Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

[Wolfgang Schmidt]

Regarding the population of Japan, here is a screenshot of a popular video on You Tube for 1337 on a map of Japan.

I also looked in Wikipedia,
1150 - 6,920,000
1330 - 9,750,000
1500 - 11,260,000

 

[viola]

For all the people asking for Shintō to be renamed to Shintō Buddhism: note that none of the variants of Buddhism have “Buddhism” in their map name, it’s just “Mahayana” and “Theravada” (see the India and China map threads).

But "Mahayana", "Theravada" and "Vajrayana" only ever refer to schools of Buddhism though. Shinto is not a school of Buddhism, it refers to a series of folks beliefs that had a separate and different origin from Buddhism, and even when they syncretized there was the general knowledge that Buddhism was the foreign religion while Shinto was the native one.

 

[Atromb]

For all the people asking for Shintō to be renamed to Shintō Buddhism: note that none of the variants of Buddhism have “Buddhism” in their map name, it’s just “Mahayana” and “Theravada” (see the India and China map threads).

While true, mahayana and theravada are variants of buddhism, so the association is implicit. Imho the opposite is true with shinto, at a first glance it gives the appearance that the japanese were practicing their traditional politheism rather than "shinto flavoured" mahayana buddhism.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

Very cool idea, simulating those political conditions like this, and a great way to leverage the game's mechanics! The coolness of it does open some questions though regarding how theoretically versatile this system could be in the broader game:

1. How closely is the existence (including their rise, fall, and evolution) of these Extraterritorial Countries/Clans tied to the tag's operating characteristics, such as laws? Do they exist as a result of the Japan tag having this IO and having enacted certain laws/reforms, or are they a uniquely scripted construct that could never exist anywhere else without modding?
2. Could this system of Clans, or more generically localized familial landlords, theoretically be expanded to become something that is globally dynamic to simulate political evolution elsewhere? Would it be possible to make it so similar EOs to appear in tags elsewhere in the world that meet similar conditions, such as a sudden loss of royal influence, the rise of a particularly powerful Estate, or a combination of laws and cultural characteristics?

I was thinking something similar. Imagine noble houses in other countries being represened as extraterritorial tags. Prooooobably would be a tad complex but it'd be interesting to see at least!

Anyway, will any buddhist monasteries be tags? To my knowledge, buddhist monasteries could be quite powerful in this period and basically rival clans in terms of revenue and power, so it'd be interesting to see. Plus the eventual Ikko Ikki. Thinking specifically of temples like Enryaku-ji, I feel like it'd make a lot of sense as an extraterritorial country in its own right.

 

[SuperLexxe]

---

This may be a bit late to get any response

However, I think adding the Sakai merchants as a playable tag would definitely bring a nice contrast to the feudal dominated tags of Japan.

---

 

[RhoxOS]

Currently, Jeju (Tamna) produces Fish. But I think the horse is a more accurate and interesting choice for the island. Yuan tried to control the island directly because it was a good breeding place for horses. (Although Goryeo controlled the island in the terms of paper after the abolishment of Tamna Prefectures耽羅摠管府) This horse breeding trend continued till the Joseon era.

Many of the Mongolian herders (Mokho;목호;牧胡) are sent to Jeju island for this and they revolted when Goryeo King picked the anti-Yuan policy. This incident is called "Revolt of the Mokho" (Korean Wikipedia link: https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/목호의_난) and the reason why the Jeju-Yuan-Horse connection is a famous story among the Koreans.

This place was so famous for horses that more than 20k horses out of 30k horses sent to Ming during 1379~1392 were from Jeju. (韓國馬政史;南都泳;1996) If you go to the Joseon era, there is even a novel that monopolizes the whole horse market of the country simply by buying all the horses on Jeju island. So if you exaggerate, Jeju is the sole horse-producing place in the Korean peninsula and nearby islands. So I think the horse is a better resource for the island


EDITL Added source for the 20K out of 30K story

 

[Thorum]

This may be a bit late to get any response

Tinto is many months behind on map reviews, so take your time

 

[Linbot#6018]

For all the people asking for Shintō to be renamed to Shintō Buddhism: note that none of the variants of Buddhism have “Buddhism” in their map name, it’s just “Mahayana” and “Theravada” (see the India and China map threads).

There are two problems with this:

1.
"Shintou" is not a form of Buddhism that is distinct from Mahayana. In fact, as others have pointed out, the traditions of Mahayana cut horizontally through China and Japan, not vertically between them. Buddhism in Japan is fundamentally within the Chinese buddhist tradition and is not any less Mahayana than Buddhism in China.

"Shintou" itself is not properly spoken of before the 19th century. But in the sense that it can be, it refers to native Japanese spirit-worship which has been heavily syncretised with Buddhism, not a form of Buddhism.

2.
Japan is equally as if not more Mahayana than China is. Buddhism is actually more politically influential in Japan than it is in China, and moreover, as has been said, the form of Buddhism it is that is influential is the same form that is influential in China. Native Japanese shamanism doesn't make Japanese religion distinct from Mahayana to any greater degree than native Chinese faiths like Taoism and Chinese folk religion make China distinct from it.
Mahayana doesn't simplistically represent "Chinese Buddhism" because there are Indian pops that are also Mahayana, so having China be Mahayana and Japan be Shintou means that Chinese religion is identical to the religion of those Indian pops, while Japanese religion is a totally different form of Buddhism, even though there's nothing that makes Japan more religiously unique than China is.



Therefore, either China and Japan should both be something other than Mahayana, or they both should be Mahayana. The fact that the name Shintou is "more recognisable" is irrelevant for all of the reasons listed above. I don't know what "Kami mechanics" are, how they help portray the society and politics of Japan better (because as stated previously, Japanese shamanism wasn't an institutionally powerful religion in the same sense Buddhism was), or why they're more necessary than the equivalent non-Buddhist Chinese religion mechanics (if anything those are more necessary). It doesn't make any sense to me why Japan gets to be special in this way.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

I wonder if there'll be anything to represent certain clans already essentially being entrenched where they were. Like to my knowledge Shimazu was already pretty firmly established as its own territory. I also imagine/hope actual appointment as Shugo over certain provinces will be a mechanic. Would be cool, rather than just assuming each Daimyo starts as a Shugo if it was part of the game plan where you start either as a Shugo or seek appointment as a Shugo over a province, and when that happens you get a certain portion of the taxes from that province(plus I imagine more authority to deal with other clans in the province).

 

[redcola]

japanese should be under one culture, not 4, excluding ryukyuan (those are fine), its weird to treat korean as unified culture and not the japanese just because of their difference in accent

 

[Ekyman]

But "Mahayana", "Theravada" and "Vajrayana" only ever refer to schools of Buddhism though. Shinto is not a school of Buddhism, it refers to a series of folks beliefs that had a separate and different origin from Buddhism, and even when they syncretized there was the general knowledge that Buddhism was the foreign religion while Shinto was the native one.

So are you saying it should or shouldn’t have “Buddhism” in the map name?

While true, mahayana and theravada are variants of buddhism, so the association is implicit. Imho the opposite is true with shinto, at a first glance it gives the appearance that the japanese were practicing their traditional politheism rather than "shinto flavoured" mahayana buddhism.

Fair, I’m just pointing out the precedent. It might be weird if one religion says “Buddhism” and the other forms of Buddhism don’t though.

Not saying “Buddhism” is also more consistent with the rest of the map - none of the forms of Christianity or Islam or other religions include the name of the overarching religion AFAIK, except for some of the small shamanisms.

There are two problems with this:

1.
"Shintou" is not a form of Buddhism that is distinct from Mahayana. In fact, as others have pointed out, the traditions of Mahayana cut horizontally through China and Japan, not vertically between them. Buddhism in Japan is fundamentally within the Chinese buddhist tradition and is not any less Mahayana than Buddhism in China.

"Shintou" itself is not properly spoken of before the 19th century. But in the sense that it can be, it refers to native Japanese spirit-worship which has been heavily syncretised with Buddhism, not a form of Buddhism.

2.
Japan is equally as if not more Mahayana than China is. Buddhism is actually more politically influential in Japan than it is in China, and moreover, as has been said, the form of Buddhism it is that is influential is the same form that is influential in China. Native Japanese shamanism doesn't make Japanese religion distinct from Mahayana to any greater degree than native Chinese faiths like Taoism and Chinese folk religion make China distinct from it.
Mahayana doesn't simplistically represent "Chinese Buddhism" because there are Indian pops that are also Mahayana, so having China be Mahayana and Japan be Shintou means that Chinese religion is identical to the religion of those Indian pops, while Japanese religion is a totally different form of Buddhism, even though there's nothing that makes Japan more religiously unique than China is.



Therefore, either China and Japan should both be something other than Mahayana, or they both should be Mahayana. The fact that the name Shintou is "more recognisable" is irrelevant for all of the reasons listed above. I don't know what "Kami mechanics" are, how they help portray the society and politics of Japan better (because as stated previously, Japanese shamanism wasn't an institutionally powerful religion in the same sense Buddhism was), or why they're more necessary than the equivalent non-Buddhist Chinese religion mechanics (if anything those are more necessary). It doesn't make any sense to me why Japan gets to be special in this way.

I’m not sure what this has to do with my post? Problems with what?

 

[Densetsu VII]

Been waiting on this one for awhile! I can tell Paradox has put a lot of research into it, and I think the approach of having the samurai clans as non-landed entities is interesting, but without hands-on experience with those kind of tags and understanding of how the Shogun IO works, it's tough to give feedback and definitely needs its own DD. All I will say is that with the history being what it is, it seems odd to represent the North and South Courts as 'tags' but without any independence under the Shogunate. They went to war multiple times, and eventually unified diplomatically through marriage; so whatever the Shogunate is, it has to have mechanics for this. I don't even understand how a tag without land is supposed to muster soldiers, so I can only assume Paradox has accounted for all this. I imagine most of the people reading the DD's would think a Shogunate DD is too specific this early on, so I can only hope we get it sooner rather than later, since the mechanics of the sShogunate will really determine how interesting it is to play in Japan. As many have noted, many of the historical events Japanese history buffs would want to see over the course of Project Caesar take place in the following centuries, from the founding of the Tokugawa, to the incursion of Christianity, and I get that you prioritize the starting date, but I do hope these events are added, at least the larger ones. And since no one else has asked, can you confirm there's an event to create Kinkakuji, the golden pavillion in Kyoto, which historically happened at the behest of the Ashikaga Yoshimitsu in 1397? I think it'd be a shame not to have some reference to that in game, for example, after you reunify the courts.

I wish we could get an even more zoomed in map, or set of maps, for the locations - even if you zoom in manually, it's almost impossible to read the location names. So forgive me if I get any of this wrong due to lack of clarity on the map, would love to revisit this with more zoomed in versions.

It seems like Musashi is now the province and the area which should be Edo is in there, but it's not called Edo. I'd love to know the logic here, since Wikipedia's History of Tokyo notes that the name Edo is traced back to the 12th century, so it would definitely be called that at this time, and is certainly very recognizable under that name. It appears to just be part of a Tama district, which seems to always have referred to the area west of Edo, around this time. If the idea is that Edo was too small at this time to be its own area, I would contend that, even though there's no event currently, there *should* be an event to expand Edo dramatically, as happened under the Tokugawa in the late 1500s. Presumably, any daimyo with significant internal wealth who is handed (presumably land granting is the essential mechanic of the Shogunate to manage loyalty) Musashi by a ruler and control of the Shogunate (which one imagines wouldn't be possible until later in the game) should get the event. And assuming that the game has no mechanism to divide a province over the course of a game, someone I wouldn't expect or even necessarily want, I think there will come a time when it doesn't make sense to have Tama be the most important place in Musashi. So unless the whole thing gets renamed by event or something, it seems odd not to have a separate Edo.

While this is of lesser importance, I don't think it's appropriate to have the Kamakura province be grass-flatlands. Like if you visit this place, you'll see that calling it flat is a bit of a headscratcher, especially Yokosuka toward the south which is lumped in with Kamakura in the map. My suspicion is that someone looked at google maps, saw that it colors the area near Mt Fuji in a deeper green, and reasonably assumed that the comparatively lighter topography was flat. Honestly, I don't think the grasslands topography fits it either - while I don't know for certain how it looked in the 1300s, it's hard to imagine that it was *more* urbanized than it is today, and it has plenty of trees today and not a lot of grass, so I would call it woods. If there's some means by which this area is still considered 'flat' I would love to know what the logic or conditions are by which we decide the topography.

Thanks for the hard work!

 

[Atromb]

Fair, I’m just pointing out the precedent. It might be weird if one religion says “Buddhism” and the other forms of Buddhism don’t though.

Not saying “Buddhism” is also more consistent with the rest of the map - none of the forms of Christianity or Islam or other religions include the name of the overarching religion AFAIK, except for some of the small shamanisms.

Fair, it's a good point. Yet I feel its not the same, everyone knows/can easily find out, that a sunni is a type of muslim and a catholic a type of christian. Shinto is however commonly used to refer to japanese folk beliefs, not to refer to japanese buddhism (even if it is influenced by shintoism) Paradox usage might be different here, but that can still cause confusion and misinformation, giving off the impression that japanese people are/were not, in fact, fundamentally, buddhists.

 

[Holy_Roman_Empire]

Gem

View attachment 1206903

We get it you hate trans people, you don't have to insert that hate into everything

 

[Inzano]

We get it you hate trans people, you don't have to insert that hate into everything

Where is trans hate in this post? I see only meme for japanese fanboys.

 

[uesugishingen]

Does each clan get unique ideas? So if I wanted Oda-like ideas, I'd have to play Oda instead of another clan?

 

[SaoMagnifico]

Will there be events relating to the relationship between the Japanese and Ainu peoples, e.g. the colonization of Ezo/Hokkaidō?

 

[uesugishingen]

North Echigo should be Tohoku culture.
Gifu, Nagano, and Echigo dialects are transitional dialects, those areas should be a mix of Togoku and Saigoku cultures.

 

[Praetorian44]

I see a lot of people asking if the ability to give land to the extraterritorial daimyos can be used for other extraterritorial countries (i.e. other building based countries), since the TT about country types made it clear that extraterritorial countries cannot own land. I think there may be some misunderstanding here. The devs can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is still the case. I don't think the daimyos will remain extraterritorial building based countries once they own land, I believe they're just being changed into regular countries either by an event or some other scripted content (thus something that modders could easily do too). Johan already stated in that earlier TT that country types can be changed. I asked him about this in the country type TT, I'll post my question and his response from that thread below.

A couple modding questions:
1) Would it be possible to add a navy based country for mods, even if you can't find a reason to have them for vanilla?
2) Will there be an effect to change countries to different types for modders to use?
3) Will modders be able to make the society of pops playable if they aren't in vanilla?

1) no, we have to code the system.
2) yes
3) doubt it

 

[Holy_Roman_Empire]

Where is trans hate in this post? I see only meme for japanese fanboys.

The left figure has a trans flag shirt on. If you look up "trans wojack" you can find dozens of variations upon that exact caricature depicting trans people (specifically trans women) in the worst physical stereotypes imaginable.