tag supposed to represent then? What does playing as "Japanese Shogunate", the landed country mean? I was under the impression that it'd reflect the Northern Court under Ashikaga Takauji but... that'd be the Northern court tag itself...right? Then what does the landed country tag "Japanese Shogunate" represent?

Edit: Okay so the pretender court MADE by the shogun himself gets to make independent decisions as its own country - separate from the Shogun himself (who represents the landed country Japanese Shogunate) - is that right?
 
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Is Northern Court considered a seperate tag from the Ashikaga? The comments make it sound that way.


Agreed. More impassables=more interesting strategic gameplay. Definitely needs to be more in both countries.
Both the Northern and Southern Courts are represented as extraterritorial tags, like the rest of the Clans.
The Jimyoin Court is the Northern Court residing in Kyoto, while the Daikakuji Court is the Southern Court in Yamato Province.
 
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How do you guys plan to represent Japan’s snow country, the climate is subtropical and temperate generally, but due to its geography it’s gets some of the heaviest snowfalls in the world. Can you just give it a special modifier that gives worse winters despite the climate?



The heavy snowfalls of Japan's snow country are caused by moisture-laden clouds bumping up against the mountains along the backbone of Honshū and releasing their moisture under the influence of westerly winds blowing off the continent or down from Siberia. As a result, the region includes some of the world's snowiest spots at the same latitudes, many localities are also frequently visited by avalanches.

Frequently snow is so deep in some places that buildings have a special entrance on their second story; people must remove snow from their roofs to prevent its weight from crushing their homes, and special care is taken to protect trees from the snow's weight. In some towns, people used to tunnel paths to one another's homes, and streets were lined with covered sidewalks to ensure that people could get around. Today in areas where temperatures are high enough to make it practical, many roads are equipped with sprinklers using warm ground water to keep them passable by melting the snow.

The most recent record snows were brought by the blizzards of December 2005–February 2006, when well over 3 m (4.5 m in one part of Aomori Prefecture) of snow accumulated in many rural areas, and anywhere from 46 cm (Tottori) to nearly 1.5 m (Aomori) piled up even in several major cities.


(Map of Japans snow country)
 

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Usanguk on Ulleungdo has existed as an independent kingdom since the Tinto period until 300 years ago. Although the kingdom fell in 1022, some refugees from Goryeo and descendants of Usanguk still lived there, and due to the policy of emptying Joseon's islands in the 15th century, they could not live there. The refugees from Usanguk will still be alive in 1337. Hundreds of years of the kingdom's history and the presence of its people show that the land is habitable, which allows independent living. Please make a location.
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Question about Japanese clans, will some... Japanese rumors about Uesugi Kenshin be shown somehow? Let's say an event where someone spreads rumors that you are not a man and you lose legitimacy. Or the possibility itself, to play as a female daimyo with events of falling legitimacy?
 
Oh god. I am going to be playing tall Ryukyu for hundreds of hours. Its own culture, own religion, own provinces, own area, independent tag? It will slap so hard. Tamna and Ezo also look cool. God I love islands. Thanks for this. CAN'T WAIT FOR NEXT WEEK
 
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