Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

[EasterEgg3323]

The Munju (Wonsan) area of Hwaju was relatively undeveloped as a port city during this period (although it was also the main city of the Ssangsong provinces), but it is a natural harbor with favorable natural conditions that was highly prized in later eras. It seems a bit odd that there are no modifiers in this area.

 

[Emp_penguin]

As it stands, the population of Japan is too high and is incorrectly set by region. I think this is probably because the developers use the old population inference data proposed by McEvedy as a reference. Sawada's inference based on arable land data is as follows.

View attachment 1207035View attachment 1207036View attachment 1207037
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Source : Daily Life and Demographic in Ancient Japan

I'm well aware that this is 200 years apart from the times the game deals with. But the population figure of 9 million is simply too much.

Could Japan's population figure be adjusted to between 7.5 million and 8 million? Japan experienced a fairly long period of demographic stagnation from the 8th to the 14th century, so 9 million people in this period is a bit surreal. I understand that feeding this opinion back to the game can be distressing, as this means a whole region adjustment. But I think some adjustments will be needed for a more accurate game.

 

[Magj101]

The plan is that there is an option for that, yes.

In that case if you do that then the Dynasty tag would be the dynasty of the Emperor and not the Daimyo correct? I always found it weird in EU4 you could create the empire of Japan but it would stay as the clans last name. Is there an option to create a new “shogunate” “empire” and restore the old imperial dynasty name or decide to keep the name of the clan and make a new “dynasty”? Or for that would you have to win as the separate imperial factions?

 

[matfer13]

Well, I suggest u delete this message yourself, otherwise it will constitute a serious offense to Asian players on the forum.

It's recurring joke/meme I do every week, it's clearly not meant to be an offense(the glowing red eyes are meant suggest that)

 

[Znikii]

Man, is the Jesuit order an extraterestrial country managing Spanish/Portogese interests in Eadt Asia?

 

[Magj101]

1. For all religions, in the sense that each country decides what's happening on the religion inside the country.
2. SoPs are not extraterritorial countries, but they can also t

1. For all religions, in the sense that each country decides what's happening on the religion inside the country.
2. SoPs are not extraterritorial countries, but they can also settle.

I know it isn’t within the scope of this Tinto talk at all but I know I will forget if I don’t ask now. Does that mean in Catholicism when the reformation happens a nation can decide to be “harsh” or “lenient” and if their “side” doesn’t win they can enforce it or something? I always found it annoying in eu4 that if I went Catholic the reformation would usually be over and I wouldn’t be able to roleplay a “conservative” church Japan since they always chose the lenient/reformed.

 

[McEwanMaster]

By 1337 the daimyo were Shugo Daimyo, meaning that the Shogun appointed them to the territory. It is not until a bit later that they transition into Sengoku Daimyo when they start getting more autonomy and authority over their own land regardless of what the Shogun wanted. That's why they are represented as extraterritorial countries at start, but will turn into normal countries during the Sengoku.

Very cool idea, simulating those political conditions like this, and a great way to leverage the game's mechanics! The coolness of it does open some questions though regarding how theoretically versatile this system could be in the broader game:

1. How closely is the existence (including their rise, fall, and evolution) of these Extraterritorial Countries/Clans tied to the tag's operating characteristics, such as laws? Do they exist as a result of the Japan tag having this IO and having enacted certain laws/reforms, or are they a uniquely scripted construct that could never exist anywhere else without modding?
2. Could this system of Clans, or more generically localized familial landlords, theoretically be expanded to become something that is globally dynamic to simulate political evolution elsewhere? Would it be possible to make it so similar EOs to appear in tags elsewhere in the world that meet similar conditions, such as a sudden loss of royal influence, the rise of a particularly powerful Estate, or a combination of laws and cultural characteristics?

 

[Atromb]

It's recurring joke/meme I do every week, it's clearly not meant to be an offense(the glowing red eyes are meant suggest that)

In all fairness you should have probably gone for like Oda Nobunaga instead of Hirohito.

 

[Knightclub]

two questions:

1: Are the Sanada Clan one of the smaller tags that doesn't have land at the start?

2: Will there be any mechanics in Shinto-Buddhism to handle the religious disunity between the different branches of Pure Land Buddhism. The Tendai Lotus School, Jodo Shu & Jodo Shinshu are the most famous but there was at least a dozen different branches that had very tense relationships with eachother at this time.

 

[thesharpesttool]

any content on the Kirishitan converts in southern Japan, evangelized by Portuguese traders and missionaries?

 

[Goblin Slave]

Could Japan's population figure be adjusted to between 7.5 million and 8 million? Japan experienced a fairly long period of demographic stagnation from the 8th to the 14th century, so 9 million people in this period is a bit surreal. I understand that feeding this opinion back to the game can be distressing, as this means a whole region adjustment. But I think some adjustments will be needed for a more accurate game.

I second this, William Wayne Farris makes a very convincing case for this in his book about Japan’s medieval demographics, he estimates Japan had a population of about 6 million around the year 1280, very similar to Japan’s population in the Heian period (5 million). The years afterward seemed to have constituted very rapid growth as agriculture expanded and the introduction of Champa rice from the mainland, along with a myriad of other advancements I mentioned early on in the thread. By 1450 Farris estimated the Japanese population was around 10 million, so the population for EU5’s starting date falls somewhere between these two numbers. The war between the Northern and Southern courts seemed to have stalled growth a bit as well, so it’s likely the population expanded the most from the 1280s to the 1330s before conflict stagnated things. After the cooldown and eventual end of the Nanbokucho the population once again grew substantially, and their standards of living benefited from the increased development and new technologies of the Muromachi period.

Even during the Sengoku Jidai the Japanese population grew even further, and by 1600 the country had a population of somewhere between 15-18 million people with a substantial urbanization rate of 5%. The end of conflict led to even greater growth during the peaceful Tokugawa/Edo period with the Japanese population reaching around 28 million people around the year 1700 with an urbanization rate of around 15-20%. (Rozman did an excellent book comparing the urbanization of Qing China and Tokugawa Japan. The book Strange Parallels has a lot of information on this as well)

Somewhere between 7-7.5 million for Japan in 1337 sounds about right

Japan's Medieval Population: Famine, Fertility, And War…

This volume charts a course through never-before-survey…

www.goodreads.com

 

[FleetingRain]

It's recurring joke/meme I do every week, it's clearly not meant to be an offense(the glowing red eyes are meant suggest that)

You'd still not post a Hitler with glowing red eyes in the Germany thread.

 

[Javilos Septim]

I would encourage the addition of the main Buddhist temples of Japan to the list of extraterritorial countries. Many of them were really powerful, influential, had literal armies that swore to them, more powerful than many clans, and were pretty active in Japanese politics during all the Ashikaga period.

 

[Aquila SPQR]

Correct me if I'm wrong but does it mean that players will be able to:

1. play as "Japan" (Shogun) and have various clans and two imperial courts controlled by AI inside their country to deal with
2. play as one of the imperial courts while the AI will take control of the entire state and clans
3. play as one of the clans while the AI will control state and both imperial courts?

If so, then it's really mindblowing how much has changed and how much you've prepared for us. This will be your magnum opus, guys.

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

Ryukyu is the name of the archipelago shouldn’t the people be named Ryukyuan?

The Amami islands like Ryukyu had settled agricultural states. They often paid tribute to Ryukyuan kingdoms, but were never conquered (up until the game’s time frame) by the Okinawan kingdom and were never unified under a single kingdom. They should be an SoP (Amami Ajis/Amami chiefdoms/Ajis). Society on these islands seems to be indistinguishable from Okinawa we just have little information about the political situation

Yonaguni was an island once ruled by a shaman (yuta)-queen of sorts before being conquered by Ryukyu in the 1500s. It has unique and peculiar cultural customs, mythology, language and traditions compared to other island groups. It also has a unique political history having fought with the neighboring islands independently, but also having been separately conquered by the unified Ryukyu. I understand the province would be small and you’ve a rule against making islands bigger, but I can dream.

Yaeyama and Miyako were fishing communities as far as I’m aware (feel free to demonstrate me wrong) and didn’t rely on agriculture. They should be colonizable locations for the kingdom(s) of Okinawa. They did not have the organization to be SoPs.

Kumejima and the other islands west of Okinawa could also be a colonizable location as they were independent fishing communities until the Ryukyuan conquest in the 1500s, but could also be lumped into one of the Okinawan provinces or ignored due to their small size and lack of unique political history.

I recommend the following estates (Noro (clergy), Aji (Nobility), Heimin (Commoners), and Yukatchu (burghers/bureaucrats).

The Noro priestesses were the clergy but also fulfilled important administrative roles. The king's sister was appointed the high priestess and wielded a lot of political power. The Noro were a unique institution to Ryukyu unlike anywhere else. The Yukatchu are immigrants and those influenced by immigrants from China (thus should follow Sanjiao or Mahayana or whatever). They wanted to marginalize and eventually eliminate the Noro as the Noro were an all female institution and wielded a lot of political power and influence over the king. They also fulfilled some administrative roles although separate ones from the Noro. Ideally, I would like a ‘something’ to represent this conflict, but Ryukyu was a tiny irrelevant archipelago, so If not I'll make a mod that lets me lead a Noro theocracy kicking out the Yukatchu and conquering the world under absolute rule of the high priestess.

The Yuta did divination just like the Noro did and thus threatened their legitimacy, in turn, they threatened the legitimacy of the state. The Yuta were shamans so they could be represented by shamanist minorities (I wouldn’t) to represent that conflict. I mention them because they could be used for political, cultural and religious events on the islands and could also be used a heretic rebels (if that particular feature still exists)

There should be a Buddhist Minority in Chuzan (Ryukyu koku yurai ki, also the oldest temples are there)
There are two options either there would be very tiny Sanjiao/Buddhist minorities across Okinawa (more historically plausible) or they would appear due to an event in 1392 called the Kumemura (mythological origin). These people would be the Yukatchu.

I understand it might be a perfectly reasonable abstraction on your part, but Ryukyu was highly diverse and should have separate cultures in game (Yonaguni-Miyako-Yaeyama-Okinawa-Amami) as they're quite distinct in real life and were even more so historically. These islands had been quite isolated for a very long time so diverged a lot more than mainland groups would, also the southernmost islands were heavily influenced by Austronesians.

Kerr George, Okinawa, the History of an Island People
Takashi Uezato "The Formation of the Port City of Naha in Ryukyu and the World of Maritime Asia: From the Perspective of a Japanese Network."
THE UNITY OF GOVERNMENT AND RELIGION IN THE RYUKYU ISLANDS TO 1,500 A.D. Edward E Bollinger

Seconding this to make it more likely for the devs to see. PLEASE add in matriarchal theocracies and fishing communities. This will make Ryukyu feel like its own world.

 

[crowdemon]

Thanks for showing the map of different clans. Good DD.

 

[Hwann]

Jeju Island was used as a horse ranch by the Yuan Dynasty for their expedition to Japan. Even after the island was returned to Goryeo, horse technicians sent by the Yuan Dynasty continued to raise thousands of horses. In 1374, when the Yuan was in decline, these horse technicians even rebelled. Considering this history, it seems right to divide the locations into two(north and south) and allocate one as a 'horses' raw material. It is also a larger island than Ryukyu, which has three locations.

english.cha.go.kr/chaen/search/selectGeneralSearchDetail.do?mn=EN_02_02&sCcebKdcd=16&ccebAsno=03470000&sCcebCtcd=50&pageIndex=1&region=&canAsset=&ccebPcd1=&searchWrd=JEJU+HORSE&startNum=&endNum=&stCcebAsdt=&enCcebAsdt=&canceled=&ccebKdcd=&ccebCtcd=

 

[Mrkew]

If you decided on using macrons in romanization, you're missing one in "Nanpo" Sea (and presumably also the islands)

 

[Ekyman]

For all the people asking for Shintō to be renamed to Shintō Buddhism: note that none of the variants of Buddhism have “Buddhism” in their map name, it’s just “Mahayana” and “Theravada” (see the India and China map threads).

 

[Oglesby]

You are mixing it with Societies of Pops, Extraterritorial Countries are tied to buildings in a location.

This is why I suggested that we go with Army (or military if we merge in navy) based polities, building based polities, and pop based polities at least then it would be clear to what it is 'tied'.