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Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

Hello and welcome once more to another week of Tinto Maps. This week we are going to the lands even further to the East and taking a look at Korea and Japan. So, without further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
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Korea during the Goryeo dynasty was under the orbit of Yuán, and had very close ties with it, with the Yuán emperors taking Korean wives. The north, though, and also Tamna in the Jeju island wouldn’t be unified under Korea until the following Joseon dynasty, so they are still separated although all of them also under Yuán. On the other side, Japan starts in a very interesting situation. After a failed attempt to overthrow the shogunate and restore imperial power during the Kenmu restoration, one of the generals that contributed to such restoration, Ashikaga Takauji, in the end established his own shogunate in 1336 (just before the start of the game). The emperor had then to flee the capital and thus we start with the period of the Northern and Southern Courts, with two opposing Emperors and the shogun fighting for legitimacy. So, although it appears unified at first glance, Japan hides many internal divisions within (more on that later). Further South, the kingdom of Ryūkyū is not yet unified, so the three mountain kingdoms of Hokuzan, Chūzan and Nanzan vie for supremacy over the island.

Societies of pops
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Basically already shown in the Manchuria Tinto Maps, but they need to be shown here too, especially the Ainu.

Dynasties
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As it happens in China, the “Goryeo dynasty” name is actually not the name of the dynasty itself, which is actually the house of Wang.

Locations
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Provinces
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Here (as well as with the areas next) we have tried to follow the administrative division of both countries in period, but we’ve had to make some adjustments. In Korea, we had to account for the fact that historically, almost immediately after the start of the game the Josen dynasty took over and the administrative divisions are somewhat different, so we’ve adjusted them together (and had to divide some of the bigger provinces for gameplay reasons). In Japan, the administrative divisions remained virtually unchanged since the establishment of the Ritsuryō system in the 7-8th century until after the Meiji restoration in 1868. However, we still had to make some adjustments, and the smaller ones had to unfortunately disappear.

Areas
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Terrain
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Very mountainous and forested areas both, so the few plains have to be taken the most advantage of.

Development
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Not bad developed areas, but obviously development decreases the further north it goes.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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Korea is mainly Korean, and Japan has been divided into four main groups. Besides this, we also have Ainu in the north, Jeju in Jeju island and Ryūkyū in the Ryūkyū islands.

Religions
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Korea has the same (name pending) religion as China while Japan is Shintō. I must say that this Shintō is not at all considered to be a Kami-exclusively-oriented Shintō nor the post-Meiji State Shintō in any shape or form. In all effects, it is considered under the Buddhism umbrella and it is treated as Buddhist Shintō, while of course including some different mechanics and references to the Kami too. The name Shintō was chosen basically because it’s more recognizable and identifiable with Japan. Besides this, there’s also the Ainu religion for the Ainu, and the Utaki religion for the Ryūkyū.

Raw Materials
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Not bad areas for resources, and plenty of rice and fish in Japan to get good sushi. The more observant of you will see that the resources of Hokkaido have already been adjusted thanks to feedback from the previous Manchuria Tinto Maps.

Markets
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Some may find surprising the presence of Izumi as a Market in Japan, but it is the area that served as the main point of entrance for commerce into central Japan, where the merchant town of Sakai developed, until later Osaka developed under Toyotomi and basically took over that function.

Population
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Not much to say here, except that quite a bit of population waiting for some action.

Extraterritorial Countries
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I’m sure many of you were waiting for this. The samurai clans in Japan are represented as Extraterritorial Countries, and we have tried to be as close as possible to their distribution of territory in 1337. As you can imagine, that is not an easy task, and some more tweaking is needed, so if you have any feedback or extra info on that regard it would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, there’s some overlapping of some clans on the same territory and only one name can be shown at a time, so not all names are visible (the Oda clan is still there, I promise), but there are a total of 143 clans (not counting Ashikaga), plus two extra for each of the imperial courts that are present at start. Related to this, each clan will pledge its allegiance to either the northern or the southern court, mainly based on their historical allegiances but allowing a bit of leeway (and those allegiances don’t necessarily have to be permanent). So, as a bit of an extra tease, these are the allegiances of the clans at start (yellow are the north court supporters, blue are the southern court ones, and again keep in mind that only one color can be present even if there’s more than one clan with different allegiances in the same location)
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And that is all for today. Next week there will not be any Tinto Maps due to being a bank holiday, so next one will be in two weeks for a look further south into South East Asia. See you there.
 
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I also believe that Edo should be a location, it sounds like it was around at the time.

As for cultures, shouldn't there be some Emishi culture people in northern and northeastern Japan?
 
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Shinto is more recognizable as a name and its association with Japan, and Shinbutsu-shūgō is more a concept than the name of the religion. The name appears regardless in the game inside Shinto though.
Ok but this is silly - Shinto is something that has a distinct meaning, and you’re building a conceptual framework to explore how Japan did it’s religion, so Shinbutsu-Shugo would make sense as the conceptual name for this super fusion religion.

As it stands, it’s sorta like being “oh yeah this country that was jainist with a few shaivite traditions? They’re Hindu cause more people know the name.” You’re making a super detailed history map game, what’s the point in playing to pop history?
 
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Okay, so Japan, China, Korea and Vietnam all follow Mahayana Buddhism mixed with local beliefs and philosophies. China, Korea and Vietnam have different syncretic beliefs from each other (China has both Daoism and Confucianism, Korea has Confucianism but not Daoism, unsure what's going on in Vietnam), yet they are are all grouped together as one religion, with the local differences instead being shown through religious mechanics. Japan however, has their local syncretism represented through an entirely different religon instead. Why the special treatment for Japan?
 
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I have 5 questions that was initially about Japan but then expanded into disasters in general:
  1. Japan sits on the Ring of Fire. Will there be earthquakes, volcano eruptions, tsunamis, and other relevant disasters, even the small ones in Project Caesar?
  2. Will the disasters happen at the exact same time as IRL, or will there be mean time to happen like in EU4?
  3. Will disasters that happen elsewhere affects other places in the other side of the earth such as 1700 Cascadia Earthquake that brought waves to the coasts of Japan and 1815 Tambora Earthquake that triggered Year Without a Summer worldwide?
  4. Since we're at it, will similar disasters that happened in any other places on earth be included in Project Caesar for the sake historical accuracy and real simulation of history, as they will happen anyway even without human touch?
  5. If it's not possible to add every single disaster in vanilla, could they at least be available in DLC or Expansions?
Pardon me if this has been talked about elsewhere. I've searched in the forums but couldn't find answers from the devs. Perhaps I missed something. And thank you again for the devs (and their coffee makers) researching history and putting it together as a playable game isn't an easy task
 
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You are mixing it with Societies of Pops, Extraterritorial Countries are tied to buildings in a location.
These are countries that are based around the buildings they own. They can’t own land directly, but can have subjects that own land. Their buildings often have pops directly linked to the building, and those pops are also tied to the country.
The description in the talk on August 21st appears to be close to the patricians and estates of the commercial republic system in CKII? However, during this period, the clans that participated in the competition actually controlled the land rather than just some estates and population. They legitimized their rule by obtaining titles appointed by the court.
 
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The term "Jeju" is used from the mainland (the Korean Peninsula) perspective, so I believe that "Jeju" culture should instead be referred to as "Tamna" culture. "Tamna" is a name that historically and culturally represents the island's unique identity and traditions prior to its incorporation into the mainland’s jurisdiction.
In academia the term "Tamna" is sometimes used for the largely unattested Japonic substrate language of Jeju before the island was "Koreanized", which I think it was by the start of the game, so there could be some confusion. Ultimately both names work imo.

Disappointed you've chosen to go the same route as EU4 and create an entirely fictional cultural divide in Japan. If you don't want Japan to just be one culture, though, I don't know if you have many other options, since we have so little data on dialects from this period. Not sure why you'd be so opposed to Japan all being one culture, though? If English qualifies as one culture, surely Japanese does as well.
Don't know why people are disliking this. If Japanese cultural divisions weren't very pronounced during the game's timeline, what's wrong with going for a merge rather than a split? Regardless, the division shown here should definitely be scrutinized: 1) way too clear borders (I assume this will be fixed eventually regardless); 2) where do these names come from?; 3) what is the basis for this division?

What do people think about renaming Shinto to Shinbutsu-shūgō to be more inclusive of Buddhism?
This is going to make some people reel the bad way but I think the way to do it might be to just get rid of Shinto as a religion and replace it with region-specific mechanics for Mahāyāna Buddhism. It's my understanding that "Shintoism" wasn't really an organized religion at all until the Meidi Restoration when the two religions were forcibly unsyncretized. Sure, people worshipped kami, but this was more of a religious substrate the way you'll find in places like Scandinavia, where people still believe in fays, trolls, and still celebrate pagan holidays with a Christian/secular bent, no? It's not like polytheism is incompatible with Buddhism.
TL;DR: Buddhism was the only organized religion of Japan troughout the whole game (Confucianism becomes a thing later but honestly I'm not sure how you'd begin to represent it, probably not even as a religion). The game seeks to simulate state administration, not necessarily the intricate beliefs of every single individual that each number on a given piechart represents. It's probably fine to represent some shrine-going kami-worshipping mediaeval Japanese peasant as a Buddhist, because to the extent that they think about their own religious beliefs, it's not in a "Shinto vs. Buddhist" dichotomy but rather in a "participates in organized religion (i.e. Buddhism)-practices folk tradition" scale.
 
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I disagree on how Tamna(or Jeju, as it would be called later) is depicted as independent. The Tamna Prefectures that were established after the Mongol conquests of Korea were abolished in 1301, at the request of King Chungnyeol. It became the Tamna Manhobu(10 mingghan), and the control of the island was transferred to Goryeo. It was governed by a Manho sent from Goryeo and two Jeju governors. Although it did have a stronger Mongol influence compared to the rest of the country(the leftover Mongols revolted in Jeju in 1374), it was effectively a part of Goryeo. The local Kingdom of Tamna was abolished in 1105.
How autonomous was Tamna relative to the rest of Goryeo? Depending on the answer I think perhaps it may be acceptable to depict Tamna as a vassal of Goryeo instead of Yuán.
 
Thank you for this insightful chapter on Japan in Project Caesar! As a longtime enthusiast of playing Japan in Paradox games, I’m thrilled to see the potential depth here. I’m curious about a few areas:

  1. The Southern and Northern Courts Conflict (1336-1392): How will Project Caesar capture the internal struggle between the imperial courts, and Ashikaga's complex role? Could we see mechanics similar to EU4's HRE for representing the factional disputes?
  2. Sengoku Jidai & Religious Shifts (1477-1638): Japan’s Warring States period brought intense regional conflict, the influence of Christianity, and new technologies. Will there be specific mechanics to showcase this period’s fluid alliances and cultural shifts? Also, will the impact of Christianity be similar to CK3's Iberian Struggle or introduce something new?
  3. Unification and Alternate History Potential: Lastly, I wonder if alternate paths, like Japan embracing Christianity or exploring new lands, will be possible. It could add a unique twist, showcasing Japan’s potential as an early colonial power.
Thanks again, and looking forward to how these ideas take shape in the game!
 
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Thank you for this insightful chapter on Japan in Project Caesar! As a longtime enthusiast of playing Japan in Paradox games, I’m thrilled to see the potential depth here. I’m curious about a few areas:

  1. The Southern and Northern Courts Conflict (1336-1392): How will Project Caesar capture the internal struggle between the imperial courts, and Ashikaga's complex role? Could we see mechanics similar to EU4's HRE for representing the factional disputes?
  2. Sengoku Jidai & Religious Shifts (1477-1638): Japan’s Warring States period brought intense regional conflict, the influence of Christianity, and new technologies. Will there be specific mechanics to showcase this period’s fluid alliances and cultural shifts? Also, will the impact of Christianity be similar to CK3's Iberian Struggle or introduce something new?
  3. Unification and Alternate History Potential: Lastly, I wonder if alternate paths, like Japan embracing Christianity or exploring new lands, will be possible. It could add a unique twist, showcasing Japan’s potential as an early colonial power.
Thanks again, and looking forward to how these ideas take shape in the game!
This is a map feedback thread, not a Tinto Talk, so you probably won't get detailed descriptions of game mechanics here.
 
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Overall, I am very pleasantly surprised by how well thought out this all seems at first glance. My only concerns would be the lack of representation for powerful Buddhist Monasteries as ETCs. Are there any plans to account for the influence of for instance the Five Mountains monastery system and the political influence of various sects? Buddhist Sects warred for political clout and influence and were landholders that in some places rivalled the power of the Shugo. I would love to see events handling the establishment of the Ikki leagues in the Sengoku or even the establishment of Osaka as its own ETC if it becomes too wealthy for a Kanrei, Shogun, or (Buddha forbid!) restored Emperor to control directly.

EDIT: I just looked closer and I see the Temples as ETCs. I will leave the above post open for posterity, oh what a fool I was.

10/10
 
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The description in the talk on August 21st appears to be close to the patricians and estates of the commercial republic system in CKII? However, during this period, the clans that participated in the competition actually controlled the land rather than just some estates and population. They legitimized their rule by obtaining titles appointed by the court.
I presume there'll be some sort of system where the clans can become Shugo of the various provinces, granting them incomes. The estate buildings would represent their personally held land and land they can acquire in their position as Shugo later on. And over time they'll become independent as Shogunate control grows ever weaker. IMO this is a way more interesting system, especially given they can actually portray the disparate holdings of clans and multiple clans having lands in the same locations, plus the interest in portraying the devolution from clan held lands nominally held on behalf of the court/shogun transitioning to more independent and personal domains.
 
The daimyo will get ways of getting to own the land and turn into normal, landed tags.
Is it possible for them to then turn back into extraterritorial tags? Like, if the Sengoku Jidai happens and a bunch of daimyos turn into landed tags, and then someone goes and wins the Sengoku Jidai and creates a new Shogunate, can they force the daimyos to give up their territory?
 
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Korea has the same (name pending) religion as China while Japan is Shintō. I must say that this Shintō is not at all considered to be a Kami-exclusively-oriented Shintō nor the post-Meiji State Shintō in any shape or form. In all effects, it is considered under the Buddhism umbrella and it is treated as Buddhist Shintō, while of course including some different mechanics and references to the Kami too. The name Shintō was chosen basically because it’s more recognizable and identifiable with Japan. Besides this, there’s also the Ainu religion for the Ainu, and the Utaki religion for the Ryūkyū.
I'm sorry, what?????
 
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Curious about Hokuriku area...

1) Kinda bummed that Wakasa was folded into Tango province, especially because it then looks like San'indo continues up the coast into Hokurikudo, but so it is.
2) The locations of Nyu, Imadate, and Sakai cover a relatively large flatland (centered on modern Fukui) but are listed as hills, while all of Kaga, Noto, and most of Etchu are flat (between modern Kanazawa, Toyama, and the entire Noto peninsula northward).
3) Natural harbors on the Sea of Japan are non-existent? Tsuruga has a quite protected natural bay and was historically important. Not sure exactly where else on the coast would be worthy of a modifier but other potential options would be something around (modern names used because that's what I know, sorry) Matsue / Izumo (though I do not know how much that landscape has been changed from the time period), Kanazawa, Toyama, Niigata, Sado, Sakata, Akita, Noshiro
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Okay, so Japan, China, Korea and Vietnam all follow Mahayana Buddhism mixed with local beliefs and philosophies. China, Korea and Vietnam have different syncretic beliefs from each other (China has both Daoism and Confucianism, Korea has Confucianism but not Daoism, unsure what's going on in Vietnam), yet they are are all grouped together as one religion, with the local differences instead being shown through religious mechanics. Japan however, has their local syncretism represented through an entirely different religon instead. Why the special treatment for Japan?
China: Buddhism, Taoism, Folk Religions and Confucianism mixed, okay that's Mahayana

Korea: Muism, Buddhism, Confucianism mixed, okay that's Mahayana

Vietnam: Folk Religions, Buddhism, some Confucianism mixed, okay that's Mahayana

Japan: Kami Worship and Buddhism mixed, somehow that is Shinto.

Makes no sense whatsoever, so inconsistent. Wouldn't make sense to remove Shinto but please give China, Vietnam and Korea their own religions. You can finally name them without thinking for months too! Just call it Sanjiao for example, no issue with Sinocentrism. No valid reason to not do it.
 
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