Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

[zeruosi]

awesome, though a couple of extra points as a korean myself i want to add:

Tamla if divided into 3, should have the north south and *center* as its 3 locations to better represent the fact that dislodging someone resisting in hanlasan has historically been a pain, and has happened quite a bit. There should be a event decently soon after game start of the revolt over tamla falling back under full goyro control around the mid 1350's so it should be important. The 3 goods of the provence should reflect the 3 historical goods of the reigion, fruits, *horses*, and fish respectivly. having horses in the mountains might be the best idea? since fish and fruit were in the lowlands, and techically most of the mountenside was more highlands then harsh mountains.
While Tamla was de jure fully intergrated into korea by the 12th century, it was de facto a vassel state up to the mid 14th century. so yes, it should be a vassel state with a unique though in same culture group as korean proper.
Ullung, i feel might benefit from having a relesable tag and a seperate cultrue to korea proper? idk. at any rate, should exist on the map. honestly if east asia post 15th centrury hadn't frozen up on trade ullung might have become a decently important middle resting point in east sea/sea of japan trading?

speaking of the sea of japan issue... at least locally, and historically, it HAS been known more as the sea of korea(china/japan) or east sea (china/korea), but then again, familiarity. I wonder if it could be shown as east sea if playing as the sinosphere but sea of japan as japan and non eastern countries? for flavor.

there is one more elephant in the room, and that is tsushima. before the imjin war, tsushima was technically running double time as a vassel of sorts to *both* the japanese and koreans and mediating trade between the two. would be interesting if this is modeled.

To add, China refers to the Sea of Japan as the Whale Sea rather than the East China Sea. The East China Sea has two meanings, one referring to all the oceans east of China's coastline. Another type is the sea area south of the Yellow Sea (West Korean Sea), north of the South China Sea, and west of the Ryukyu Islands

 

[zeruosi]

I like your post, but all these maps with colors that are sometimes hard to see and those separate lists of names are a bit unwieldy, so I decided to put your suggestion into one big labeled map which hopefully makes it easier to digest:
View attachment 1208620
I also attached a version with black background.

Edit: Just noticed I forgot to label Sangju, can't really be bothered to upload a fix for just one small mistake though.

Very good job, I couldn't bear to read it when I saw his post in the middle.

 

[ibvfteh]

Sorry, but this is painfully small sizes for locations

 

[wenka16]

Why "medicaments" are a raw material? Shouldn't it be herbs or some other material name used in the manufacturing of these obviously transformed good? It's like making "weapons" or "glass" a raw good.

In the medieval period the medicine making process was down to popular knowledge of herbs and spices. Later we have the knowledge of the Islamic world and the Renaissance brought to medicine making, including the use of that famous predecessor of chemistry (yeah: alchemy), which was famous for using a myriad of goods, including gold and silver salts for example (not that any of it was more effective, but mainly more dangerous!).

Anyways, "medicaments" should be a good produced by an apothecary building, later a hospital perhaps, and the "herbs" good can maybe used up raw and in a production method along with some others like spices, mineral goods or add some opium to the raw materials mix, since there is evidence of its use since the neolithic.

I'm not way an expert on medieval or early modern medicine manufacturing, just a physician comfortably practicing in the 21st century who got this pet peeve with it being a raw resource and not a manufactured one.

Really hope you will change it in the final game!

 

[Maxipuchi]

Why "medicaments" are a raw material? Shouldn't it be herbs or some other material name used in the manufacturing of these obviously transformed good? It's like making "weapons" or "glass" a raw good.

In the medieval period the medicine making process was down to popular knowledge of herbs and spices. Later we have the knowledge of the Islamic world and the Renaissance brought to medicine making, including the use of that famous predecessor of chemistry (yeah: alchemy), which was famous for using a myriad of goods, including gold and silver salts for example (not that any of it was more effective, but mainly more dangerous!).

Anyways, "medicaments" should be a good produced by an apothecary building, later a hospital perhaps, and the "herbs" good can maybe used up raw and in a production method along with some others like spices, mineral goods or add some opium to the raw materials mix, since there is evidence of its use since the neolithic.

I'm not way an expert on medieval or early modern medicine manufacturing, just a physician comfortably practicing in the 21st century who got this pet peeve with it being a raw resource and not a manufactured one.

Really hope you will change it in the final game!

Medicaments does not refer to medicine, it refers to raw materials, mostly plants, with medicinal or psychoactive properties, things such as Aloe, Cannabis, Myrrh, Opium Poppy, Lingzhi, Psilocybin Mushrooms, etc.

There may be a manufactured good called "medicine" or "medical drugs" or something that is produced by using medicaments, though one hasn't been revealed yet.

 

[Galaxy32]

Update: I forgot that Friday 1st is bank holiday, so there will not be any Tinto Maps this week. I have edited the info in the main post, sorry for that.

 

[EU3NOOB]

@Roger Corominas Is it possible to have the Northern and Southern Courts' full territorial extent to be shown as a filter (same for other extraterritorial tags, like the Japanese clans), regardless of the overlap?

Seems a bit awkward that I can't see the full extent of my country at a glance just because of said overlap of territory.

 

[yusufho]

there used to be some muslim population in korea，please add them
resource：https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Korea
“
According to local Korean accounts, Muslims arrived in the peninsula in the year 1024 in the Goryeo kingdom, a group of some 100 Muslims, including Hasan Raza, came in September of the 15th year of Hyeonjong of Goryeo and another group of 100 Muslim merchants came the following year.[11]

Trading relations between the Islamic world and the Korean peninsula continued with the succeeding kingdom of Goryeo through to the 15th century. As a result, a number of Muslim traders from the Near East and Central Asia settled down in Korea and established families there. Some Muslim Hui people from China also appear to have lived in the Goryeo kingdom.[12]

With the Mongol armies came the so-called Saengmogin (Chinese: 色目人), this group consisted of Muslims from Central Asia. In the Mongol social order, Saengmogin occupied a position just below the Mongols themselves, and exerted a great deal of influence within the Yuan dynasty.

The first named Muslim of Korean provenance, Ramadan ibn Alauddin, died in 1349.

One of those Central Asian immigrants to Korea originally came to Korea as an aide to a Mongol princess who had been sent to marry King Chungnyeol of Goryeo. Goryeo documents say that his original name was Samga but, after he decided to make Korea his permanent home, the king bestowed on him the Korean name of Jang Sunnyong. Jang married a Korean and became the founding ancestor of the Deoksu Jang clan. His clan produced many high officials and respected Confucian scholars over the centuries. Twenty-five generations later, around 30,000 Koreans look back to Jang Sunnyong as the grandfather of their clan: the Jang clan, with its seat at Toksu village.[3]

The same is true of the descendants of another Central Asian who settled down in Korea. A Central Asian named Seol Son fled to Korea when the Red Turban Rebellion erupted near the end of the Mongol's Yuan dynasty. He, too, married a Korean, originating a lineage called the Gyeongju Seol that claims at least 2,000 members in Korea.[4]
”

 

[EasterEgg3323]

there used to be some muslim population in korea，please add them
resource：https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Korea
“
According to local Korean accounts, Muslims arrived in the peninsula in the year 1024 in the Goryeo kingdom, a group of some 100 Muslims, including Hasan Raza, came in September of the 15th year of Hyeonjong of Goryeo and another group of 100 Muslim merchants came the following year.[11]

Trading relations between the Islamic world and the Korean peninsula continued with the succeeding kingdom of Goryeo through to the 15th century. As a result, a number of Muslim traders from the Near East and Central Asia settled down in Korea and established families there. Some Muslim Hui people from China also appear to have lived in the Goryeo kingdom.[12]

With the Mongol armies came the so-called Saengmogin (Chinese: 色目人), this group consisted of Muslims from Central Asia. In the Mongol social order, Saengmogin occupied a position just below the Mongols themselves, and exerted a great deal of influence within the Yuan dynasty.

The first named Muslim of Korean provenance, Ramadan ibn Alauddin, died in 1349.

One of those Central Asian immigrants to Korea originally came to Korea as an aide to a Mongol princess who had been sent to marry King Chungnyeol of Goryeo. Goryeo documents say that his original name was Samga but, after he decided to make Korea his permanent home, the king bestowed on him the Korean name of Jang Sunnyong. Jang married a Korean and became the founding ancestor of the Deoksu Jang clan. His clan produced many high officials and respected Confucian scholars over the centuries. Twenty-five generations later, around 30,000 Koreans look back to Jang Sunnyong as the grandfather of their clan: the Jang clan, with its seat at Toksu village.[3]

The same is true of the descendants of another Central Asian who settled down in Korea. A Central Asian named Seol Son fled to Korea when the Red Turban Rebellion erupted near the end of the Mongol's Yuan dynasty. He, too, married a Korean, originating a lineage called the Gyeongju Seol that claims at least 2,000 members in Korea.[4]
”

This is true, and there are records of it.
Records of their presence start almost from the 9th century.

The Islamic community seems to have continued to exist without any specific conflict, and there doesn't seem to have been any other discrimination (Some actually held government positions and others apparently just didn't much care. After all, Korea is not a very religious society to begin with), until early in the Joseon Dynasty, when King Sejong prohibited wearing Islamic clothing to assimilate the community.

Records from the 9th year of King Sejong (1427)

Yejo (禮曹) asks King Sejong to abolish Islamic dress

"The Muslims are dressed differently from the rest of us, so that everyone sees them and is ashamed to marry them because they are not our people. Since they are already people of our country, they will naturally marry if they do not do anything differently in accordance with our country's customs. It is right that we abolish the ritual of praying at the grand assembly." All of them complied.

If we look at this record, it appears that the Muslim people kept the Islamic dress until that time (the time of King Sejong), and that they kept the Islamic dress and the ritual of praying at the Grand Assembly (when all the courtiers gathered to announce the king).

And even after that, there wasn't any significant conflict, and it seems to have been simply integrated into the Korean ethnic majority, as it was mentioned less and less in the records and then disappeared.

They were there anyway, and they're still there at this point in time.

 

[NhanTNT]

Only mainland, the rest would be in another Tinto Maps.

When that second happens i would be complaining about every location in Vietnam...

 

[Regaccio]

As some have already said, I would suggest that Japan's total population is too high for 1337. In Japan to 1600, William Wayne Farris estimates the Japanese population in 1280 at approximately six million, and in 1450 about ten million. The paragraph with these estimates includes more interesting information as well. (Ch. 6 "The Revival of Growth", p.141)

During 1280–1450, Japan’s population began to grow again. The number of Japan’s inhabitants increased by about sixty-seven percent, from around six million to more than ten million. Most of the growth took place in central and western Japan where urbanization expanded by leaps and bounds. At least fifty new towns and cities sprang up, totaling about 400,000 residents. Kyoto was the largest at 200,000, but seven others contained more than 15,000 people. Hakata (40,000), Tennòji (later Osaka, 30,000), Òtsu (20,000), Anotsu (15,000), and Nara (9,000) bustled with activity. Altogether, persons residing in towns and cities represented at least four percent of the augmented population, making Japan one of the most urbanized areas in the world.

The start date of 1337 places us in the middle of this "return to growth", but the 10,000,000 number is the endpoint, and is still over a hundred years out. If we assume linear growth from 1280 to 1450 with the 6m and 10m figures on either end, the Japanese population should be around 7.33 million (repeating, of course). Warfare in the Nanbokuchou and Sengoku periods obviously blunted this population growth some, and according to the same book famines caused by rampaging/looting armies were very common.

A major reason why Japan's population grew so fast during this period was improving agriculture. Specifically, this included the introduction of Champa rice, combined with a double-cropping scheme that allowed peasants to farm both a rice paddy and a dry field at the same time. However, this technique was not effective in all of Japan, so growth was not even! About this double-cropping, Farris says: (p.145)

[...] this potentially critical development was restricted to certain types of land in western and central Japan because farmers had to wait for the paddy to dry completely before beginning a second planting. Where land was low lying or swampy, as it was in much of eastern Honshu, double cropping was impossible. So the agrarian development of eastern Honshu—potentially a rich region—lagged behind that of western Japan.

So not only is this a period of lower population but rapid growth, the growth is mainly happening in western and central Japan, not yet in eastern Honshu.

The outlier to the "lower population" thing is Kyoto. Kyoto was a massive city (by Japanese standards of the time...) and by far the biggest population center in the country. As it stands the location doesn't quite stand head-and-shoulders above everywhere else as much as it should, in terms of raw numbers. As cited from Farris earlier it should probably have closer to 200,000 residents - that's the city alone. On the other hand, its infrastructure should be absolutely dreadful: Farris states that Kyotoites in 1337 were still using the same sewage ditches dug in the ninth century. And while the massive plague-waves that suppressed Japan's population for centuries had since abated, Kyoto continued to have its population decimated by plague. This suggests a bustling urban center with a high mortality rate, but a higher rate of new migrants leading to the total pop growing anyway.

Basically, I would suggest the following:

• Japan's population should generally be lower, especially in eastern Honshu. More around 7 million. Even the valley where modern-day Tokyo sits, which you might think of as populous and fertile, was not especially developed at this time. If vegetation changes are implemented, these should probably not even be "Farmland" at game start and only develop into that later.
• However, the land across the islands should be good enough to support a population well above what exists at the start. Japan should be an underpopulated land with a lot of potential for growth, if the landowners develop it properly. Cut the population, but not the population capacity.
• On the other hand, this is a period of massive urbanization in Japan. Since we don't have a towns-and-cities mapmode picture, I can't tell how many pops are living in urban centers, but if it turns out around 4% in a typical game by 1450 then that's good. The populated cities should be in central and western Japan in 1337, not the east.
• Specifically, Hakata seems like its population is too low. This was an important port for overseas trade at the time and Japan's second most populous city. It appears to have less population than other adjacent provinces, so I'd double-check that one.
• Kyoto should be another outlier here, and have more population rather than less. But its infrastructure should be very poor and it should be a demographic death trap.

A few other random things I noticed:

• Osaka and Nara are important cities, but the locations directly south of them dwarf them in population. Is this really accurate, the locations without the cities are much bigger than the ones with the cities, or were the numbers mixed up, or am I mixing up where the cities should be?
• Central Japan had been heavily deforested centuries ago by this point. The shogunate shipped timbers to the capital all the way from Shikoku and the eastern mountains (Farris p.147). Thus I don't think those provinces in the Kinai should have lumber. Japan should probably have to be careful with its timber resources in general, deforestation was a big potential problem.

 

[Mef]

• Central Japan had been heavily deforested centuries ago by this point. The shogunate shipped timbers to the capital all the way from Shikoku and the eastern mountains (Farris p.147). Thus I don't think those provinces in the Kinai should have lumber. Japan should probably have to be careful with its timber resources in general, deforestation was a big potential problem.

Great post! This inspired me to make a vegetation suggestion map for Japan.
The main goal was to break up that monolithic dense forest and give Japan more pockets of good farmland that allowed it to grow to a fairly large population. I also think it would simply be more fun to play in than if the majority of locations were just forest as if it was the Siberian wilds.
I'm certainly not an expert on the topic and haven't done extensive historical research, so most of this is based on modern tree cover, soil suitability (this one is tricky because eastern Honshu has lots of good soil that wasn't really developed at this time) and the book mentioned in the quoted post.
I didn't do Hokkaido since there isn't really much going on there in this time period.

 

[Mef]

I also made a vegetation map for Korea, a similar introduction to the map above applies.
I think the current vegetation doesn't do a good job of representing the agricultural potential of the south-west, historically the most populous region of Korea.

 

[Vaju]

Small resolution of daimyos' map. I can't see many titles. Have you added all of these clans yet?

Spoiler: List of clans

 

[Vaju]

Is this extraterritorial countries something that only Japan has? It's the first time mentioned, right? It offers a very cool base to export via modding to other latitudes, like Arab and Kurd clans/tribes in Middle East.

Scottish and maori clans too.

 

[evilon]

Looks very nice, but could you share your findings with the Victoria team please?

I came here taking a break from a Japan game in V3, and apparently they got their RGO's very confused there:
No iron in Chugoku, no lumber in Kyushu, etc.
Not to mention they have a corporation that is unlocked (luckily with other options) by building 3(?) Coal mines in Chugoku, and there's no coal RGO there.

 

[korandder]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask but are we getting another Tinto Maps today or is it delayed due to the floods in Spain?

 

[Mef]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask but are we getting another Tinto Maps today or is it delayed due to the floods in Spain?

No thread today due to All Saint's Day.

 

[Warpath]

it be interesting if they not only had the extraterritorial clans but also made the smaller clans that didnt fit the criterial of extraterritorial as building based countries

 

[jkaten]

Isn't the Nanboku-Cho an ongoing civil war at the start date? Why is the Southern Court just an extraterritorial tag and not a separate landed tag from the Ashikaga Shogunate the same way that Edward Balliol's occupied territories were shown for Scotland?