Tinto Maps #25 - 8th of November 2024 - South East Asia

[Phet1945]

I find it weird to name a province "Angkor Wat" (which is just the big temple in the city of Angkor (Angkor Thom)).
Maybe call the location Angkor Thom and the province Angkor (or vice versa). Leave Angkor Wat for the building/wonder.

It's actually Angkor nothing else.

 

[Phet1945]

There should be more natural harbors in:
- Coastal regions of Arakan, Myanmar
- Rangoon, Myanmar
- Sattahip, Thailand
- Almost all coastal provinces located in Champa. Just look at the map, the place is full of natural harbors.View attachment 1214102
- modern day Hue, Hoi An, Da Nang, Quang Ninh, Vietnam

It's really correct already why it didn't have lot of harbor especially port city viz for Thailand case Chonburi can be big port aka Lam Chabang in 1980s or in start date Bangkok aren't big trade at 1300s. For other cities I have remind you at that time, it wasn't easy to be found city as they have a lot of challenge in term of money, resource, transportation isn't good like today and cross giant tropical jungle and mountain, Ayutthaya kingdom and Malacca sultanate aren't rich without reason and Burma wage war with pegu and Ayutthaya to get port city and sea access.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

I think there’s a misunderstanding here:

Chinese characters did indeed have a deep influence throughout the second millennium in Vietnam (after gaining independence). However, it was just the Chinese characters themselves, as during this period, the Vietnamese gradually created their own script called "Chữ Nôm."

Chinese characters were used among scholars and in the royal court, primarily for recording history and poetry, not for communication or discussing state affairs. For the Vietnamese, we call it "Hán Việt," similar to how the Japanese call it "Kanji" or the Koreans call it "Hanja" — reading Chinese characters in the local language.

The Vietnamese did not use Classical Chinese in daily communication; they still spoke Old-Middle Vietnamese.

P.S.:
If Project Caesar had a map mode for court languages, it would likely be challenging to distinguish between the concepts of language and script, as Vietnamese dynasties used Chinese characters but spoke Vietnamese.

It's called "Liturgical Language" for a reason. Like, England in PC has Latin as a liturgical language but we know that there were books and things written in English and French at the time. Liturgical Language is explicitly not supposed to represent "daily communication".

Maybe there should be a separate "Administrative Language" instead, that reflects the language used to govern the state? But overall I think the idea behind liturgical language is it mainly benefits research speed with increased language power(and I imagine provides a small opinion boost) so I'd say it makes sense to have shared liturgical languages for Korea and Vietnam to sort of bind them together with China a bit more. Perhaps there could be a prestige benefit for using a Liturgical language that is "your own" encouraging you to consider switching to native languages over the course of the game.

 

[Yenkune]

I think it needs to expressed in vegetation patterns more than as a change in climate. The area is consistently classified as having a Tropical Savannah climate, which have pronounced dry seasons.

The sand dunes in the picture are but a small part of the entire location, and coastal sand dunes are more related to sedimentary environments than climate patterns. That said, it is indeed clearly not a jungle when looking at the NDVI map of the region, where dense vegetation is more restricted to the uplands. A mix of forest and woods seems more appropriate I think?

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Considering this region has Savannah climate IRL, doesn't this already fix your concern? 'Tropical jungle' is agreed a no go for those locations then though.

You realized that some tropical savannah areas can be drier than other shouldn't you?
From Britannica Encyclopedia :
In general, savannas grow in tropical regions 8° to 20° from the Equator. Conditions are warm to hot in all seasons, but significant rainfall occurs for only a few months each year—about October to March in the Southern Hemisphere and April to September in the Northern Hemisphere. Mean annual precipitation is generally 80 to 150 cm (31 to 59 inches), although in some central continental locations it may be as low as 50 cm (20 inches). The dry season is typically longer than the wet season, but it varies considerably, from 2 to 11 months.

Tropical rainforests occur in regions of the tropics where temperatures are always high and where rainfall exceeds about 1,800 to 2,500 mm (about 70 to 100 inches) annually and occurs fairly evenly throughout the year. Similar hot climates in which annual rainfall lies between about 800 and 1,800 mm and in which a pronounced season of low rainfall occurs typically support tropical deciduous forests—i.e., rainforests in which up to about three-quarters of the trees lose their leaves in the dry season.

Savannah is quite distinct from tropical rainforest, right?


Meanwhile you labeled most of Southeast Asia's savannah regions including Ninh Thuan and Binh Thuan as dense jungles:

 

[TheRedNaxela]

I'm personally inclined on making Yuan blue (already said that it's color is going to change)

I thought Yuan should be red, whereas Ming is yellow

 

[Yenkune]

people disagreed because of the animist thing. They split up the animist religion long ago so "bru" is supposed to be "bru animism"

But the problem lies in the map. You realized that the area that is labeled as Bru isn't just Bru there, but also dozens of other ethnic groups things whose significant population. You know why during the Vietnam war the Americans in general usually referred to the inhabitants of the mountains as Montagnards which translated as Mountain peoples instead of particular ethnic identities, because they understood that there weren't few groups outta there, but hundreds of diverse different peopls. Labelling such ethnographical term is very Western-centric and doesn't make any senses in that area

 

[lazprune]

Shouldn't Vietnamese culture simply be called Viet? AFAIK this is the ethnonym of the people speaking Vietnamese (whom we are talking about here) and Viet Nam is a later name of the state with Nam meaning South, which gave the name Vietnamese for all its inhabitants and not just the ethnic Viets.

 

[Phet1945]

I get what is being portrayed here, and I love it, but the old city of Ayodhya (with the sanskrit/indianised spelling) was long abandoned, around the early 1200s. The main city in the region under the Lopburi kings was Sena Ratchanakhon. Ayodhya as a city did not exist in 1337, except in ruins (and the other flourishing one in India) and was only formally (re-)founded in 1351.
I think the location should be named as Sena Ratchanakhon, and via event chain when Ayutthaya Kingdom forms, it gets renamed to Ayutthaya and becomes the new capital of the merger polity.

EDIT: Also is the location that long just to provide it sea access? Cause otherwise I'd have split it up for a coastal village location to eventually give birth to Bangkok which happens within the game's timeline.

Actually, King Uthong have move into city at Veanglhek or Veanglek (Steel city or small city) which was at the south of Ayutthaya Island to be specific Phutthaisawan temple, which was his Palance before and later the mostly disease maybe black dead (when he found cities was around at that time.) or if not it still be disease that make people dead a lot and he have to biuld cities at Bueang Praram (Nong Sano) aka Ayutthaya cities so he stay around there for a while.

Thx to high-speed rail controversial in Thailand so I can know this map from department of fine art exist , the blue one was Ayutthaya and the red one was Ayodhaya.

PS. the real name of ayodhaya was Ayodhaya Sri Ram Thep Nakhon.

 

[Sulphurologist]

You realized that some tropical savannah areas can be drier than other shouldn't you?
From Britannica Encyclopedia :
In general, savannas grow in tropical regions 8° to 20° from the Equator. Conditions are warm to hot in all seasons, but significant rainfall occurs for only a few months each year—about October to March in the Southern Hemisphere and April to September in the Northern Hemisphere. Mean annual precipitation is generally 80 to 150 cm (31 to 59 inches), although in some central continental locations it may be as low as 50 cm (20 inches). The dry season is typically longer than the wet season, but it varies considerably, from 2 to 11 months.

Tropical rainforests occur in regions of the tropics where temperatures are always high and where rainfall exceeds about 1,800 to 2,500 mm (about 70 to 100 inches) annually and occurs fairly evenly throughout the year. Similar hot climates in which annual rainfall lies between about 800 and 1,800 mm and in which a pronounced season of low rainfall occurs typically support tropical deciduous forests—i.e., rainforests in which up to about three-quarters of the trees lose their leaves in the dry season.

Savannah is quite distinct from tropical rainforest, right?


Meanwhile you labeled most of Southeast Asia's savannah regions including Ninh Thuan and Binh Thuan as dense jungles:

What? Your statement is the same as what I said?

I didn't label anything, I just copied the original tinto maps image for comparison, and then mentioned that it should rather be woodlands than jungle, because it is savannah climate irl, not tropical rainforest. But PC considers savannah as part of tropical climate.

So tldr of my previous post: don't change the climate map, but change the vegetation to match the more arid conditions.

 

[hoangden]

I think there’s a misunderstanding here:

Chinese characters did indeed have a deep influence throughout the second millennium in Vietnam (after gaining independence). However, it was just the Chinese characters themselves, as during this period, the Vietnamese gradually created their own script called "Chữ Nôm."

Chinese characters were used among scholars and in the royal court, primarily for recording history and poetry, not for communication or discussing state affairs. For the Vietnamese, we call it "Hán Việt," similar to how the Japanese call it "Kanji" or the Koreans call it "Hanja" — reading Chinese characters in the local language.

The Vietnamese did not use Classical Chinese in daily communication; they still spoke Old-Middle Vietnamese.

P.S.:
If Project Caesar had a map mode for court languages, it would likely be challenging to distinguish between the concepts of language and script, as Vietnamese dynasties used Chinese characters but spoke Vietnamese.

I agree with this, but the liturgical language will affect research speed in the game, so I think either we should set Chinese as liturgical language, or the Chữ Nôm should have a slight buff on research speed/institutional spread since Dai Viet did benefit a lot from Chinese knowledge and institutions (much more than Burma for example)

 

[Yenkune]

What? Your statement is the same as what I said?

I didn't label anything, I just copied the original tinto maps image for comparison, and then mentioned that it should rather be woodlands than jungle, because it is savannah climate irl, not tropical rainforest. But PC considers savannah as part of tropical climate.

So tldr of my previous post: don't change the climate map, but change the vegetation to match the more arid conditions.

Savannah is primarily grassland


From Britannica,
savanna, vegetation type that grows under hot, seasonally dry climatic conditions and is characterized by an open tree canopy (i.e., scattered trees) above a continuous tall grass understory (the vegetation layer between the forest canopy and the ground).

You are wrong again

 

[Cruci]

I think there’s a misunderstanding here:

Chinese characters did indeed have a deep influence throughout the second millennium in Vietnam (after gaining independence). However, it was just the Chinese characters themselves, as during this period, the Vietnamese gradually created their own script called "Chữ Nôm."

Chinese characters were used among scholars and in the royal court, primarily for recording history and poetry, not for communication or discussing state affairs. For the Vietnamese, we call it "Hán Việt," similar to how the Japanese call it "Kanji" or the Koreans call it "Hanja" — reading Chinese characters in the local language.

The Vietnamese did not use Classical Chinese in daily communication; they still spoke Old-Middle Vietnamese.

P.S.:
If Project Caesar had a map mode for court languages, it would likely be challenging to distinguish between the concepts of language and script, as Vietnamese dynasties used Chinese characters but spoke Vietnamese.

Um, yes. You're agreeing with what I said. My point is that Classical Chinese was used for scholarship and religious texts, the function served by "liturgical language" in Project Caesar. Obviously it wasn't used for everyday communication, as it mostly existed only in writing (and you had to study to learn it in the first place). The "common language" of Vietnamese culture and the "court language" of Dai Viet should most certainly be Vietnamese, as you say.

Regarding script, I don't think that's much of an issue—a Chinese script was used for writing Vietnamese, but so was eg. the Latin script used for writing the vernacular European languages (and still is).

 

[dragonluke]

But the problem lies in the map. You realized that the area that is labeled as Bru isn't just Bru there, but also dozens of other ethnic groups things whose significant population. You know why during the Vietnam war the Americans in general usually referred to the inhabitants of the mountains as Montagnards which translated as Mountain peoples instead of particular ethnic identities, because they understood that there weren't few groups outta there, but hundreds of diverse different peopls. Labelling such ethnographical term is very Western-centric and doesn't make any senses in that area

Deva said the cultures aren’t done

 

[hoangden]

Um, yes. You're agreeing with what I said. My point is that Classical Chinese was used for scholarship and religious texts, the function served by "liturgical language" in Project Caesar. Obviously it wasn't used for everyday communication, as it mostly existed only in writing (and you had to study to learn it in the first place). The "common language" of Vietnamese culture and the "court language" of Dai Viet should most certainly be Vietnamese, as you say.

Regarding script, I don't think that's much of an issue—a Chinese script was used for writing Vietnamese, but so was eg. the Latin script used for writing the vernacular European languages (and still is).

I agree with this as well, or if you want Vietnamese/chữ Nôm to be the court and liturgical language respectively, there should be a minor buff or chữ Nôm should be like a "dialect" of the Han Chinese writing because Dai Viet did benefit a lot from this shared writing, which helps institutional and knowledge spread from China. It does not make sense that Dai Viet has as much Chinese institutional knowledge as Burma or Champa, while Burma benefits from Indian institutional knowledge due to shared writing. This institutional knowledge advantage is what helped Dai Viet became stronger and subdued Champa in the 15th century.

[6] Lieberman, V. (2003). Strange Parallels: Southeast Asia in Global Context, c.800–1830. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
"Under Le Thanh-tong (r. 1460–1497), whose conquests and whose pioneering embrace of the Neo-Confucian model arguably made him the most celebrated king in Vietnamese history, the pendulum shifted. Although Thanh Nghe clans, to whom the new king remained tied by blood and marriage, continued to dominate the army and benefited most directly from Le Thanh-tong’s military expansion, scholar officials from Dong Kinh achieved undreamed of influence in royal councils. Why this new regional formula? To penetrate villages in the delta, whose resources were needed for domestic programs and a projected invasion of Champa, stronger literati support was essential. With a new literati generation, the stigma of collaboration wore thin. Most basic perhaps, Thanh-tong himself, who had been tutored by literati, shared their deeply moralizing vision that seems to have swept much of the countryside in this period."

 

[Sulphurologist]

Savannah is primarily grassland


From Britannica,
savanna, vegetation type that grows under hot, seasonally dry climatic conditions and is characterized by an open tree canopy (i.e., scattered trees) above a continuous tall grass understory (the vegetation layer between the forest canopy and the ground).

You are wrong again

You are talking about Savanna vegetation/biomes, I am talking about Tropical Savanna climate, one of the official Köppen climate zones.
They don't mean the same thing.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Are there any IOs or building countries in the area?

Not in here.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Will theravada be split like mahayana will in the future or im going too far?

No, there are no plans for that.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Im assuming the Malay peninsula will be in the next dev diary as well?

Yes.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Please correct. Kingdom of Dali was ruled by Bai people, not Yi people.

Both Bai and Yi people envolve from Baiman and Wuman of Cuan people, which split in 6th Century, but they are very different from each other in light of their customs and languages.

Dali is indeed Bai, it's just a lot of Yi people there too.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Upper Burma and the Shan People

Hello! This will be a long post, I've been working on it for about a month on-and-off, hopefully it's insightful. I figured that other people might give suggestions on the rest of Burma/Myanmar, or that this information would be easier for others to find, so I only focused on the Shan regions which I'm more familiar with.

A brief history lesson:
In 1337, the situation in Burma is often called the period of "Shan domination", for the last 100 years Shan people had been migrating further into Burma and setting up their own independent principalities and towns, which are called "Möngs" (this is the same word as the Thai "Mueang"). The Shan people would often raid and settle into old Burmese lands, in 1365 this got so intense that it led to the collapse of the Sagaing and Pinya kingdoms, and the founding of the new Ava kingdom. However, this wasn't the complete end of the "Shan domination", which continued for the next 2 centuries and culminated in 1527, when the Shan kingdoms conquered Ava. This partly contributed to the rise of the Taungoo dynasty in the south, who very soon reconquered Burma. After this point, Shan history essentially merges with Burmese history, though they still maintained their semi-autonomous Möngs.

---

Locations

View attachment 1213785
Since I'm focusing on the Shan regions, all names shown on the map are primarily Shan, to keep it easy to format.

A lot of new names! Almost every location has been adjusted, mostly small respellings for consistency, but also a lot of new translations into Shan or replacements for anachronistic names. Some of them might be suitable as default English names, while others would be best as only dynamic names.

I've also added around 20 new locations, some of them might not be necessary but I've tried to only add them when I thought there was a logical reason to do so.

Make sure to check the spoilered lists:

Spoiler: Detailed list of locations

Unless stated otherwise, sources in this list are from the book "Gazetteer of Upper Burma and the Shan States", which has been an invaluable resource for this task. The document is split into 5 volumes, which can be found as PDFs on the Myanmar Law Library https://myanmar-law-library.org/law-library/legal-journal/burma-gazetter/ (note that there are some occasional scan errors which might make some letters appear wrong, e.g. "Küng" becoming "Kilng")

For names I've transliterated directly from the Shan script, or names I've adjusted the spelling of, I've followed the document "Tables for the transliteration of Shan names into English (1892)" (Z library link https://z-lib.io/book/16791705). However, I've avoided using hyphens and long-vowel-diacritics (ā, ī, ū, ē), these are almost never used in maps or articles so it would just make everything inconsistent. Anyway, this isn't the only method which is used for transliterating Shan, but it's the closest to the names you'll see in maps, articles, the Burma Gazetteer, etc. The Shan script has also added some characters since 1900, in which case you can fill in the gaps from Omniglot's table https://www.omniglot.com/writing/shan.htm

In regards to the above, most of those transliterated names are from Shan Wikipedia. The names on Shan Wikipedia are mostly from Shan news agencies or Shan revival projects, so it's probably a very reliable source.

On to the actual list - names will be given first in Shan, then have the Burmese name in brackets, then any other local names in the notes afterwards:

Kachin area

Hkamti province

1. Hkamyang - Named after the Tai Khamyang people who lived here at the time, the Ahom chronicle also mentions it as a place name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khamyang_people If not this, it could also be named Nawng Yang (Shan name for the Lake of No Return), Man Nam (supposedly an old Khamyang village by the same lake), or Pang Sao (Pangsau, modern town, founded 1775)

2. Hpake - New location, split from Hkamyang (Tarung) to represent the stark difference between the valley and mountains in the original location, and the fact that the route going west to the Hkamti location goes directly from one valley to another. Named after the Tai Phake people who lived here at the time. "Phake" refers to a river gorge in the Hukawng valley, probably near modern Shin Bway Yang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Tai-Phake_people_in_northeast_India Interestingly, this old map also marks Phake-yooa in the same place https://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueMap/burmanempire-wyld-1879 If not this, then the only other name would be Hukawng (Payindwin in Burmese) which was an ancient province of Möng Kawng

3. Möng Hkawn (Maingkwan or Maingkhwan) - Given as the Shan name of Maingkwan, there are some spelling variations like Möng Hkwan or Möng Kawn

4. Tanai - This was originally Maingkwan on your map, but that would've been the wrong place. This location just seems to be the upper reaches of the Tanai river, there aren't any major settlements even today and I'm a skeptical if it should even be a location

5. Hkamti (Kanti) - Moved the border southwards a little to balance out my other changes. This town is also called Singkaling Hkamti to distinguish it from the original Hkamti (Hkamti Long), it was settled by Shans in the 18th century and Singkaling was apparently the name of the Naga tribe who lived here before

6. Tamansai (Tamanthi or Htamanthi) - Minsin was a tiny village (I'm guessing this is a leftover from EU4) so I moved your original Htamanthi up here and gave it a connection with Tizu (important because the river connection leads directly into the town). The Shan name is Tamansai http://www.jstor.org/stable/2843177

Htamanthi province

I've represented the rough location of the Ungoching hill range in black, this is an uninhabited stretch of land with only a few places you can pass through, so you might want to represent it.

7. Hongmalang (Homalin) - Shan name is Hongmalang (Upper Chindwin Gazetteer, page 75 https://www.myanmar-law-library.org...azetter/upper-chindwin-district-volume-a.html)

8. Hpakan - Spelling changed from Phakant. This town likely didn't exist more than 200 years ago, but I couldn't find a better name

9. Möng Küng (Maingkaing) - Also called Möng Köng or possibly Möng Küng Kwai in the Hsenwi chronicle

10. Hsawnghsup (Thaungdut) - New location, split from Hkampat (Tamu) for political borders. The modern town of Hsawnghsup is located on the Chindwin river, but the old town was located in the north of the Kabaw valley, near modern Thanan or Myo Thit, it moved to the current location around the 1800s

11. Hkampat - Also called Khampat. At the time, it was a bigger town than Tamu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabaw_Valley

12. Hpawngpang (Paungbyin) - Transliterated from Shan Wikipedia ၽွင်းပၢင်ႇ

13. Mawlek (Mawlaik) - New location, split from Hpawngpang (Paungbyin) to balance the size with neighbouring locations. I also extended the border a bit further west to fit the geography. "Mawlek" is transliterated from Shan Wikipedia မေႃႇလဵၵ်

Kale province

14. Kat Lü (Kale) - Transliterated from Shan Wikipedia ၵၢတ်ႇလိုဝ်း

15. Kalewa - New location, split from Kale to represent the hill range and balance out Kale's size. Names are identical in Shan (ၵလေးဝ) and Burmese. I'm not really happy with the name of this location, Kalewa seems like it might be a new settlement or name, some other options could be Masein or Singaung, but I couldn't find Shan names for these, at best it would just be guesswork changing Singaung to Sinkawng.

16. Möng Kang (Mingin) - I extended the border of this location north to make it look better and to fit traditional state boundaries. Name transliterated from Shan Wikipedia မိူင်းၵၢင်း

Wuntho province

17. Man Mawk (Banmauk) - New location, split from Möng Küng (Zalon Taung) and parts of Katha and Htigyaing to represent the surrounding hills and valleys better. Name transliterated from Shan Wikipedia မၢၼ်ႈမွၵ်ႇ

18. Kat Hsa (Katha) - Transliterated from Shan Wikipedia ၵၢတ်ႇသႃႇ

19. Tikang (Tigyaing or Htigyaing) - Transliterated from Shan wikipedia တီႈၶင်ႉ

20. Pangkaihpo (Pinlebu) - New location, split from Waing Hsö to represent the surrounding hills and to reduce its size. I've also given it a connection through the wasteland to Hpawngpang (Paungbyin). "Pang Kai Hpo" is given as the Shan name, but I removed the spaces

21. Waing Hsö (Wuntho) - Waing Hsö is given as the Shan name

Möng Kawng province

22. Möng Kawng (Mogaung) - Added a space

23. Möng Yang (Mohnyin) - The given Shan name. Also, in your original map Mohnyin has a typo

24. Sanakawng - Myitkyina wasn't called that until British rule. Jingpo oral tradition says the area used to be called Sana Kawng (this article is written in Jingpo but the language is supported on Google Translate now: https://researchdata.edu.au/kk2-0267-myitkyina-history-myitkyina/1601073) or Tsaya Kung (https://www.kachinlandnews.com/?p=28020). I went with Sanakawng (or just "Sana") because Shan Wikipedia still calls Myitkyina "ၸႄႈၼႃး" (Sana/Sena), and some Chinese sites call it Sinagong

25. Hsanghpo (Sinbo or Hsinbo) - New location, split from Möng Set and a small part of Möng Kawng to represent the surrounding hills. It might not be a great candidate because Sinbo was founded in the 18th century. Shan name transliterated from Shan Wikipedia သၢင်ႇၽူဝ်ႇ

26. Möng Set (Mosit) - The original name of this location (Möngyang) was just a clone of the neighbouring location, probably a leftover from EU4 which had it in the wrong place. Möng Set is mentioned under the Shwegu section of the Upper Burma Gazetteer

Putao province

27. Putao - The Shan name (ပူႇတႂ်း) is still Putao, although its mentioned that old name might have been "Putaung" or "Putawng" (since our Shan transliteration doesn't use "au"). The Jingpo name of the valley here is apparently "Gam Di" (from book "Institution of Kachin Duwaship")

28. Nam Kiu - Changed from Suamprabum, which was founded by the British. I couldn't really find any other settlements so I just named it after the river, Mali Hka in Jingpo or Nam Kiu in Shan (Nam Kiu is also the Shan name for the entire Irrawaddy)

29. Möng Tong - Changed from Injangyang, which was also founded by the British, or just before they came. There's a single paper (https://meral.edu.mm/records/2465) which says Injangyang used to be called Mong Tong, but I'm not sure how reliable it is. The Jingpo name for this region is "Hkahku"

30. Nam Tamai - Changed from Chibwe, which seems like a new town too. It's the name of a river again because I couldn't find anything, the river is called Nmai Hka in Jingpo and Nam Tamai in Shan https://www.himalayanclub.org/hj/11/6/ka-karpo-razi-burmas-highest-peak/

31. Waing Maw - Space added

Shan Highland area

Manmaw province

32. Möng Lai (Mole) - New location, split from Man Maw because it felt too big compared to its Yunnan neighbours. The name is based on the Mole Chaung (river) which flows from modern Laiza to its mouth a few miles north of Bhamo. Möng Lai is only given as the Jingpo name, and Menglai as the Chinese, but it's very obviously a Shan-origin name. https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/穆雷江 The Mong Mit chronicle mentions a settlement called "Molai", which could very possibly be referring to an ancient town which the river got its name from.

33. Man Maw (Bhamo) - Space added

34. Möng Leng (Mohlaing) - New location, split from Shwegu because a hill range separates the two areas and because Möng Leng later became an independent state for some time. Möng Leng was located in the Sinkan Chaung river valley

35. Hweku (Shwegu) - Transliterated from Shan Wikipedia ႁူၺ်ႈၵူႈ

36. Man Peng (Mabein) - Transliterated from Shan Wikipedia မၢၼ်ႈပဵင်း

37. Namhkam - unchanged

38. Möng Mit (Momeik) - added a space

Hsipaw province

39. Möng Long - spelling change

40. Hsum Hsai (Thonze) - Changed from Kyaukme, which didn't exist at the time. Hsum Hsai was an important town and sub-state of Hsipaw

41. Ongpawng (Onbaung) - Also known as Hsipaw (Thibaw) which was nearby. Hsipaw seems to have been either non-existent or very small before ~1600s, so Ongpawng would be the more correct form for 1337.

42. Möng Tung (Maington) - New location, split from Hsipaw because of the geography and because Möng Tung was an important town and sub-state of Hsipaw.

Hsenwi province

43. Namhsan - Unchanged. Also known as Om-yar in Palaung.

44. Möng Yin - New location, split from Hsenwi. I only really added it because I thought Hsenwi looked too big, but Möng Yin was also apparently a sub-state of Hsenwi.

45. Hsenwi (Theinni) - Unchanged

46. Möng Yaw - Changed from Lashio, which was either a tiny village or didn't exist before the 1800s.

47. Muse - Unchanged

48. Möng Si - New location, split from Muse because it was huge compared to some of its surroundings.

49. Tawnio - Also known as Taw Nio or Malipa. This name doesn't seem to exist on maps today, but it would've been in the same place as modern Laukkaing.

50. Möng Kun - Given as a Shan village in the Son Mu state. The location could also be called Möng Hit, another village

Monghsu province

51. Man Se - New location, split from Möng Yai and a small part of Lashio. I thought it made sense to add because of the geography and to reduce the size of Möng Yai. Man Se was an important village located near modern Nampawng

52. Tangyan - Split from Möng Yai because of the large hill tract splitting them apart, and because it became a sub-state separated from Möng Yai. Called "Tang Yan" in the Gazetteer

53. Möng Yai - Spelling change

54. Kehsi (Kyithi) - Technically called Kehsi Mansan (Kyithi Bansan)

55. Möng Hsu - Spelling change

56. Möng Nawng (Maingnaung) - Added a space

57. Keng Hkam (Kyaing Hkan) - Spelling change

Mongpai province

I rearranged the locations in this province and added 2 new ones, trying to separate them based on the different valleys in this region:

58. Lawksawk (Yatsauk) - Northern valley, Lawksawk is technically not in the northern valley but there wasn't a better name since Lawksawk always controlled that valley

59. Hsamönghkam (Thamaingkan or Thamakan) - The western valley and highlands, I also extended it a little further westwards into the wasteland and Pinle location since the valley extends further this way (e.g around modern Ywangan). There were a lot of small states and towns in this region, but Hsa Möng Hkam seems to be the oldest.

60. Yawnghwe (Nyaungshwe or Nyaungywa) - The central valley around Inle Lake. Taunggyi didn't exist before British rule, so that was removed.

61. Möng Ping (Maingpyin) - Some small valleys and their surrounding hills, north to modern Möng Lang and south to modern Hopong. This could also probably be called "Möng Pying" to avoid confusion with the other Möng Ping

62. Nawngwawn (Naungwun or Naungmon) - Eastern valley, Nawng Wawn seems to be the oldest important settlement

63. Möng Pai (Mobye) - Southern valley, not really changed from its original location, I just moved the border slightly further northwest

Mongnai province

64. Möng Küng (Maingkaing) - Added a space

65. Laihka (Legya) - Removed the space

66. Keng Tawng (Kyaingtaung) - Extended the border slightly further east into Möng Ton, this area was traditionally owned by the Keng Tawng sub-state (and looks better)

67. Möng Nai (Mone) - Spelling change

68. Mawkmai (Maukme) - Unchanged

69. Möng Pan (Maing Pan) - New location, split from Möng Ton and Mawkmai. The southern portion of this new location wasn't part of Mawkmai until the 1800s, so it's not necessary to include that as part of Mawkmai location

70. Möng Ton - Spelling change

Kengtung province

71. Möng Pu - New location, split from Möng Ping to reduce its size

72. Möng Ping - Spelling adjusted. Border extended into the northern portion of Keng Tung, this area is mountainous and completely cut off from Keng Tung so it makes more sense to go to Möng Ping

73. Möng Yang - Spelling adjusted

74. Keng Tung (Kyaingtong) - Name given a space. Border extended into the southern portion of Möng Yang, the mountains cut off this area from the rest of Möng Yang.

75. Möng Hsat - Unchanged

76. Möng Hpayak - Spelling adjusted

77. Möng Yawng - Spelling adjusted

Yunnan area

I haven't added any new locations in China because I think the density was fine (with the exception of Menglian province, which is partly in Myanmar and had large locations). I couldn't find names for some locations, if any Chinese speakers can help find Dai origin names then I could be able to help with translating them.

A lot of names here are still from the Upper Burma Gazetteer, so the same rule applies about that being the primary reference unless stated otherwise. Some names are transliterated directly from the Tai Nüa script https://www.omniglot.com/writing/dehongdai.htm, for which I've slightly adjusted a few letters based on the IPA to have them line up better with spellings from the Burma Gazetteer and main Shan State.

A list of place names with their Chinese counterparts can be found here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueang and here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koshanpye
I'll give those Chinese counterparts in brackets below.

Tengchong province

78. Santa (Zhanda)

79. Möng La (Yingjiang) - Can also be spelled Möng Na

80. Möng Myen (Tengchong) - Called Momien in Burmese.

81. Möng Ti (Lianghe)

Mangshi province

82. Möng Wan (Longchuan)

83. Möng Mao (Mengmao/Ruili)

84. Möng Hkawn (Mangshi) - Can also be spelled Möng Hkwan or Möng Kawn

Yongchang province

85. Möng Hkö (Lujiang) - Transliterated from ᥛᥫᥒᥰ ᥑᥫᥰ

86. Möng Sang (Yongchang/Baoshan) - Technically called "Meng Sang" in the Upper Burma Gazetteer, but I think "Meng" is very obviously just a Chinese reading of Möng. The Upper Burma Gazetteer also calls it Wan Chang in other places

87. Möng Long (Longling) - Can also be spelled Möng Lung

88. Möng Mo (Jiucheng) - Transliterated from ᥛᥫᥒᥰ ᥑᥫᥰ

89. Möng Hkeng (Zhenkang) - This one is only mentioned in the Upper Burma Gazetteer, where the Chinese name is spelt Chen Kang

Shunning province

90. Möng Htong (Changning) - Transliterated from ᥛᥫᥒᥰ ᥗᥨᥒᥴ

91. Möng Hten (Fengqing) - Transliterated from ᥛᥫᥒᥰ ᥗᥦᥢᥴ

Mengding province

92. Möng Ting (Mengding)

93. Möng Tum (Mengdong) - Transliterated from ᥛᥫᥒᥰ ᥖᥧᥛᥰ

94. Möng Möng (Mengmeng)

95. Möng Myen (Lincang) - Could also be spelled Möng Men

Menglian province

I have added 2 locations in this province on the modern Burmese side

(Burma side)

96. Man Hpang - New location, split from Pangyang because the original location was huge compared to its neighbours, and to represent the borders of the Mot Hai sub-state. Man Hpang was given as the capital city of Mot Hai

97. Pangyang - Border slightly extended eastwards

98. Man Pan - Renamed from Matman. Man Pan was given as the capital of the Maw Hpa sub-state

99. Panghseng - New location, split from Man Pan to reduce the size and to represent the borders of the Maw Hpa sub-state. The name is given as "Pang Hseng" in the Upper Burma Gazetteer, but I removed the space

(Chinese side)

100. Möng Ka (Mengka) - A Tai script name isn't actually given for this, but we can assume that Meng = Möng

101. Möng Lem (Menglian)

102. Möng Lam (Lancang) - Transliterated from ᥛᥫᥒᥰ ᥘᥣᥛᥰ

103. Möng Ngüm (Shangyun) - Transliterated from ᥛᥫᥒᥰ ᥒᥤᥛᥰ

Weiyuan province

104. Möng Ban (Mengban) - A Tai script name isn't given for this, again we can assume that Meng = Möng

Simao province

A lot of names below this point are from the book "Burmese Sources for Lan Na Thai history", where I've tried to place their names based on a map of Sipsongpanna (map). Unless stated otherwise, this is the source for all names below.

105. Möng La (Simao)

106. Keng Tong (Chiang Tong on the Map) - Could also just be named Möng Lie based on the original name (Menglie)

Cheli province

107. Keng Law (Chiang Lo on the linked map) - The Upper Burma Gazetteer also mentions Keng Law on the border with Mong La (In Burma, not any of the other Mong La's)

108. Möng Hai (Menghai)

109. Keng Hung (Jinghong) - also in Upper Burma Gazetteer

110. Möng Hing (Meng Hing on the map)

111. Möng Pang (Mengban) - I'm not 100% sure about this one, but it seems right

112. Möng La (Mengla) - This name is identical to Simao Möng La except for the tone marker, another name for this location could be "Möng Hpong" (Mengpeng) which is mentioned in the Upper Burma Gazetteer

113. Möng Hu No (Meng U-Nua on map) - Currently Yot Ou in-game. This could probably also just be called "Möng Hu", since I think the "No" is only there to distinguish it from "Möng Hu Haii" which is a few miles away

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The Situation in 1337

Countries

View attachment 1213794
General borders, don't take them as final, and sorry for the quality. The southeastern Shan states seem mostly correct for 1337, though the extreme south of Hsenwi might have been independent if I'm remembering right.

An interesting time period, Möng Mao is on the verge of huge conquests into all of the other Shan states, essentially uniting them into a confederation which would challenge Burma and China for the remaining century. The two most powerful states were Möng Mao and Möng Kawng, though it may not seem that way when first looking at the map - I'll elaborate more on population levels in another section.

According to the Shan chronicles, most Shan states in 1337 (including the Ahom) claim to have already been ruled by the dynasty from Möng Mao, the Mao dynasty or Hsö (tiger) clan. There are some exceptions to this, like in Kengtung and Chiang Hung, where they are ruled by the Mangrai dynasty of Lan Na. Some of the Shan chronicles can be found in the Gazetteer of Upper Burma, and I'd highly recommend Ney Elias's book "Introductory Sketch of the History of the Shans" (PDF: https://www.burmalibrary.org/sites/...e_shans_in_upper_burma_and_western_yunnan.pdf) which goes into details on the geneologies and rulers of multiple states.

Spoiler: Specific country details

Möng Mao owns the lands in the Nam Mao valley (Möng Mao, Namhkam, Muse) and probably a couple other neighbouring locations. It might be best to give them a few more locations in Yunnan unless there will be an event simulating their rise a few years after the start of the game, or lots of small Tusi states.

I haven't represented the exact borders of the Tusi states, because I have no clue what that would be. But there were seemingly a lot of small states which Möng Mao could easily invade.

Manmaw (Bhamo) has been removed and merged with Möng Mit, Bhamo only split from Möng Mit in 1470 (according to Ney Elias)

Möng Kawng and Möng Yang have been merged into one state, there are a lot of mentions of their histories being identical, with one state disappearing in records as soon as the other appears, which suggests this was just an alternating capital of the single state. Möng Kawng has also been extended into the Hukawng valley and up to the border with Ahom, the border between the two kingdoms was officially marked here in 1401, but that's only because the Ahom kingdom was considered a tributary state to Möng Kawng before then. https://www.jstor.org/stable/44142722

I added Hkamti Long as a subject of Möng Kawng due to its remote nature, it was technically only a province. It's not really clear when this region was settled by Shans, the Shan chronicles put it in the mid 13th century, but this is the only source. The thing about the Shan chronicles being the only source is that the exact same thing is true for the Ahom kingdom existing in 1337, so you end up in a situation where if you represent one, you have to represent the other.

I renamed Wuntho to Waing Hsö, which is the Shan name (that name is still given on Wikipedia so I think it's fine to change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuntho). In reference to this country, the Upper Burma Gazetteer briefly mentions that "no such state existed in the period of Shan domination" (i.e 1200-1500), but doesn't elaborate on this. If it really didn't exist, then this area would've been a part of the Möng Kawng-Möng Yang state.

I added Möng Küng (or Möng Küng Kwai) in the previously uncolonized area on the Chindwin river, Shan settlements were essentially synonymous with Shan state structures so I don't think any Shan-inhabited areas should be uncolonized. This area seems to have been conquered by Möng Kawng in the 1400s. The existence of this state is briefly mentioned in "The Early Syām and Rise of Mäng Mao" (https://so06.tci-thaijo.org/index.php/pub_jss/article/view/158133): "Thihathu thus had to repulse the troops of Onbaung and Maing-hkaing the first explicit mention by the Old Burmese inscription of the toponym of Tai origins other than Khanti and Tagaung" and then in the notes: "Onbaung is Ungpöng in Tai, modern Hsipaw (Sipö). Maing-hkaing (not to be confused with Maing-kaing located to the south of Hsipaw) should be either Mäng Khüng or Khäng in Tai, located in the vicinity of Wuntho to the west of the Irrawaddy." This is the same as the "Möng Küng" in my location notes, the modern Maing Kaing on the Chindwin. It's also mentioned in the Hsenwi chronicle as "Möng Küng Kwai", which might be a better name to avoid confusion.

Hkampat and Hsawnghsup have been added as 2 small states in the Kabaw valley, they're referenced in Meitei history: https://imphalreviews.in/the-bounda...nd-meitei-king-chaopha-hom-kingyamba-of-1740/

Cultures

Dai, Shan, and Ahom are essentially the same culture, and this would have been especially true in 1337. I'll elaborate below:

The "Dai" name is just a designation used by the Chinese government for Tai Nüa, Tai Lü, Tai Dam, and by extension all other Tai-speaking peoples. Tai Nüa is extremely similar to the Shan spoken in Shan state, and throughout history they viewed themselves as identical with the Shan in Burma, I think even today they don't view eachother very differently besides living in different countries. The same can be said for Tai Lü people, who share a lot in common with the Tai Khun people (who are already considered "Shan") in Kengtung. Tai Dam people are further in the east, in Vietnam and Laos, their language descends from the same branch as Shan, but I'm not sure if other aspects of their culture and history would be close enough to put them under the "Shan" label.

The Ahom people may seem different when you look at later history, but in 1337 they were essentially just another one of many Shan states. They shared a language, religion, state structure, food, and even the same ruling family. For reference of just how similar they were, the Shan dialect spoken in Muse shares more similarities with Ahom than it does with its neighbours a few miles south. (Reference: "Phonological Relationship Between Ahom and Tai Nua as Evidence Origin of the Ahom People" by Ranee Lertluemsai") However, I can see an argument for Ahom being a separate culture for flavour reason, because modern articles write Ahom names differently from Shan names (e.g. Sukaphaa in Ahom vs Hsö Ka Hpa in Shan), but that's all it really is, a historiography difference.

View attachment 1213796

The Jingpo people had not spread so far south yet in 1337, their original homeland was in the Tibetan plateau, and they began spreading southwards sometime between the 13th-17th century. The Upper Burma Gazetteer (linked above in the location details) mentions that there's no evidence that the Kachin (Jingpo) people lived any further south than Myitkyina until the late 18th century. This leaves a lot of locations that need their culture changed, because the Jingpo (and by extension, Lisu) people are present in a lot of locations they shouldn't be. The Hukawng valley (northwest of Mong Kawng) was entirely Shan until the 18th century, and the Patkai hills to the northwest had a small Shan population (around modern Pangsau) and a number of Naga tribes (as mentioned in the Ahom chronicles). In the current Mong Kawng, Bhamo, and Mong Mit, states, there wouldn't have been a Jingpo population at all, the same is probably true for Waingmaw and the Chinese locations directly east. Palaungs were possibly spread further around here, but I'm not sure, it's something to look into. There was also possibly a Shan presence in Putao (Hkamti Long).

A culture that could be added would be the Kadu people, who lived alongside the Shan in areas from Mong Kawng to Wuntho and possibly as far as Kale. The Kadu were valley-dwelling people like the Burmese and Shan, and were well respected among the Shan people, so they shouldn't be represented as tribal pops like some of the other cultures around here might be.

There was also a small presence of Shan people in the Burmese central valley. https://www.academia.edu/3768911/Cr...he_Ming_in_the_Tai_Frontier_Zone_1382_1454_77 "After Pagan’s collapse in the late thirteenth century until the pacification of the Shan hills by the First Toungoo Dynasty in the mid-sixteenth century, the valley’s northern and eastern frontiers lay open to waves of Shan [Tai] migrants, who settled in Yamethin, Meiktila, Toungoo, Ava, and Taungdwingyi districts. Although these irruptions killed some local cultivators and dislocated agriculture, they probably produced a net increase in the population of the lowlands, especially since many displaced Burmans simply moved south to open new lands in the Upper Irrawaddy delta and the Sittang corridor (Lieberman, 1991, 4)"


Religion

In this period, the Shan people did not practice Theravada Buddhism in any large numbers. Their beliefs were partially influenced by Buddhism, but this was from forms of Mahayana Buddhism, using Sanskrit instead of Pali and having certain practices unique to Mahayana. Most of their practices were still based around their traditional religion (Satsana Phi?) which included ancestor/spirit worship, animal sacrifices, a pantheon of deities, etc.

This changed in the 16th century during King Bayinnaung's reign, after conquering the Shan states he sent Burmese missionaries to the "heretic" Shan states, and from then on they became Theravada Buddhists.
(https://epress.nus.edu.sg/msl/reign/hong-wu/year-30-month-9-day-19) (https://www.burmalibrary.org/en/the-shans-vol-i (page 150))

Also, I noticed that you changed the Ahom religion from Satsana Phi to Phuralung. The Ahoms brought their religion from their original home in the Shan states, inviting scholars and priests who remained in contact with eachother for centuries to come. This change should either be reverted, or all of the Shan people should follow the "Phuralung" religion, because these were really just the same thing.


Population

The concentration of pops could be moved around a bit. The most important detail is that Mong Mao and Mong Kawng were (according to Shan, Burmese, and Chinese histories) the strongest states throughout the time period, due to their positions in very fertile and populated valleys. For some sort of reference, Captain Hannay remarked in 1836 that Bhamo (Manmaw) was the largest town he had seen in Burma, and in Volume 1 of the Gazetteer of Upper Burma, this is said about Mong Kawng: "Here it is only necessary to say that the town of Mogaung bears every appearance of having once been a large and very thriving centre. Its area is considerably larger than that of Bhamo and it contains several miles of paved streets." There's also other forms of evidence, such as the war between Mong Kawng and the Ahom Kingdom in 1401 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudangphaa), in this war the countries were essentially an equal match for eachother, which seems crazy when you look at the map and see Mong Kawng with a population of 4k and Ahom with a population of 300k.


Other details

I think a market should be added to upper Burma, the Tea Horse road was very active during this period, and was sometimes competitive with the sea routes. Some historians speculate that the migrations of the Shan west and the expansion of Mong Mao were both directly tied to these trade routes (https://so06.tci-thaijo.org/index.php/pub_jss/article/view/158133) Trade in central Burma was apparently not very active in this time, which is why I would suggest Man Maw (Bhamo) being the market center. Bhamo was an important center on the trade route because it's the point where the overland trade route combines with the trade sailing up and down the Irrawaddy, and many states would fight over control for it.

On Shan names (of people) try to keep track of what language a name has been translated from, as an example, the Shan ruler "Hsö Hkan Hpa" might have his name written as "Si Kefa" in Chinese, "Thohanbwa" in Burmese, or something like "Sukanphaa" in Ahom. Another thing to note on Shan names is that the parts "Hsö", "Sao", "Hpa", and some others are royal titles, and shouldn't be included as names of random peasants

Also, if the art people need any help with flag designs or other aesthetics, here are some inspirations for the Shan states:
- Möng Kawng (meaning Drum Town) had the symbol of a drum-shaped sapphire, according to a legend this sapphire was found on the site of the town and then passed down in the royal family.
- Möng Yang (Crane Town) had the symbol of a crane (bird, not the machinery) from the same legend.
- Möng Mit (Dagger Town) was founded on the site where a dagger struck into the ground, according to the same legend.
- Möng Mao means "Dizzy Town", but their rulers come from the "Hsö" clan, meaning tiger.
- Waing Hsö (Tiger City)
- Hkamti Long (Great Land of Gold)
- Hkampat (Gold Necklace)
- Möng Küng (Lac Town) or Möng Küng Kwai (Kwai meaning buffalo)
- Hsipaw (Four Pots / Four Corners)
- Hsenwi was sometimes called "Hsenwi Hsi-Hsö" (Country of the Four Tigers)

And finally, the Gazetteer of Upper Burma and the Shan States (linked above in the location list) is also a great source on the population levels, ethnic make-up, raw materials and industries, and terrain for individual settlements in the 19th century, so it's a good place to check everything.

Thank you, very extensive info, we'll take a look at it.