Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

[Kimudena]

France: I'm supposed to be the main character, but how come he has a smaller area and yet more locations than me?

1. modern France have a bigger size because of French Guiana
2. size doesn't matter xD

 

[WorrapsnehtroN2707]

Noto Peninsula is rich in low mountains, especially in the tip of the peninsula, so I think hill is suitable for terrain in there.
Also, is there any system which represent wetlands smaller than location? Edo was wetland before developing.

 

[Cruci]

In light of the newly-revealed language system, I will reitarate here what I said in the Tinto Talks thread.

If the liturgical language represents the language of scholarship, then Chinese should be the liturgical language of Korea, Japan, and Vietnam. Soon after the start of the game, it would also be adopted by Chuuzan on Okinawa. In all of these states, except perhaps the Ryukyus, Classical Chinese remained the language of formal writing and education until the 19th century. It was also the language employed by the Buddhist clergy, and through which Buddhist texts were disseminated throughout the area.

 

[Clyde Wallach]

Ōsaka should be called Naniwa.

 

[FTPlayz]

While I like what I see, why isn't there a large Mahayana minority in Japan? Yes, even though "Shinto" is syncretized in the game, there were clear influences of Confucianism and Taoist, as some at the time attempted to keep their distinction.

 

[Linbot#6018]

While I like what I see, why isn't there a large Mahayana minority in Japan? Yes, even though "Shinto" is syncretized in the game, there were clear influences of Confucianism and Taoist, as some at the time attempted to keep their distinction.

As far as I can tell, "Shinto" in the game is actually defined as "what it is that Japanese religion is" and therefore embodies both "actual" "Shintou", Buddhism, and every other longstanding religious tradition in Japan.

 

[Serbon333]

What happened to Soybeans? I see them in the Reference Materials for the Map Thread https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/reference-materials-for-the-map-thread.1675562/ , but I don't see them anywhere on the maps?

 

[itoma_aikon]

Hachiro Lagoon in Akita Prefecture was a lake in this period.Reclamation began in the late Edo period, and it was only after World War II that it became what it is today.

天保国絵図出羽国秋田

Also, I don't think the east side of Kasumigaura in Ibaraki Prefecture is drawn.

 

[Wildrake]

Lets talk about islands
I want to talk about islands and since we've finally reached the first major archipelagic portion of the map i think its time i try to write my own proposals

I do want to make a very strong argument that i believe individual islands should get a MUCH lower bar for being portrayed than normal land locations. This is due to several reasons. One of the defining criteria and frameworks of having different locations is to portray the geographical consistency and composition of the known geographical world, like how it would be weird to include a mountainous and flat location in the same location like what happens quite often in EU4, with the highly enhanced granularity of Project Caesar you guys ahve clearly been able to improve this significantly. Which goes back to my main point that i would assume and think that one of the biggest criteria for location portrayal is the geographic consistency/continuity or lack thereof it which is why i think ISLANDS especially ones that are not within a strait crossing distance from the mainland should be portrayed even if they are very small and or inconsistent with the apparent minimum land area framework of how you guys give locations like Benevento and Andorra. Islands are probably the MOST DISTINCT geographical contrast you can add to a general area especially if you are portraying army based movements due to the disruptiveness of a massive body of water to army movement and spatial movement in general. It doesn't make sense for an island 100km away from the mainland being included in a mainland location like it is in most older paradox games. Now that i have my case/argument for the devs out of the way i will make some suggestions

Firstly i believe in the Kyushu general region some islands such as Iki Island should be portrayed, it is roughly the same size as the smallest island you guys have given representation too which is Miyakojima and seeing as how far away it is from the mainland it should be given its own separate location

Secondly the location of Minamimatsura or the Goto islands should also be split they are even individually if divided into 2 the eastern portion being renamed to Fukue Island they would still be individually bigger than Miyakojima so i believe this is a good justification.

Thirdly in the location of Nishimatsuura that area ive cordoned off has been incorrectly portrayed as a peninsula which atleast according to google maps is not the case it is a separate island, Its also roughly the same size as Miyakojima

Fourthly i think the island of Shodoshima in the Seto inland sea west of Awaji island should also be portrayed separately it is also similar in size to Miyakojima

View attachment 1208185

Moving onto another region of Japan
I believe the Izu islands should also be portrayed in that order specifically with the biggest island a 1 location and the string of smaller ones as another. They are definitely smaller than Miyakojima but they seem far away enough that i do feel they should be given a location, atleast 1
View attachment 1208190


Another area i do think its kind of strange to give a location to the two islands circled in blue but not the one in red, I also do find it perplexing that these islands in Hokkaido which is much more desolate and underdeveloped are given locations for their separate islands but not in the more populated areas in Honshu and Kyushu. HOWEVER do not mistake this as me advocating for their abolition for i am a location maximalist i merely just think that the areas South and honestly the entire world for that matter should get more granular depictions for islands due to my aforementioned argument about how geographically and spatially distinct they are from the mainland locations they usually get attached too

View attachment 1208198
Finally for the most radical of proposals i do think some of the islands in Ryuku specifically Yonaguni island and Tarama should be portrayed but they are like only around 50-80km so i guess it would definitely be difficult

View attachment 1208200

This also leads me to another proposal specifically for Korea
Firstly i do feel that Ulleung Do should be portrayed as well due to its history and how distinct and far away from the mainland it is its also very small but i do feel if Miyakojima can get portrayed i dont see why Ulleung Do should even if its a little bit smallerView attachment 1208201





And onto my final but also most important point which is the extremely bizarre contrast between the location density of what are probably the 2 most perfect pair of comparable islands which is Tsushima and Jeju island (Jeju island was also not properly shown in the post but from what i saw its only 1 location which is kinda horrendous). They are both islands in the same area with somewhat simmilar historys to their relation to the mainland, the only problem is Tsushima is HALF THE SIZE or even less of Jeju while having TWICE as many locations, that feels like a massive error in judgement, not to mention Tsushima is far more rugged and has less people. Tushima funnily enough has some of the highest location density with just around 300sqkm while Jeju has 1, MORE THAN 5X LOWER at 1500+. Again this is not an argument that Tsushima is over divided or that it should less locations i just believe Jeju should have just as much love as Tsushima due to how simmilar they are probably around 5-6 locations would be good or at the very least 3

Japan already has the highest province density in the world, far exceeding even HRE or North Italy

 

[Freshplayer]

A lot of the Koreans in Liaodong were Korean defectors who sided with the Yuan. The most famous of these were the Hong clan in Liaoyang, headed by Hong Pok-wŏn and his descendents, most infamously Hong Ta-gu.
View attachment 1207028
From Empire's Twilight: Northeast Asia under the Mongols by David M. Robinson

About Liaodong's ethnicity, it is rather complex.
View attachment 1220768
On Kingdom of Shenyang
As the map shows, we have Liaodong peninsula under Chinese army, Kingdom of Shenyang under a union with Goryeo and Liaoyang Province under Mongol-appointed Hong Pok-wŏn family, who known in Korean scripts "hated his motherland".

In 1266, Kublai Khan established Shenyang as a location for Goryeo POW. In 1308, Prince Wang Wŏn of Goryeo was awarded Kingdom of Shenyang for his military service, who inherited the Kingdom of Goryeo in the same year as Chungseon of Goryeo. After retirement, he transfered Shenyang to his niece Wang Ko, and Goryeo to his second son, Chungsuk of Goryeo. In 1345, Chungmok of Goryeo inherited Shenyang again.

On Chinese population in Liaodong​

There are two possible sources of Chinese in Liaoyang Province. According to History of Yuan (HoY), the government issued new official regulation stating: "(For higher officers' promotions), Jurchen and Khitans are treated like Chinese; Jurchen born and raised in Chinese regions are to be treated like Chinese." Therefore, highly Sinicized Jurchens and Khitans living in the cities were considered Chinese under Yuan Dynasty.

Aslo from HoY, in 1284, 1289, and 1293, the government dispatched 1272 households, 1000 men, and 1360 households of newly surrended troops to build Tuntian ("military-agricultural colonies") in Jinzhou and Fuzhou, around south end of Liaodong Peninsula. A modern source (in Chinese) estimated about 18k Chinese migrated in Liaodong Peninsula. The same source also confirmed that 8 of 9 last Yuan military leaders stationed in Liaodong were Chinese, who later surrended to Ming Dynasty.

I have some claims about the Korean population in Liaoyang Province. I will detail the immigration situation of Koreans based on Cong (1993) (in Chinese) and Xu (2008) (in Chinese)

1. Hong-led 1500 Korean households surrounded to Mongols in 1231. In 1232, the Mongol-Goryeo War resumed, and Hong's families were murdered by the King in 1233; thus, Hong led his remaining families and soldiers to retreat to Liaoyang City.
2. Mongols used Liaoyang as a refuge for anti-royalists of Goryeo, among which Cho and Yi led 2000 people to join Hong in Liaoyang City.
3. After Goryeo surrendered to the Mongols, the Duke of Yeongnyeong was sent to Liaoyang as a hostage and led another 1,300 households to reside in Shenyang.

In addition to Korean-led migration, Goryeo's POWs and refugees were relocated to Shenyang in 1297, Binzhou, Liaohe, Qingyuan, and Zhaozhou in 1316, and about 800 households back to Goryeo. Mongols ordered Goryeo to relocate a village with 200 households between Shenyang and Liaoyang and two villages with 100 households each on the southern bank of the Yalu River.

The total number of Koreans in Liaoyang Province amounted to more than 5,000 households and 30,000 people, comprising about 7% of the province's total population. Based on the History of Yuan data, in Shenyang, the 1300 households comprised 21% of 5183 total households, while in Liaoyang, the 2000-2700 Korean households comprised about 53%- 72% of 3708 total households. Most of the Korean population in Liaoyang Province lived in the Liaoyang-Shenyang region and the Korean Peninsula, with no clear evidence confirming other settlements. Although some records confirmed Koreans fled into Jurchen's land, their figure is complicate to estimate (could be more than 10k).

Outside Liaoyang Province, Khanbaliq/Beijing was a significant settlement for Koreans. The royal families of Goryeo sent many of the Korean population to Khanbaliq as their soldiers and servants. In 1354, Goryeo sent its 23,000-men-strong army from Khanbaliq to southern China for the battle of Gaoyou. The Korean population in Khanbaliq is estimated at least 30,000 people.

 

[tinto²]

Feedback on the Northeastern Region of Goryeo (Jurchen Tribes)

Before I begin, I’d like to clarify that I personally believe the northeastern regions of Goryeo were more likely Societies of pops rather than fully settled states. However, I also understand the developers’ reasoning for portraying them as settled states.

Here is my feedback:

A. [Haran]

This region has long been referred to in Goryeo as “갈라전” (Galajeon) or “karran.” The term “karran” is believed to have originated from the Jurchens who lived in the area, as they called it “Haran.” Therefore, I believe “Haran” would be a fitting name for this region.

B. [Muragu]

This region was known as “경성-Gyeongseong” (mirror town) during the Joseon Dynasty. The Jurchens who inhabited the area reportedly called it “Murlango” or “Muragu.” Interestingly, the term “Muragu” is said to mean “mirror” in the Jurchen language, which is why the Joseon Dynasty later adopted the name “Gyeongseong” with the same meaning. Given this historical context, I believe “Muragu” would be a fitting name for this region.

C. [Pajeo]

This area was referred to as “파저 여진-Pajeo Jurchen” by Goryeo and Joseon for a long time. Unfortunately, it’s unclear what the Jurchens themselves called this place. One plausible explanation is that the land was harsh and sparsely populated, making it difficult to establish any distinct local name. Given this uncertainty, I think “Pajeo” would be the most appropriate name for this region.

D. [Uryangkhad]

I believe the name "Uryangkhad" would suit this area well. Goryeo and Joseon referred to this region as "올량합" (Uryangkhad) for many years. One important point to note is that, while it may sound similar to "Uriankhai" (referring to a branch of the Mongols), the two names are actually distinct, with "Uryangkhad" referring to a Jurchen group. Therefore, I think "Uryangkhad" is a fitting name for this region.

E. [Odoli] or [Udege]

If the Jianzhou Jurchens moved to the Hunchun-Tumen area at the game’s starting point, then I think the name “오도리-Odoli” would be the most appropriate. However, if the Jianzhou Jurchens moved to Hetu Ala instead, then “우데게-Udege,” which reflects the region’s historically dominant group, would be a better fit.

F. [Naran]

I believe the name “Naran” would be appropriate for this region. Historical records from the Joseon Dynasty refer to this area as “나란” (Naran). The origin of the name “Naran” may have derived from a Jurchen tribal name or a Jurchen-style place name used by the local inhabitants at the time. Later, this area was renamed “Samsu” and “Gap-san” during the Joseon period. Therefore, I believe “Naran” would be a fitting name for this region.

G. [Dungru]

I think the name “Dungru” would be fitting for this region. During the Goryeo and Joseon periods, this area was referred to as “독로” (Dokro), which may have originated from the Jurchen word “Dung-ru” used to describe the region. Later, it was renamed “Ganggye” during the Goryeo and Joseon eras. Therefore, I believe “Dungru” would be a fitting name for this region.

 

[itoma_aikon]

1. The Tohoku region was then called "Ōu" or "Ōshū" and not "Tōhoku".

Spoiler: YONECHI,Fumio [I]et al[/I]., 1995, p5 (japanese)

一般に中世は「奥州」の名のもとに奥羽が一まとめに扱われることが多く，現東北地方が具体的に一つの地域として扱われるようになった時代といえよう。（中略）平安時代から江戸時代中期までの長い期間，地域を指すものとしての「東北」という語は，はとんど用いられていない。

Spoiler: YONECHI,Fumio [I]et al[/I]., 1995, p5 (english translation)

In general, the medieval period often treated the Ōu region collectively under the name "Ōshū," and it can be said that the time when the present-day Tōhoku region began to be regarded as a single area has arrived. (Omitted) During the long period from the Heian period to the mid-Edo period, the term "Tōhoku," referring to a region, was hardly used.

Other examples in this pdf were given for Ou as well as Oshu.

岩手大学リポジトリ

CMS,Netcommons,Maple

iwate-u.repo.nii.ac.jp

12/25 edit
Oshu may refer to the country of Mutsu alone, so Ou seems to be a better choice.

奥州(オウシュウ)とは？ 意味や使い方 - コトバンク

デジタル大辞泉 - 奥州の用語解説 - 陸奥むつ国の異称。白河・勿来なこその関から北の磐城いわき・岩代・陸前・陸中・陸奥むつ5か国の総称。現在の福島・宮城・岩手・青森の4県と秋田県の一部にあたる。[補説]市名別項。→奥州

kotobank.jp

2. The economic center would be Kyoto (Yamashiro Province) rather than Izumi.

Spoiler: ebara, 2016, p145 (japanese)

列島の東西、南北の結節点にあったのは京都である。朝廷や大小寺院の所在に加え、守護の在京が原則とされたことや、奉公衆が組織化されたことなどによって、この時代の京都には大量の武士も集住していた。瀬戸内海水運とは淀川で、日本海水運とは琵琶湖でつながり、陸揚げ地点となる鳥羽・伏見や大津・坂本には問おまると呼ばれる倉庫・交易業者の店が開かれ、そのもとで馬借のような運輸業者が活動していた。

Spoiler: ebara, 2016, p145 (english translation)

Kyoto was the nodal point of the archipelago, both east-west and north-south. In addition to the presence of the imperial court and various temples, the principle of having the shugo (military governors) residing in the capital and the organization of the vassals led to a large number of samurai gathering in Kyoto during this period. The Seto Inland Sea shipping was connected via the Yodo River, while the Japan Sea shipping was linked through Lake Biwa. At the landing points of Toba, Fushimi, Otsu, and Sakamoto, warehouses and trading shops known as tomonaru were established, under which transport businesses similar to horse-drawn carriers operated.

ebara, masaharu. 2016. 室町幕府と地方の社会. tokyo: 岩波新書

 

[Wildrake]

I think Toshima should be called Edo for this period, it is more recognizable.
And Miyazaki should be Jogasaki and placed where Naka is.

 

[Sulphurologist]

Topography Review.

This is an intermediate stage review, as I feel the location shapes don't quite match the topographic features.
Especially Hokkaido has location shapes that completely ignore existing topography.
As a lot of people proposed changes to the locations, I'd definitely wait till the "Feedback thread" before thinking about integrating my specific topographic suggestions.

HOWEVER, I think there is room for shaping some more locations to the existing topography. While administrative borders like to include barren ground ("this side of the mountain is mine"), this results in a lot of topographic features to be nullified on the map. Also, a lot of locations need to be upgraded to hills (especially in Korea).


I will present my case the other way around: 'marginal sources' like modern pop distribution, soil fertility in relation to the existing topography.

• The relation between topography, soil fertility and modern/historical population distribution is extremely clear for Korea and Japan.
• Wetlands in Japan are very fertile (washed out nutrients from volcanic soils), and especially the Kanto plain benefits here. Imo there should be some wetland locations, although I'd let game balance decide where exactly.
  • EDIT: I appended a more high-res DEM for the Kanto plain, should help guide the decision.
  • The Edo river used to be the original lower course of the Tone river, which was diverted in 1654 to relieve flood threats.

• Korea is very hilly, and due to its geology is very infertile in those hills.
  • This restricted the agricultural lifestyle to the coastal plains and broader valleys.

Terrain Ruggedness Index	Soil fertility (yellow & green = fertile)	Modern population threshold; black = 0 inhabitants/km²	Modern population (full range)	HYDE's anthromes ca. 1300 more saturated colors = more land usage/pops

Repeat of TRI	DEM - exaggerated colors	Wetlands

Current topography Tinto	Attempt at making suggestions	Attempt at making suggestions 'changelog'

LATE EDIT: Blowout of Hi-res DEM of Kanto Plain (0-100 m). Note the Tone river was diverted towards the East in 1654	LATE EDIT: Comparison to GLWD map	River courses in 16th century (pre-diversion). Modern Edo river was actually the original Tone river course.	Modern river courses (Edo river disconnected from Tone river)

 

[Goblin Slave]

Map of significant Gold, Silver, and Copper deposits in early modern Japan (With some other minerals included such as lead, tin, and mercury) It's important to note though that the mining boom that took place in this period was only possible due to new technologies, so these locations would have either been less productive or non-existent in 1337

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/isijinternational/54/5/54_1093/_pdf/-char/en

Evolution of Silver-smelting Technology of Japan in the Middle of Sixteenth Century

Access full-text academic articles: J-STAGE is an online platform for Japanese academic journals.

www.jstage.jst.go.jp

(Full article in pdf and website format)

 

[jh81560]

I don't object to this, but we should also consider balance.

Japan has the highest location density in the world, their own religion and a whole game mechanic. As a country which was historically considered stronger than Japan(might not exactly be true but perceptions don't come out of nowhere), I see no reason why this would be unbalancing.

 

[zeruosi]

Japan has the highest location density in the world, their own religion and a whole game mechanic. As a country which was historically considered stronger than Japan(may or may not be true but perceptions don't come out of nowhere), I see no reason why this would be unbalancing.

What are you talking about??? Is Korea stronger than Japan??? No, absolutely not. If you have received normal historical education, you should know that in history, Korea was invaded by Japan, not Korea invaded Japan.

 

[Goblin Slave]

Here's a list of missing natural harbors I think should be added to the map, with the caveat that it is not at all finished, I just decided it was best to go ahead and post it here for my own sanity. The Sea of Japan coastline definitely needs another look, but even outside that desolate wasteland there is still lots of gaps to fill in. Plan to add Maizuru, Hirado, Kochi, Moroyose, Yunotsu, Obama, and hopefully more. (I think they already covered Niigata, but I might add it anyways)

​

Nanao Port in Noto
​

• A bay protected and mostly enclosed by Noto Island and the Sakiyama Peninsula
• Nanao Castle, one of the largest medieval mountain castles in Japan, was built here by the Hatakeyama to better protect the port

Izuhara Port in Tsushima​

• The Tsushima Domain established its main shipyard/port here within a small inlet just inside the harbor in 1663
• In modern times the port holds a festival to celebrate its role in the diplomatic missions sent by Joseon Korea to Edo
• Tsushima was a major base for piracy and trade with Korea, and was eventually given a monopoly on the trade by the Tokugawa

Fukura Port in Awaji

​

• Has a sister harbor in Yura Port, protected by a lagoon, with a Meiji period fortress established there to protect Osaka
• Major node of communication between Shikoku and Kansai (Kyoto, Osaka) since ancient times (7th century AD)

Tsuruga Port in Tsuruga

​

• One of the major stops for the kitamaebune
• Major link between Sea of Japan coastline and Kyoto/Osaka, goods unloaded in harbor and taken short distance by land to lake Biwa
• Later superseded by the Shimonoseki route after the early Edo period, even then still considered one of the major Sea of Japan harbors

 

[Goblin Slave]

Here's a list of missing natural harbors I think should be added to the map, with the caveat that it is not at all finished, I just decided it was best to go ahead and post it here for my own sanity. The Sea of Japan coastline definitely needs another look, but even outside that black wasteland there is still gaps all over the place. Plan to add Maizuru, Hirado, Kochi, Moroyose, Yunotsu, Obama, and hopefully more. (I think they already covered Niigata, but I might add it anyways)

​

View attachment 1241366

Nanao Port in Noto
​

• A bay protected and mostly enclosed by Noto Island and the Sakiyama Peninsula
• Nanao Castle, one of the largest medieval mountain castles in Japan, was built here by the Hatakeyama to better protect the port

View attachment 1241365

Izuhara Port in Tsushima​

• The Tsushima Domain established its main shipyard/port here within a small inlet just inside the harbor in 1663
• In modern times the port holds a festival to celebrate its role in the diplomatic missions sent by Joseon Korea to Edo
• Tsushima was a major base for piracy and trade with Korea, and was eventually given a monopoly on the trade by the Tokugawa

View attachment 1241367

Fukura Port in Awaji

​

• Has a sister harbor in Yura Port, protected by a lagoon, with a Meiji period fortress established there to protect Osaka
• Major node of communication between Shikoku and Kansai (Kyoto, Osaka) since ancient times (7th century AD)

View attachment 1241369View attachment 1241370

Tsuruga Port in Tsuruga

​

• One of the major stops for the kitamaebune
• Major link between Sea of Japan coastline and Kyoto/Osaka, goods unloaded in harbor and taken short distance by land to lake Biwa
• Later superseded by the Shimonoseki route after the early Edo period, even then still considered one of the major Sea of Japan harbors

Some sources, a lot of them in Japanese, will add as I go along

福良港 - Wikipedia

ja.wikipedia.org

Tsuruga Port - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

“Ö‰ê`‚Ì—ðŽj

https://www.wave.or.jp/minatobunka/archives/report/042.pdf

https://www.wave.or.jp/minatobunka/archives/report/032.pdf

https://www.wave.or.jp/minatobunka/archives/report/097.pdf

https://www.wave.or.jp/minatobunka/archives/report/072.pdf

https://www.wave.or.jp/minatobunka/archives/report/073.pdf

https://www.wave.or.jp/minatobunka/archives/report/043.pdf

 

[Temuugun]

I think all nations should have possibility for extraterritorial countries as it offers so much ease and depth in presenting medieval states.
Especially in case of Mongol hordes "Extraterritorial country" would make perfect tool for showing governance and disunity of Mongol khanates and hordes within Greater Khanate. We could model Golden horde existing while many other smaller hordes and tribes existing within it just like the Japanese daimyos. There could even be an event or disaster in which after the death of Uzbeg khan or accension of khan with weak legitimacy "Sengoku Jidai " of Golden horde occurs, with victorious side getting to enthrone their candidate for Khan
We could further use this model for other states across the world such as Delhi sultanate. When Delhi sultanate collapses in many places it happens by the emirs with already existing "fief" in local area depriving last of central government's authorities. Modeling those already existing "fiefs" as extraterritorial countries would make it perfectly fluid to transitioning into full on independence from Sultan.
Using this model we can make the varies tribes and cities in Chagatai khanate more easily presentable while making their eventual secession from khanate plausible. It would be prefect tool in case of Emir Timur. We could have Timur take control of extraterritorial state of Barlas "tribe" in western Chagatai khanate who in time gains increasing authority and power within the khanate until eventually usurping rulership entirely from Genghisisd khans.
I think even European kingdoms should have "Extraterritorial countries" to represent autonomies entities within the state such as weaker feudal vassals , free cities, bishoprics (temple lands) , and holy orders. I think having new countries for every sizable feudal county is getting out of hand when it could be mostly solved with implementing "Extraterritorial countries" as new kind of very low autonomy vassal with limited political capacity and diplomatic ability beyond the host "state".
Intertwining Estates with "Extraterritorial countries" would enrich game play massively while making governance far more fluid. For example in Christian kingdom with strong church influence and high church "land" , once locations/ or provinces grow highly autonomies (maybe at 90%) event could trigger for which church demands to create temple demesne (extraterritorial country ) there. I could even think of the event wording.
" Your majesty , news from the provinces. For years crowns control over the province of "XXX" has been growing weaker until at last local officials have even lost ability to tax. The local priests however have been using their influence and extensive land ownership in the region to run much of day to to day administration of the province. Local Bishop has sent petition to us hoping we could make this arrangement official by granting them administrative rights over the province by creating new bishopric. If accepted priests in our court would certainly be happy"
With limited diplomatic ability these new level of vassals would not change international stage while greatly influencing their host countries politics.
Overall introducing "Extraterritorial countries" new more integrated level of vassal would make great addition to gameplay and historical accuracy.