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Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

Hello and welcome once more to another week of Tinto Maps. This week we are going to the lands even further to the East and taking a look at Korea and Japan. So, without further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
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Korea during the Goryeo dynasty was under the orbit of Yuán, and had very close ties with it, with the Yuán emperors taking Korean wives. The north, though, and also Tamna in the Jeju island wouldn’t be unified under Korea until the following Joseon dynasty, so they are still separated although all of them also under Yuán. On the other side, Japan starts in a very interesting situation. After a failed attempt to overthrow the shogunate and restore imperial power during the Kenmu restoration, one of the generals that contributed to such restoration, Ashikaga Takauji, in the end established his own shogunate in 1336 (just before the start of the game). The emperor had then to flee the capital and thus we start with the period of the Northern and Southern Courts, with two opposing Emperors and the shogun fighting for legitimacy. So, although it appears unified at first glance, Japan hides many internal divisions within (more on that later). Further South, the kingdom of Ryūkyū is not yet unified, so the three mountain kingdoms of Hokuzan, Chūzan and Nanzan vie for supremacy over the island.

Societies of pops
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Basically already shown in the Manchuria Tinto Maps, but they need to be shown here too, especially the Ainu.

Dynasties
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As it happens in China, the “Goryeo dynasty” name is actually not the name of the dynasty itself, which is actually the house of Wang.

Locations
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Provinces
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Here (as well as with the areas next) we have tried to follow the administrative division of both countries in period, but we’ve had to make some adjustments. In Korea, we had to account for the fact that historically, almost immediately after the start of the game the Josen dynasty took over and the administrative divisions are somewhat different, so we’ve adjusted them together (and had to divide some of the bigger provinces for gameplay reasons). In Japan, the administrative divisions remained virtually unchanged since the establishment of the Ritsuryō system in the 7-8th century until after the Meiji restoration in 1868. However, we still had to make some adjustments, and the smaller ones had to unfortunately disappear.

Areas
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Terrain
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Very mountainous and forested areas both, so the few plains have to be taken the most advantage of.

Development
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Not bad developed areas, but obviously development decreases the further north it goes.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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Korea is mainly Korean, and Japan has been divided into four main groups. Besides this, we also have Ainu in the north, Jeju in Jeju island and Ryūkyū in the Ryūkyū islands.

Religions
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Korea has the same (name pending) religion as China while Japan is Shintō. I must say that this Shintō is not at all considered to be a Kami-exclusively-oriented Shintō nor the post-Meiji State Shintō in any shape or form. In all effects, it is considered under the Buddhism umbrella and it is treated as Buddhist Shintō, while of course including some different mechanics and references to the Kami too. The name Shintō was chosen basically because it’s more recognizable and identifiable with Japan. Besides this, there’s also the Ainu religion for the Ainu, and the Utaki religion for the Ryūkyū.

Raw Materials
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Not bad areas for resources, and plenty of rice and fish in Japan to get good sushi. The more observant of you will see that the resources of Hokkaido have already been adjusted thanks to feedback from the previous Manchuria Tinto Maps.

Markets
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Some may find surprising the presence of Izumi as a Market in Japan, but it is the area that served as the main point of entrance for commerce into central Japan, where the merchant town of Sakai developed, until later Osaka developed under Toyotomi and basically took over that function.

Population
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Not much to say here, except that quite a bit of population waiting for some action.

Extraterritorial Countries
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I’m sure many of you were waiting for this. The samurai clans in Japan are represented as Extraterritorial Countries, and we have tried to be as close as possible to their distribution of territory in 1337. As you can imagine, that is not an easy task, and some more tweaking is needed, so if you have any feedback or extra info on that regard it would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, there’s some overlapping of some clans on the same territory and only one name can be shown at a time, so not all names are visible (the Oda clan is still there, I promise), but there are a total of 143 clans (not counting Ashikaga), plus two extra for each of the imperial courts that are present at start. Related to this, each clan will pledge its allegiance to either the northern or the southern court, mainly based on their historical allegiances but allowing a bit of leeway (and those allegiances don’t necessarily have to be permanent). So, as a bit of an extra tease, these are the allegiances of the clans at start (yellow are the north court supporters, blue are the southern court ones, and again keep in mind that only one color can be present even if there’s more than one clan with different allegiances in the same location)
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And that is all for today. Next week there will not be any Tinto Maps due to being a bank holiday, so next one will be in two weeks for a look further south into South East Asia. See you there.
 
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Disappointed you've chosen to go the same route as EU4 and create an entirely fictional cultural divide in Japan. If you don't want Japan to just be one culture, though, I don't know if you have many other options, since we have so little data on dialects from this period. Not sure why you'd be so opposed to Japan all being one culture, though? If English qualifies as one culture, surely Japanese does as well.
It is so that there is some gameplay difference between the clans, also considering that there have always been regional differences there, for example with the clans of Tohoku or Kyushu being considered as "different" than the ones in central Japan.
 
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Here’s some known tea producing locations from the 14th century, from William Wayne Farris’ book on the history of Japanese tea.


The habit-forming beverage, now sweeter and tastier than ever, pros- pered within this decentralized context. Beginning around 1350, a bud- ding tea industry began to emerge. Different regions of Japan competed against each other with their own unique brands of tea:
Of the famous tea mountains of our dynasty, Toganoo is the best. Ninnaji, Daigoji, Uji, Hamuro [in Yamato], Hannyaji [in Yamato], and Kannōji [in Tanba]: these are next. In addition, Muroo in Yamato, Yashima in Iga, Kawai in Ise, Kiyomi in Suruga, and Kawagoe in Musashi—all these are specially mentioned throughout the realm. The famous places at Ninnaji and Yamato and Iga compare to the tea fields here and there just like agate to trash. Then, too, Toganoo compares to Ninnaji and Daigoji like gold to lead.61
This quotation, taken from a source completed during the mid-fourteenth century, lists the most famous tea production centers in Japan. While the most delicious tea apparently still came from Yamato and Yamashiro, it is notable that tea drinkers could also find the tasty beverage in Tanba, Iga, Ise, Suruga, and Musashi.
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These named places may have been the best, but tea patches were also located “here and there” throughout the realm. Other records dating to the period 1340–1400 describe fields in Saidaiji and Hamuro in Yamato, Yamashina (2), Uji (2), and Saga in Yamashiro, Kii (3), Settsu (3), Tanba (3), Izumi (2), Mino and Shimōsa (3).62 By the 1350s, tea was being cultivated, processed, and consumed widely throughout the Kinai, central Honshu, and the Kanto plain. As one writer of the 1300s put it, “new tea flows unexpectedly throughout the world.”63 Outstanding brand-name centers of tea had multiplied with the shift to a more regional political and eco- nomic structure, and would become an essential ingredient in the rise of a consumer society much later.
With many different brands competing against one another, tea was on its way to becoming big business, as is implied in this incident dated to the first half of the fourteenth century:
 
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I'm interested in what was the thought process behind not giving any land to the clans and keep it all under the shogun. Did they historically had no control over land/taxes by 1337?

And I have to be that guy and ask, why does Hokkaido have so many locations? By 1876 they had 58k people (according to Wikipedia etc), and it seems the population wasn't any higher in the prior centuries. Where did the location names/borders come from, had the Shogunate already chartered the island?
By 1337 the daimyo were Shugo Daimyo, meaning that the Shogun appointed them to the territory. It is not until a bit later that they transition into Sengoku Daimyo when they start getting more autonomy and authority over their own land regardless of what the Shogun wanted. That's why they are represented as extraterritorial countries at start, but will turn into normal countries during the Sengoku.
 
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Beautiful maps! I am obsessed with the extraterritorial clan system, though I have split opinions about it as of now... a few questions:
1- If they're landless, what gives them structure? Is it the pops? If we force pops of a clan out of allegiance, does the clan cease to exist? Because from my former understanding of extraterritorial countries, they were building-based (for example the Hanseatic kontors and the Banking branches) but what forms the core of each clan, until they manage to get landed via advances? Moreover, aren't these daimyos all about owning land, historically? This feels kinda redundant to abstract them away as extraterritorial countries and then as the game progresses, have them "settle down" to become legitimate. I feel like this would have been better represented by something like a nested duchies mechanic similar to CK3.
2- Can I get a close up screenshot of the 3 Ryukuan countries? I can't tell which is which.
3- Slightly unrelated but let's say we manage to form the Ilkhanate as a landed Persian nation from the IO - will all the former subjects become extra-territorial countries similar to the daimyos here?
4 - Are there any other geographic areas where extraterritorial countries show internal division in this game, or just japan? From what I see Hanseatic League is quite the opposite, an extra-territorial country with lots of landed countries as subjects.
It should be Sannan 山南 in the south, Chūzan 中山 in the centre, and Hokuzan 北山 in the north. I can't tell if the southern state is called Sannan or Nanzan: Nanzan is anachronistic and incorrect.
 
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It is so that there is some gameplay difference between the clans, also considering that there have always been regional differences there, for example with the clans of Tohoku or Kyushu being considered as "different" than the ones in central Japan.
Kyushu has also been known as Kyukoku, why not name the culture that, or perhaps Kyugoku? It would be more in line with the other culture names. (Kyushu means 9 provinces, just like Shikoku means 4 provinces/countries)
 

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Ashio Copper Mines (足尾銅山) in Tochigi should not exist in 1337. Copper ore deposits were only discovered around the middle of the 1500s and a mine was only established in the early 1600s under the Tokugawa. I think it should produce Timber (or Lumber? I don't remember the name of the good). Also, it seems like Ashio is Hills terrain, when it should really be mountains:View attachment 1206949
I mean if it was mined there during the time period, I don't think it's a problem for it to have copper. It can start with no levels in the RGO.
 
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Korea is mainly Korean, and Japan has been divided into four main groups. Besides this, we also have Ainu in the north, Jeju in Jeju island and Ryūkyū in the Ryūkyū islands.

Religions
View attachment 1204622
Korea has the same (name pending) religion as China while Japan is Shintō. I must say that this Shintō is not at all considered to be a Kami-exclusively-oriented Shintō nor the post-Meiji State Shintō in any shape or form. In all effects, it is considered under the Buddhism umbrella and it is treated as Buddhist Shintō, while of course including some different mechanics and references to the Kami too. The name Shintō was chosen basically because it’s more recognizable and identifiable with Japan. Besides this, there’s also the Ainu religion for the Ainu, and the Utaki religion for the Ryūkyū.
On Shintō; given its quasi-syncretic nature, will you be able to, as the religious head/ruler of Japan, sway the ways of the religion towards either more Buddhism-oriented or more Kami-oriented/exclusive? So for example, could you pull a "Meiji-manoeuvre" earlier than it historically happened, or do the opposite and evolve this religion into a purely Buddhist direction?
 
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what will the gameplay as the main japan tag be like ? I get that for the clans it'll probably be "become the emperor, and/or expropriate other clans", but what about the shogunate ? Do they have tools to avoid getting partitioned completely by the various samourais clans ?
They will, the Shogunate will have to try to establish a firm control over the clans and avoid falling into complete chaos.
 
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I really think Japanese religion should be called Shinbutsu-shūgō with the possibility of an early Meiji style separation in Buddhism and Shinto
 
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I mean if it was mined there during the time period, I don't think it's a problem for it to have copper. It can start with no levels in the RGO.
Potentially, but I fear for situations where you have extreme exploitation by the player of these locations 50 years after game start, when historically they weren't even discovered yet, much less mined, at that time. Same situation with the Sado silver mines.

No problem if they stay that way, it's not a serious issue at all, but even EU4 had some dynamic RGOs and I think it's a cool feature to make use of.
 
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