Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

[Fatihin Kılıcı 1234]

Hi i am New to this tinto talk think because of that if i did somthng wrong forgive me (writing down a difderent topic honestly i cant final where to write) my question is how can i defaatle byzabtium as ottomans why i ask this because like in varna turks didnt ein with quantity or i dont know how is called in english literature but in turkish we call as şebeş war austriajs killer themselves because of getting drunk etc. This little things affected the Ottomans rise Will we get this kind of events or how Will you provide us to win over quality

 

[Atromb]

Will you add an event were Christianity starts to show up in Japan and Korea. South Korea has a lot of Christians there

That's mostly modern conversions in the XX century due to US influence.
Christianity only started to spread in Korea during the late XIX century and the japonese occupation, but by the time of the korean war it was still a fairly minor religion, significant spread only occured during the american backed dictatorship, spread of evangelical christianity was likely a way to culturaly influence south korea.

 

[aleko12]

Only mainland, the rest would be in another Tinto Maps.

Rodger will Pavia start his posts agian on the reviews? He's be missing for months now

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

Lets talk about islands
I want to talk about islands and since we've finally reached the first major archipelagic portion of the map i think its time i try to write my own proposals

I do want to make a very strong argument that i believe individual islands should get a MUCH lower bar for being portrayed than normal land locations. This is due to several reasons. One of the defining criteria and frameworks of having different locations is to portray the geographical consistency and composition of the known geographical world, like how it would be weird to include a mountainous and flat location in the same location like what happens quite often in EU4, with the highly enhanced granularity of Project Caesar you guys ahve clearly been able to improve this significantly. Which goes back to my main point that i would assume and think that one of the biggest criteria for location portrayal is the geographic consistency/continuity or lack thereof it which is why i think ISLANDS especially ones that are not within a strait crossing distance from the mainland should be portrayed even if they are very small and or inconsistent with the apparent minimum land area framework of how you guys give locations like Benevento and Andorra. Islands are probably the MOST DISTINCT geographical contrast you can add to a general area especially if you are portraying army based movements due to the disruptiveness of a massive body of water to army movement and spatial movement in general. It doesn't make sense for an island 100km away from the mainland being included in a mainland location like it is in most older paradox games. Now that i have my case/argument for the devs out of the way i will make some suggestions

Firstly i believe in the Kyushu general region some islands such as Iki Island should be portrayed, it is roughly the same size as the smallest island you guys have given representation too which is Miyakojima and seeing as how far away it is from the mainland it should be given its own separate location

Secondly the location of Minamimatsura or the Goto islands should also be split they are even individually if divided into 2 the eastern portion being renamed to Fukue Island they would still be individually bigger than Miyakojima so i believe this is a good justification.

Thirdly in the location of Nishimatsuura that area ive cordoned off has been incorrectly portrayed as a peninsula which atleast according to google maps is not the case it is a separate island, Its also roughly the same size as Miyakojima

Fourthly i think the island of Shodoshima in the Seto inland sea west of Awaji island should also be portrayed separately it is also similar in size to Miyakojima

Moving onto another region of Japan
I believe the Izu islands should also be portrayed in that order specifically with the biggest island a 1 location and the string of smaller ones as another. They are definitely smaller than Miyakojima but they seem far away enough that i do feel they should be given a location, atleast 1

Another area i do think its kind of strange to give a location to the two islands circled in blue but not the one in red, I also do find it perplexing that these islands in Hokkaido which is much more desolate and underdeveloped are given locations for their separate islands but not in the more populated areas in Honshu and Kyushu. HOWEVER do not mistake this as me advocating for their abolition for i am a location maximalist i merely just think that the areas South and honestly the entire world for that matter should get more granular depictions for islands due to my aforementioned argument about how geographically and spatially distinct they are from the mainland locations they usually get attached too

Finally for the most radical of proposals i do think some of the islands in Ryuku specifically Yonaguni island and Tarama should be portrayed but they are like only around 50-80km so i guess it would definitely be difficult

This also leads me to another proposal specifically for Korea
Firstly i do feel that Ulleung Do should be portrayed as well due to its history and how distinct and far away from the mainland it is its also very small but i do feel if Miyakojima can get portrayed i dont see why Ulleung Do should even if its a little bit smaller

And onto my final but also most important point which is the extremely bizarre contrast between the location density of what are probably the 2 most perfect pair of comparable islands which is Tsushima and Jeju island (Jeju island was also not properly shown in the post but from what i saw its only 1 location which is kinda horrendous). They are both islands in the same area with somewhat simmilar historys to their relation to the mainland, the only problem is Tsushima is HALF THE SIZE or even less of Jeju while having TWICE as many locations, that feels like a massive error in judgement, not to mention Tsushima is far more rugged and has less people. Tushima funnily enough has some of the highest location density with just around 300sqkm while Jeju has 1, MORE THAN 5X LOWER at 1500+. Again this is not an argument that Tsushima is over divided or that it should less locations i just believe Jeju should have just as much love as Tsushima due to how simmilar they are probably around 5-6 locations would be good or at the very least 3

 

[Linbot#6018]

Lets talk about islands
I want to talk about islands and since we've finally reached the first major archipelagic portion of the map i think its time i try to write my own proposals

I do want to make a very strong argument that i believe individual islands should get a MUCH lower bar for being portrayed than normal land locations. This is due to several reasons. One of the defining criteria and frameworks of having different locations is to portray the geographical consistency and composition of the known geographical world, like how it would be weird to include a mountainous and flat location in the same location like what happens quite often in EU4, with the highly enhanced granularity of Project Caesar you guys ahve clearly been able to improve this significantly. Which goes back to my main point that i would assume and think that one of the biggest criteria for location portrayal is the geographic consistency/continuity or lack thereof it which is why i think ISLANDS especially ones that are not within a strait crossing distance from the mainland should be portrayed even if they are very small and or inconsistent with the apparent minimum land area framework of how you guys give locations like Benevento and Andorra. Islands are probably the MOST DISTINCT geographical contrast you can add to a general area especially if you are portraying army based movements due to the disruptiveness of a massive body of water to army movement and spatial movement in general. It doesn't make sense for an island 100km away from the mainland being included in a mainland location like it is in most older paradox games. Now that i have my case/argument for the devs out of the way i will make some suggestions

Firstly i believe in the Kyushu general region some islands such as Iki Island should be portrayed, it is roughly the same size as the smallest island you guys have given representation too which is Miyakojima and seeing as how far away it is from the mainland it should be given its own separate location

Secondly the location of Minamimatsura or the Goto islands should also be split they are even individually if divided into 2 the eastern portion being renamed to Fukue Island they would still be individually bigger than Miyakojima so i believe this is a good justification.

Thirdly in the location of Nishimatsuura that area ive cordoned off has been incorrectly portrayed as a peninsula which atleast according to google maps is not the case it is a separate island, Its also roughly the same size as Miyakojima

Fourthly i think the island of Shodoshima in the Seto inland sea west of Awaji island should also be portrayed separately it is also similar in size to Miyakojima

View attachment 1208185

Moving onto another region of Japan
I believe the Izu islands should also be portrayed in that order specifically with the biggest island a 1 location and the string of smaller ones as another. They are definitely smaller than Miyakojima but they seem far away enough that i do feel they should be given a location, atleast 1
View attachment 1208190


Another area i do think its kind of strange to give a location to the two islands circled in blue but not the one in red, I also do find it perplexing that these islands in Hokkaido which is much more desolate and underdeveloped are given locations for their separate islands but not in the more populated areas in Honshu and Kyushu. HOWEVER do not mistake this as me advocating for their abolition for i am a location maximalist i merely just think that the areas South and honestly the entire world for that matter should get more granular depictions for islands due to my aforementioned argument about how geographically and spatially distinct they are from the mainland locations they usually get attached too

View attachment 1208198
Finally for the most radical of proposals i do think some of the islands in Ryuku specifically Yonaguni island and Tarama should be portrayed but they are like only around 50-80km so i guess it would definitely be difficult

View attachment 1208200

This also leads me to another proposal specifically for Korea
Firstly i do feel that Ulleung Do should be portrayed as well due to its history and how distinct and far away from the mainland it is its also very small but i do feel if Miyakojima can get portrayed i dont see why Ulleung Do should even if its a little bit smallerView attachment 1208201





And onto my final but also most important point which is the extremely bizarre contrast between the location density of what are probably the 2 most perfect pair of comparable islands which is Tsushima and Jeju island (Jeju island was also not properly shown in the post but from what i saw its only 1 location which is kinda horrendous). They are both islands in the same area with somewhat simmilar historys to their relation to the mainland, the only problem is Tsushima is HALF THE SIZE or even less of Jeju while having TWICE as many locations, that feels like a massive error in judgement, not to mention Tsushima is far more rugged and has less people. Tushima funnily enough has some of the highest location density with just around 300sqkm while Jeju has 1 MORE THAN 5X LOWER at 1500+. Again this is not an argument that Tsushima is over divided or that it should less locations i just believe Jeju should have just as much love as Tsushima due to how simmilar they are probably around 5-6 locations would be good or at the very least 3

Maybe Jeju could get one location for the mountainous interior and two for the coast? I know the interior was a stronghold of Communist guerrillas in the 1940s and 1950s, which is out of the timeframe but does provide an example that illuminates how the island's geography behaves in these kinds of situations.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Jeju was also known to have two lords with different titles each ruling half of the island

Tamna - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[wowlock]

Will Samurai have a unique unit type compared to levies you get? And will there be buildings for using Ronin to keep the control of the lands up for the clans and such? I assume they would be quite involved with location control.

 

[Mef]

Rodger will Pavia start his posts agian on the reviews? He's be missing for months now

Pavía said that he will be back from his October vacation after 4 Tinto Maps. Japan was the 4th one, so he should be back on Friday.

 

[GameBoi]

Lets talk about islands
I want to talk about islands and since we've finally reached the first major archipelagic portion of the map i think its time i try to write my own proposals

I do want to make a very strong argument that i believe individual islands should get a MUCH lower bar for being portrayed than normal land locations. This is due to several reasons. One of the defining criteria and frameworks of having different locations is to portray the geographical consistency and composition of the known geographical world, like how it would be weird to include a mountainous and flat location in the same location like what happens quite often in EU4, with the highly enhanced granularity of Project Caesar you guys ahve clearly been able to improve this significantly. Which goes back to my main point that i would assume and think that one of the biggest criteria for location portrayal is the geographic consistency/continuity or lack thereof it which is why i think ISLANDS especially ones that are not within a strait crossing distance from the mainland should be portrayed even if they are very small and or inconsistent with the apparent minimum land area framework of how you guys give locations like Benevento and Andorra. Islands are probably the MOST DISTINCT geographical contrast you can add to a general area especially if you are portraying army based movements due to the disruptiveness of a massive body of water to army movement and spatial movement in general. It doesn't make sense for an island 100km away from the mainland being included in a mainland location like it is in most older paradox games. Now that i have my case/argument for the devs out of the way i will make some suggestions

Firstly i believe in the Kyushu general region some islands such as Iki Island should be portrayed, it is roughly the same size as the smallest island you guys have given representation too which is Miyakojima and seeing as how far away it is from the mainland it should be given its own separate location

Secondly the location of Minamimatsura or the Goto islands should also be split they are even individually if divided into 2 the eastern portion being renamed to Fukue Island they would still be individually bigger than Miyakojima so i believe this is a good justification.

Thirdly in the location of Nishimatsuura that area ive cordoned off has been incorrectly portrayed as a peninsula which atleast according to google maps is not the case it is a separate island, Its also roughly the same size as Miyakojima

Fourthly i think the island of Shodoshima in the Seto inland sea west of Awaji island should also be portrayed separately it is also similar in size to Miyakojima

View attachment 1208185

Moving onto another region of Japan
I believe the Izu islands should also be portrayed in that order specifically with the biggest island a 1 location and the string of smaller ones as another. They are definitely smaller than Miyakojima but they seem far away enough that i do feel they should be given a location, atleast 1
View attachment 1208190


Another area i do think its kind of strange to give a location to the two islands circled in blue but not the one in red, I also do find it perplexing that these islands in Hokkaido which is much more desolate and underdeveloped are given locations for their separate islands but not in the more populated areas in Honshu and Kyushu. HOWEVER do not mistake this as me advocating for their abolition for i am a location maximalist i merely just think that the areas South and honestly the entire world for that matter should get more granular depictions for islands due to my aforementioned argument about how geographically and spatially distinct they are from the mainland locations they usually get attached too

View attachment 1208198
Finally for the most radical of proposals i do think some of the islands in Ryuku specifically Yonaguni island and Tarama should be portrayed but they are like only around 50-80km so i guess it would definitely be difficult

View attachment 1208200

This also leads me to another proposal specifically for Korea
Firstly i do feel that Ulleung Do should be portrayed as well due to its history and how distinct and far away from the mainland it is its also very small but i do feel if Miyakojima can get portrayed i dont see why Ulleung Do should even if its a little bit smallerView attachment 1208201





And onto my final but also most important point which is the extremely bizarre contrast between the location density of what are probably the 2 most perfect pair of comparable islands which is Tsushima and Jeju island (Jeju island was also not properly shown in the post but from what i saw its only 1 location which is kinda horrendous). They are both islands in the same area with somewhat simmilar historys to their relation to the mainland, the only problem is Tsushima is HALF THE SIZE or even less of Jeju while having TWICE as many locations, that feels like a massive error in judgement, not to mention Tsushima is far more rugged and has less people. Tushima funnily enough has some of the highest location density with just around 300sqkm while Jeju has 1 MORE THAN 5X LOWER at 1500+. Again this is not an argument that Tsushima is over divided or that it should less locations i just believe Jeju should have just as much love as Tsushima due to how simmilar they are probably around 5-6 locations would be good or at the very least 3

Yeah it's strange how Rishiri and Habomai got their own locations vs. some of the Ryukyus. It even looks like Etorofu got FOUR for a single Kuril island lmao.

Honestly I'd go a bit further in the Ryukyus and say Okinoerabu, Kume, and maybe Yoron, Ie, and Kikai islands should get a location. In the Yaeyamas they could maybe add Hateruma on top of what you suggested. Kumejima iirc was where Chinese scholars landed to Sinicize/help develop/colonize the Ryukyuan kingdom at the time.

The Daito islands to the east of Okinawa also seem to have been entirely forgotten.

 

[jhonny_cooked]

Lets talk about islands
I want to talk about islands and since we've finally reached the first major archipelagic portion of the map i think its time i try to write my own proposals

I do want to make a very strong argument that i believe individual islands should get a MUCH lower bar for being portrayed than normal land locations. This is due to several reasons. One of the defining criteria and frameworks of having different locations is to portray the geographical consistency and composition of the known geographical world, like how it would be weird to include a mountainous and flat location in the same location like what happens quite often in EU4, with the highly enhanced granularity of Project Caesar you guys ahve clearly been able to improve this significantly. Which goes back to my main point that i would assume and think that one of the biggest criteria for location portrayal is the geographic consistency/continuity or lack thereof it which is why i think ISLANDS especially ones that are not within a strait crossing distance from the mainland should be portrayed even if they are very small and or inconsistent with the apparent minimum land area framework of how you guys give locations like Benevento and Andorra. Islands are probably the MOST DISTINCT geographical contrast you can add to a general area especially if you are portraying army based movements due to the disruptiveness of a massive body of water to army movement and spatial movement in general. It doesn't make sense for an island 100km away from the mainland being included in a mainland location like it is in most older paradox games. Now that i have my case/argument for the devs out of the way i will make some suggestions

Firstly i believe in the Kyushu general region some islands such as Iki Island should be portrayed, it is roughly the same size as the smallest island you guys have given representation too which is Miyakojima and seeing as how far away it is from the mainland it should be given its own separate location

Secondly the location of Minamimatsura or the Goto islands should also be split they are even individually if divided into 2 the eastern portion being renamed to Fukue Island they would still be individually bigger than Miyakojima so i believe this is a good justification.

Thirdly in the location of Nishimatsuura that area ive cordoned off has been incorrectly portrayed as a peninsula which atleast according to google maps is not the case it is a separate island, Its also roughly the same size as Miyakojima

Fourthly i think the island of Shodoshima in the Seto inland sea west of Awaji island should also be portrayed separately it is also similar in size to Miyakojima

View attachment 1208185

Moving onto another region of Japan
I believe the Izu islands should also be portrayed in that order specifically with the biggest island a 1 location and the string of smaller ones as another. They are definitely smaller than Miyakojima but they seem far away enough that i do feel they should be given a location, atleast 1
View attachment 1208190


Another area i do think its kind of strange to give a location to the two islands circled in blue but not the one in red, I also do find it perplexing that these islands in Hokkaido which is much more desolate and underdeveloped are given locations for their separate islands but not in the more populated areas in Honshu and Kyushu. HOWEVER do not mistake this as me advocating for their abolition for i am a location maximalist i merely just think that the areas South and honestly the entire world for that matter should get more granular depictions for islands due to my aforementioned argument about how geographically and spatially distinct they are from the mainland locations they usually get attached too

View attachment 1208198
Finally for the most radical of proposals i do think some of the islands in Ryuku specifically Yonaguni island and Tarama should be portrayed but they are like only around 50-80km so i guess it would definitely be difficult

View attachment 1208200

This also leads me to another proposal specifically for Korea
Firstly i do feel that Ulleung Do should be portrayed as well due to its history and how distinct and far away from the mainland it is its also very small but i do feel if Miyakojima can get portrayed i dont see why Ulleung Do should even if its a little bit smallerView attachment 1208201





And onto my final but also most important point which is the extremely bizarre contrast between the location density of what are probably the 2 most perfect pair of comparable islands which is Tsushima and Jeju island (Jeju island was also not properly shown in the post but from what i saw its only 1 location which is kinda horrendous). They are both islands in the same area with somewhat simmilar historys to their relation to the mainland, the only problem is Tsushima is HALF THE SIZE or even less of Jeju while having TWICE as many locations, that feels like a massive error in judgement, not to mention Tsushima is far more rugged and has less people. Tushima funnily enough has some of the highest location density with just around 300sqkm while Jeju has 1 MORE THAN 5X LOWER at 1500+. Again this is not an argument that Tsushima is over divided or that it should less locations i just believe Jeju should have just as much love as Tsushima due to how simmilar they are probably around 5-6 locations would be good or at the very least 3

I was just about to post my very first comment (forgive me if I am making any mistakes) just to point out the inconsistencies with how islands are being represented in this part only for you to do most of the heavy lifting for me. Thank you.

To add onto this, the case for Iki island as a separate location is especially strong since it was its own province since the 7th century until the abolition of the han system.

I think the Izu islands should be two locations, one location for the northern six (of the traditional seven) Izu Islands, and another for Hachijo and Aogashima further south. It should also be noted today Hachijo island has its own distinct language that developed from Eastern Old Japanese though idk if this distinction would have developed by the time Project Caesar takes place. Lastly for good measure, the Ogasawara Islands should be their own uncolonised location.

Ditto on Jeju at least being split into two locations, representation for Ulleung island, and maybe more locations in the Ryukyus.

 

[Roger Corominas]

In that case if you do that then the Dynasty tag would be the dynasty of the Emperor and not the Daimyo correct? I always found it weird in EU4 you could create the empire of Japan but it would stay as the clans last name. Is there an option to create a new “shogunate” “empire” and restore the old imperial dynasty name or decide to keep the name of the clan and make a new “dynasty”? Or for that would you have to win as the separate imperial factions?

The imperial courts already have the imperial dynasty in them.

 

[Ispil]

The imperial courts already have the imperial dynasty in them.

While I have your attention, quick question: do the characters of those clan countries have any presence in the shogunate as characters? Such as, say, for appointing to your cabinet, or as generals?

 

[Roger Corominas]

two questions:

1: Are the Sanada Clan one of the smaller tags that doesn't have land at the start?

2: Will there be any mechanics in Shinto-Buddhism to handle the religious disunity between the different branches of Pure Land Buddhism. The Tendai Lotus School, Jodo Shu & Jodo Shinshu are the most famous but there was at least a dozen different branches that had very tense relationships with eachother at this time.

1. No, the Sanada are not present at start
2. Yes, specifically Jodo Shinshu has quite a bit of content related to the ikko-ikki

 

[Roger Corominas]

any content on the Kirishitan converts in southern Japan, evangelized by Portuguese traders and missionaries?

Yes

 

[Roger Corominas]

Correct me if I'm wrong but does it mean that players will be able to:

1. play as "Japan" (Shogun) and have various clans and two imperial courts controlled by AI inside their country to deal with
2. play as one of the imperial courts while the AI will take control of the entire state and clans
3. play as one of the clans while the AI will control state and both imperial courts?

If so, then it's really mindblowing how much has changed and how much you've prepared for us. This will be your magnum opus, guys.

Yes, it's exactly as you say.

 

[Roger Corominas]

If you decided on using macrons in romanization, you're missing one in "Nanpo" Sea (and presumably also the islands)

Thank you, it must have slipped. Fixed.

 

[Roger Corominas]

I see a lot of people asking if the ability to give land to the extraterritorial daimyos can be used for other extraterritorial countries (i.e. other building based countries), since the TT about country types made it clear that extraterritorial countries cannot own land. I think there may be some misunderstanding here. The devs can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is still the case. I don't think the daimyos will remain extraterritorial building based countries once they own land, I believe they're just being changed into regular countries either by an event or some other scripted content (thus something that modders could easily do too). Johan already stated in that earlier TT that country types can be changed. I asked him about this in the country type TT, I'll post my question and his response from that thread below.

Yes, the clans will get land and turn into normal countries via script.

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

I was just about to post my very first comment (forgive me if I am making any mistakes) just to point out the inconsistencies with how islands are being represented in this part only for you to do most of the heavy lifting for me. Thank you.

To add onto this, the case for Iki island as a separate location is especially strong since it was its own province since the 7th century until the abolition of the han system.

I think the Izu islands should be two locations, one location for the northern six (of the traditional seven) Izu Islands, and another for Hachijo and Aogashima further south. It should also be noted today Hachijo island has its own distinct language that developed from Eastern Old Japanese though idk if this distinction would have developed by the time Project Caesar takes place. Lastly for good measure, the Ogasawara Islands should be their own uncolonised location.

Ditto on Jeju at least being split into two locations, representation for Ulleung island, and maybe more locations in the Ryukyus.

I also do want to make some additional suggestions now in regards to Korea's southern archipelago



A must have island is the No.3 of Jido island which is more than twice the size of miyakojima and most of the other islands portrayed

There is also no.4 of the Goheung Peninsula which i think is distinctively and geographically distinct enough to have its own location

5 and 6 and also 2 i think are also must haves 5 and 6 are Namhae island and Geoje Island respectively. 2 is the southern portion of a mini archipelago called the Sinan islands (although doesent include the main titular island)

The others like 1, 7 and 8 are a double sided peninsula, Sinan Island Ahae Eup island

Especially for the first ones like Jindo and Namhae there is immense historical significance for these islands as there are wehre the legendary admiral Yi destroyed Japan in the Imjin war so i think it would be quite important and necessary for them to be portrayed

 

[matfer13]

I suppose you guys already did the mechanics for Buddhism but cosidering Japan has its own type of Buddhism wouldn't it make more sense to also separate the Chinese one from the Korean and Vietnamese one?(or even split it totally for each country)

 

[Roger Corominas]

Update: I forgot that Friday 1st is bank holiday, so there will not be any Tinto Maps this week. I have edited the info in the main post, sorry for that.