Tinto Maps #25 - 8th of November 2024 - South East Asia

[bitmapmedivh]

So, pun-based Achievement proposals:

Mizo Soup - As any Japanese tag, make Mizo the majority religion in all Japanese locations.

So Moist - Have Moist as your dominant religion while having at least one natural harbor with development below 2 on all continents.

 

[ArVass]

@Roger Corominas, can we get a screenshot of Blue Yüán and its tributaries when you change it colour?

Also, can we get a towns and cities map please?

 

[Mr_Unicon]

The map is almost perfect but there is one minor issue. I would suggest splitting the island of Phu Quoc ( Kol Tral ) away from Peam as its own location. This island has a historical connection to Vietnam alongside Cambodia. When expanding south as Dai Viet, letting Phu Quoc as its own location will make the map much more accurate if the player is aiming for a mordern day border. Although this is a very small change, I would love to hear the devs response to my proposal, mabye refining the current map a bit more

 

[ComradeKroo]

Empire of Dai Viet has 400-500k soldier in the war against Yuan Empire, then they only have 875k population? They HAD 4-5 millions ppl in 13th century, triple the size of "empire" like Khmer.

 

[Streamlet]

Ari Buddhism still has some presence in Burma, especially the central-northern regions, along with some animist practices. In the simplest way this could probably be represented as a Mahayana minority or a generic Bamar religion like "Natism"

 

[Freshplayer]

don't believe every words of medieval historians, numbers from them are mostly exaggerated, maybe you just a nationalist idk

Basically it may include the manpower for logistics.

The Chinese sources indicated in the third invasion Mongols sent about 100k soldiers but Vietnamese historians recorded it 300k. Champa was also involved in the war as a Vietnamese ally. Vietnamese sources also claimed that over 500k Mongols were sent to Vietnam in the second invasion, while the Chinese sources showed total 400k men were levied for logistics. It is obviously that these manpowers in logistics are not enought to support a 500k troop, given the example the 1:4 ratio between manpower in battleground and in logistics of Song China. Modern Vietnamese historian Trần Trọng Kim estimated in Việt Nam sử lược (Brief History of Vietnamese, p88 in 1958 Chinese translation) that Vietnam mobilized over 200k men in the first Mongol invasion.

In a nutshell, there can't be 400-500k vietnamese troops in Vietnam but about 200k in a modern estimate. If this is the Scraping the Barrel mode in HOI4 (25% Recruitable Population ), the total population should be about 800k.

 

[hoangden]

Basically it may include the manpower for logistics.

The Chinese sources indicated in the third invasion Mongols sent about 100k soldiers but Vietnamese historians recorded it 300k. Champa was also involved in the war as a Vietnamese ally. Vietnamese sources also claimed that over 500k Mongols were sent to Vietnam in the second invasion, while the Chinese sources showed total 400k men were levied for logistics. It is obviously that these manpowers in logistics are not enought to support a 500k troop, given the example the 1:4 ratio between manpower in battleground and in logistics of Song China. Modern Vietnamese historian Trần Trọng Kim estimated in Việt Nam sử lược (Brief History of Vietnamese, p88 in 1958 Chinese translation) that Vietnam mobilized over 200k men in the first Mongol invasion.

In a nutshell, there can't be 400-500k vietnamese troops in Vietnam but about 200k in a modern estimate. If this is the Scraping the Barrel mode in HOI4 (25% Recruitable Population ), the total population should be about 800k.

Official sources have pointed out that the Tran dynasty had a 100k-strong army in peacetime and mobilized up to 200k in the wars against the Mongols, and this is fighting troops, not logistics. There is absolutely no way a population of 800k can support a 200k army, it does not make sense. Furthermore, Dai Viet is at its height in the early 1300s. Even after wars, famine, and many catastrophes, Dai Viet still had 2-3M population in the late 1300s, and sources in the Ho dynasty estimated the population to be around 4M in the early 1400s).

The Lam Sơn rebellion against the Ming mobilized 350k troops. This means that the population has to be from 3-5M. You can refer to my previous post on page 7 for sources and analysis (and I think the 1.6M-2.4M figures are underestimating the real population a little bit, many other sources have claimed 4-5M, a reasonable estimate should be 3-3.3M). Other people also give more reasonable estimates about the population of other kingdoms in the area.

 

[Freshplayer]

Official sources have pointed out that the Tran dynasty had a 100k-strong army in peacetime and mobilized up to 200k in the wars against the Mongols, and this is fighting troops, not logistics. There is absolutely no way a population of 800k can support a 200k army, it does not make sense. Furthermore, Dai Viet is at its height in the early 1300s. Even after wars, famine, and many catastrophes, Dai Viet still had 2-3M population in the late 1300s, and sources in the Ho dynasty estimated the population to be around 4M in the early 1400s).

The Lam Sơn rebellion against the Ming mobilized 350k troops. This means that the population has to be from 3-5M. You can refer to my previous post on page 7 for sources and analysis (and I think the 1.6M-2.4M figures are underestimating the real population a little bit, many other sources have claimed 4-5M, a reasonable estimate should be 3-3.3M). Other people also give more reasonable estimates about the population of other kingdoms in the area.

You should not make your own estimates unless you have better modern sources to prove it. I didn’t make any estimates about population yet but to correct your military data based on historical and modern sources.

The population of 800k could be true in an extreme game setting as I said, but it’s of very least possibility. The population should be higher but I don’t to what degree it should increase without reliable sources.

However, that doesn’t prove your estimate is more reasonable. Claiming to be authority, or arguementum ad verecundiam, won’t help in establishing your hypothesis. I also proves that the so-called “official sources” of historical texts are questionable and contradictory to other sources, many of which also claims to be “official sources”.

 

[Mef]

We discussed this before, the sources cited here estimate around 2.4 million in the Red River Delta and around 3 million for Dai Viet in total.
If you're suggesting that it should be 4-5 million instead, you should provide sources for that.

 

[Otto_III]

The Terrain portion of the map for Laos and Burma seems like it has too much flatland. It seems like there should be more hills in that area.

 

[MarcusSolarita]

Basically it may include the manpower for logistics.

The Chinese sources indicated in the third invasion Mongols sent about 100k soldiers but Vietnamese historians recorded it 300k. Champa was also involved in the war as a Vietnamese ally. Vietnamese sources also claimed that over 500k Mongols were sent to Vietnam in the second invasion, while the Chinese sources showed total 400k men were levied for logistics. It is obviously that these manpowers in logistics are not enought to support a 500k troop, given the example the 1:4 ratio between manpower in battleground and in logistics of Song China. Modern Vietnamese historian Trần Trọng Kim estimated in Việt Nam sử lược (Brief History of Vietnamese, p88 in 1958 Chinese translation) that Vietnam mobilized over 200k men in the first Mongol invasion.

In a nutshell, there can't be 400-500k vietnamese troops in Vietnam but about 200k in a modern estimate. If this is the Scraping the Barrel mode in HOI4 (25% Recruitable Population ), the total population should be about 800k.

I agree with your first paragraph but not the second. Vietnam use 寓兵於農 (soldier in agriculture), in this system the gorverment will rally 1/5 male population for military training and send them back home in harvest and sow time (in peace time), this allow them to rally 8-10% population in war. 25% like HOI4 can only use in modern time when agriculture, logistic & military production have been improved by technology, 8-10% is the max number a medieval goverment can rally, after Ming-Viet war in 1407, the census after war showed that Vietnam have 3m "civilized" people (civilized = people with sinic culture) and 2m "barbarian" (people don't follow sinic culture) make total population to 5m in 1407, Ming dynasty also rally about 200k troop for this campagin (not include supply force) to deal with a nation with lower 1m population was unnecessary and wasteful so the number 800k total population of Dai Viet in 1337 is unrealistic.
Ps: the number 5m of Ming may be a fake for raising tax

 

[ComradeKroo]

Most of countries in Medieval era can mobilized and support about 1-2% of their population to troops for war, but Vienamese or Mongols are exceptions. For Vietnamese, they can mobilized about 10% of their Pops for war (all male from 13 to 40 years old).
Compare to other countries in South East Asia at 13-14th centuries, Dai Viet has 4-5 million pops, Champa suprisingly has 1.5-2m pops, and Khmer only 1-1.5m pop.

don't believe every words of medieval historians, numbers from them are mostly exaggerated, maybe you just a nationalist idk

Stop saying nonsense, u cant show better or more trust worthy sources, and i never rely on "medieval historians" things u said.
The 2nd and 3rd invasion of Yuan had 150k soldier and 300k logistic support each. Rely on the number of troops the Yuan had halted Japan invasion, and number of troops that they can gathered to invade Indonesia, the number of troops that Yuan had to prepared to invade Dai Viet is not exagrated. Logistic support manpower used to carry food, build road, bridge, infrastructure and camp, fort, ... will turn into soldier if its needed.

the number 5m of Ming may be a fake for raising tax

U know it, that all governor will always reduce the true number to have a portion of taxes go to their private pocket.

 

[ComradeKroo]

Basically it may include the manpower for logistics.

The Chinese sources indicated in the third invasion Mongols sent about 100k soldiers but Vietnamese historians recorded it 300k. Champa was also involved in the war as a Vietnamese ally. Vietnamese sources also claimed that over 500k Mongols were sent to Vietnam in the second invasion, while the Chinese sources showed total 400k men were levied for logistics. It is obviously that these manpowers in logistics are not enought to support a 500k troop, given the example the 1:4 ratio between manpower in battleground and in logistics of Song China. Modern Vietnamese historian Trần Trọng Kim estimated in Việt Nam sử lược (Brief History of Vietnamese, p88 in 1958 Chinese translation) that Vietnam mobilized over 200k men in the first Mongol invasion.

In a nutshell, there can't be 400-500k vietnamese troops in Vietnam but about 200k in a modern estimate. If this is the Scraping the Barrel mode in HOI4 (25% Recruitable Population ), the total population should be about 800k.

Ratio 1:4 of Song Chinese is not applied here, because Chinese armies move and fight on huge flatland terrain, and somewhat lack of supplies from navies. North of Vietnam terrain is very different, and Yuan armies use 30-50% of their supplies from navies, so, men needed for supplies land armies reduced to ratio 1:2.
Another factor, is Dai Viet and Yuan 2nd and 3rd war is not about decisive battles, but they fought series of multiple battles across hundreds of strategic points, those points are river, towns, villages and forts, ... they need a big number of self sustainable troops, then 500k men for each side is needed to field and hold a long front line of 300km and hundreds strategic spots. The key of war is who lost their strategic factors first, like defensive spots, food, or moral will lose. Vietnamese successfuly destroyed the food supply chains of Yuan, defeat weakened enemies in big battles, then force Yuan to flee, thats why they won.

 

[zeruosi]

There are too many green countries on the map of Asia. How about we color the Great Yuan Blue and the Great Ming Red, which is opposed to the Yuan?

Da Yuan should be white gold, because according to the traditional scheme, Da Yuan belongs to gold

 

[Hentai_Templar]

It seems like country colours being similar is an unavoidable problem with there being so many tags. Maybe adding a way for the player to change the colour of any country while playing could be a way to ensure the problem could always be solved, it could also help roleplay, appease people who have a different colour preference for certain countries from the one chosen by you, and help people with vision problems.

I'm sorry if this has already been suggested or is infeasible. This is my first time commenting here.

 

[hoangden]

You should not make your own estimates unless you have better modern sources to prove it. I didn’t make any estimates about population yet but to correct your military data based on historical and modern sources.

The population of 800k could be true in an extreme game setting as I said, but it’s of very least possibility. The population should be higher but I don’t to what degree it should increase without reliable sources.

However, that doesn’t prove your estimate is more reasonable. Claiming to be authority, or arguementum ad verecundiam, won’t help in establishing your hypothesis. I also proves that the so-called “official sources” of historical texts are questionable and contradictory to other sources, many of which also claims to be “official sources”.

As I have mentioned, I have provided analysis and sources by modern historians in my previous posts in page 7. Feel free to examine them.

There are also Chinese sources like Ming zhilu that gave estimates 4-5M population. The 3M-3.3M that I gave alongside other people is a moderate estimate from both Chinese and Western sources alike. Feel free to examine the sources and evidence and we can discuss further.

 

[Pescavelho]

It's also nice that you guys fixed the name order issue though ("[adjective] Empire" rather than "Empire of [country]").

While on the topic of names and name formats. I should probably post this on the China feedback, but Yuán appears here so I'll just ask: why are the Chinese Empire tags named "[Name] Dynasty" and not "Great [Name]"? Seems peculiar to get them a custom longform name and then not bother to make it the official one. Aren't dynasties a separate mechanic too? Could be confusing.

 

[zeruosi]

I thought Yuan should be red, whereas Ming is yellow

There is no reason for Yuan to be red and Ming to be yellow, except for the default color of EU4

 

[zeruosi]

Rely on the number of troops the Yuan had halted Japan invasion,

What, what are you talking about. Did Yuan prevent Japan's invasion? Shouldn't it be the invasion of Japan by Yuan?

 

[Streamlet]

I would rename the Kachin area into Upper Irrawaddy, Kachin feels a bit out of place in the game because it wasn't used until the 1880s, and the traditional "Kachin region" only covers the eastern half of this area anyway.

---

A lot of Shan location names could be relatively easy to translate into other Tai languages (and vice-versa) if that's something you want to do. For example, some common place names from Shan into Thai:
Möng -> Mueang
Keng -> Chiang
Man/Wan -> Ban
Wying/Weng -> Wiang

And some letter equivalents:
hp -> ph
ht -> th
hs -> s
è -> ae
(there's definitely more, but I'm not as familiar with Thai transliteration)

Some real examples:
Möng Hpayak = Mueang Phayak
Keng Hung = Chiang Rung
Keng Hsèn = Chiang Saen