Tinto Maps #26 - 15th of November 2024 - Indonesia

[AHumpierRogue]

The closest thing to this seems Tribal pops. They just don't do anything and basically cannot be interacted with any meaningful ways it seems

Yeah, true. Though I feel it's a bit incongruous with SoP's being a thing, and being able to live on territory that is otherwise owned by a state society. I feel like it should be possible for there to be a difference here. Like, I'm thinking the distinction between something like say, Turkoman pops living in Anatolia vs siberian tribesmen living in a territory in the Russian far east which are not already part of an SoP. They should not instantly become tribesmen of Russia even if the location becomes theirs. Same with say tribesmen in this part of the world I imagine, they probably shouldn't instantly become considered subjects of the expanding states. Also for America, I assume there will be at least a few non SoP Pops in the America's(or Africa, for that matter), colonizing the territory should not instantly make those pops subject to the colonizing country. There should probably be some sort of process for dealing with them.

 

[Banda_connoisseur]

The size of the islands as a whole would definitely fit as a location. I think that IF they choose to rework the spice raw good, they should also add this location as well.

I am wondering though, what would stop ternate from making a sprawling colonial empire using the wealth of controlling the market of origin of nutmeg and cloves? Would pop limitations be enough? Besides, given the huge spread of control via sea, I would assume that such wealth could be in principle obtained and secured by the winner of the western Indonesia power struggle, especially using Javanese population.

This did actually happen to an extent, in that Ternate gained various degrees of control and influence over the islands around the Banda Sea into the 16th century.

Their big problem was called 'the sultanate of Tidore'. Tidore was the other major producer of cloves (Ternate and Tidore together controlled basically all of the clove production before the Europeans showed up). They basically spent the 16th and 17th centuries in more or less constant conflict, keeping each other in check. Both were in fact pretty powerful regional players at this point: Ternate frequently involved itself in the politics of the southern Philippines.

 

[GastonEstBonne]

I would not call the Minangkabau religion "Adat" because it means "Traditions" and it is a widely used word everywhere in Indonesia.

I will not use Kepercayaan at all because it is a modern term used by the Traditionalists which has a lot of political connotation. I don't think using anachronism is necessary when there are already local religions that somewhat cover that. Even if you want to use it to represent "syncretism", you should use "Aliran Kepercayaan" instead of just "Kepercayaan" because "Kepercayaan" = Faith, while "Aliran Kepercayaan" = Way of Faith. "Aliran Kepercayaan" is how the traditionalists describe themselves anyway.

There are two major groups of "religions" you can use in Java instead of "Aliran Kepercayaan": Sunda Wiwitan and Kejawen.

Sunda Wiwitan is the monotheistic (not animist) native religion of the Sundanese people that is still in practice today despite not being approved by the government. Still, these people technically don't violate the constitution since the Indonesian constitution approves (only) monotheistic religions.

Kejawen is technically not a single religion. In fact, it is not even a religion at all. It is how the people refer to sets of mystic practices in Java, which are widely varied from one block of the island to the next. If you really want to group a religion in Java, you should use Kejawen because this is more widely used nowadays and how the Javanese people describe this "religion" in modern time as well, while Aliran Kepercayaan has a lot more political connotation it.

Now, Hindu and Buddhism, I know the game itself has its own limitations, so I am saying this just as food for thought instead of "change this!". Technically you are correct to make Javanese Hindu in a sense, that everyone in Indonesia should be Hinduist because Hindu culture persists in the archipelago and only recently getting pushed back by a certain group of religion (you know who you are). I need to also note that many people also practice Buddhism in Java in tandem with Hinduism because, well, as I said, everyone is technically Hinduist, and even later after the people converted to Islam, they were technically still a Hinduist

Specifically for Buddhism, what I want to note, is that a lot of practices in Indonesia, religion-wise, not just for Buddhism, often incorporate local mystic practices which made every religion that ever existed there, except Christianity, different than their counterpart in the rest of the world by how much the religion incorporate local traditions. So for Buddhism, I'd suggest differentiating the Buddhism practiced there other than "Mahayana" (Using Vajrayana also works if you want to differentiate Tibetan Buddhism, though it is not exactly representative of Indonesian Buddhism, or Buddhism in general).

I appreciate the response, did not know that Aliran Kepercayaan was politically loaded nor did I know Adat was so general, so thank you. I just called it Kepercayaan because I was under the impression that it was widely used, government recognized, and couldn't find any better terms. I just want to clarify that although Java in particular has unique terms for their particular syncretism, those faiths just aren't helpful for the rest of the peoples of Southeast Asia. I just wanted to point out that Southeast Asia was much like China in having many religions practiced simultaneously and melting into each other for the most part while all being underlined by the local indigenous faiths. So it should be treated like China, given a broad umbrella faith that allows the syncretism and religious diversity to exist fully within it (which is why I proposed mechanical changes to Sanjiao/Mahayana in the China maps so the mechanic system could be broadly adaptable rather than the narrow Buddhism vs Confucianism they sadly put in the game). From what I know this is just as true throughout all of Southeast Asia and not just Java. Giving each ethnic group their own religion would likely lead to no content for them (except maybe Java) and lead to what was as far as I know a largely shared religious sphere with unique bedrock depending on the local culture being transformed into fully separate religions that are hostile and fully alien to one another which from what little I know is partly ahistorical (i.e. If Majapahit ruled other Hindu/Buddhist places it would be easier for them than if they ruled Australia due to religious familiarity even if the folk traditions, in particular, are radically distinct, ethnic religious differences would still be mechanically represented through cultural intolerance mechanics). Obviously, ideally, a pop should have multiple religions yet they can't so I think 'Aliran Kepercayaan' or whatever you wanna name it is the best pragmatic compromise that gives an accurate picture at a glance. If you or somebody else has an alternative name I'd support it as the name is impertinent to me. Again I appreciate the reply, I just want to clarify my position.

 

[ArVass]

Yeah, true. Though I feel it's a bit incongruous with SoP's being a thing, and being able to live on territory that is otherwise owned by a state society. I feel like it should be possible for there to be a difference here. Like, I'm thinking the distinction between something like say, Turkoman pops living in Anatolia vs siberian tribesmen living in a territory in the Russian far east which are not already part of an SoP. They should not instantly become tribesmen of Russia even if the location becomes theirs. Same with say tribesmen in this part of the world I imagine, they probably shouldn't instantly become considered subjects of the expanding states. Also for America, I assume there will be at least a few non SoP Pops in the America's(or Africa, for that matter), colonizing the territory should not instantly make those pops subject to the colonizing country. There should probably be some sort of process for dealing with them.

The way they explained how colonization works, implies imo that the tribal pops that live in freshly colonized lands don't automatically become actually part of the colonizing country, unless they are converted into peasants or something.

 

[GameBoi]

Hope that the area of Philippines can be named after a pre-colonial name, for example Luzon. Even if it is not that representative for the entire region, it is at least better than using an anachronistic name that breaks the immersion...

Back when Mandate of Heaven came out and updated SE Asia, someone was really insistent about naming the southern Philippines culture/region "Bangsamoro" to the point of lashing out at other SE Asians saying their countries and identities didn't even exist yet while his did. The fact is choosing a local name tends to be divisive, and interpreted as elevating one of the local groups above others, and will upset people. The current name does this the least.

From a Filipino standpoint the most famous example I can think of is "Maharlika" (Merdeka in Malay) which means independence/power, but as others from the region will be quick to say - that is itself an anachronism, and is politically sensitive for reasons and because it is a loanword from Sanskrit written and pronounced slightly differently in all Philippine languages. The arguments over that would be in the same vain as the dispute between calling the US "America" or strictly "Estados Unidos" in LatAm, or Turkey/Turkiye.

 

[jinggachingu]

I appreciate the response, did not know that Aliran Kepercayaan was politically loaded nor did I know Adat was so general, so thank you. I just called it Kepercayaan because I was under the impression that it was widely used, government recognized, and couldn't find any better terms. I just want to clarify that although Java in particular has unique terms for their particular syncretism, those faiths just aren't helpful for the rest of the peoples of Southeast Asia. I just wanted to point out that Southeast Asia was much like China in having many religions practiced simultaneously and melting into each other for the most part while all being underlined by the local indigenous faiths. So it should be treated like China, given a broad umbrella faith that allows the syncretism and religious diversity to exist fully within it (which is why I proposed mechanical changes to Sanjiao/Mahayana in the China maps so the mechanic system could be broadly adaptable rather than the narrow Buddhism vs Confucianism they sadly put in the game). From what I know this is just as true throughout all of Southeast Asia and not just Java. Giving each ethnic group their own religion would likely lead to no content for them (except maybe Java) and lead to what was as far as I know a largely shared religious sphere with unique bedrock depending on the local culture being transformed into fully separate religions that are hostile and fully alien to one another which from what little I know is partly ahistorical (i.e. If Majapahit ruled other Hindu/Buddhist places it would be easier for them than if they ruled Australia due to religious familiarity even if the folk traditions, in particular, are radically distinct, ethnic religious differences would still be mechanically represented through cultural intolerance mechanics). Obviously, ideally, a pop should have multiple religions yet they can't so I think 'Aliran Kepercayaan' or whatever you wanna name it is the best pragmatic compromise that gives an accurate picture at a glance. If you or somebody else has an alternative name I'd support it as the name is impertinent to me. Again I appreciate the reply, I just want to clarify my position.

I totally understand. My comments were not made in bad faith either, I actually agree with you in your original post that I replied, and I share the same concerns as well, which is why I only suggest dividing it into 2 different groups that the dev themselves already split (the Sundanese and the Javanese) because it would be "more" representative.

 

[zernover]

ada indonesia coy

 

[wkscrombie]

Having spices as one or multiple resources is something that has been appearing in discussions now and again. Having them grouped was better for some aspects of the gameplay, but as always, everything is still subject to change.

It'd be much more interesting/offer much more diverse and strategic gameplay if spices are differentiated.

 

[King_Potat]

Sulawesi, Selayar Islands, and the Maluku Islands Cultural and Religious Groupings and Suggestions for Minorities:

All groupings have been made based on glottolog entries and classifications, given how many cultural divergences in game are based on linguistic differences. All additions were made on the basis that either, they were a significantly large enough group that they should be represented, or that they were divergent enough to warrant their own culture and religion. Given that there is little to nothing on the cultural and religious demographics in 1337 (which I am assuming are more or less similar given the popularity of ethno-religions in undeveloped and isolated places with many people groups), I am using my best guess based on their general historical location as well as how many people live there now compared to other areas in Sulawesi (poor method, but it's all there is, used citypopulation.de for population capacity).

Yellow means either info about minorities or a new culture not having been shown on the map mode yet.

Northern Kaili Wolio:
- Pamona (small minority in bungku to represent the tombelala)
- Kaili
- Topoiyo (large minority in Kurri Kurri) (different from the other northern kaili groups and geographically isolated)

Southern Kaili Wolio:
- Wolio (small minority in kotano muna, and kutung) (quite distinct from the rest of buton and muna, being a part of a separate branch entirely despite having the same endonym as tukang besi and cia-cia. Kamaru is small enough it can be wrapped in with Wolio)
- Loa’kalao (combo of kalao and laiyolo, two very similar cultures) (sizeable minority in selayar Islands location instead of makasarese) (heavily distinct from makasarese)
- Wotu (small minority in malila) (heavily distinct from all surrounding cultures)

Eastern Celebic:
- Mori
- Buton (should have decent minority in Selayar Islands to account for the bonerate)
- Bungku (should have decent amount of minorities in sambandate)
- Saluan (should have una una as a majority, una una is not pamona)
- Banggai (should have decently small minorities in bulakan)
- Tolaki
- Moronene
- Muna
- Taliabu (includes kadai) (decent size minority in taliabu, and small minority in sanana)
- Tomini (large minorities in donggala and the location to the right of donggala that I can’t read)

Gorontalo:
- Gorontalo (large minorities in the location to the left of amurang)

Mongondow:
- Mongondow

Note: Gorontalo and Mongondow could be combined into a Gorontalo-Mongondow group, although I don’t recommend this given their unintelligibility with each other

Minahasan:
- Minahasan
- Mongdondowic (small minority in belang, amurang, and manado)

Sangiric:
- Ratahan (includes batnik) (large minority in manado)
- Talaud
- Sangil-Sangir/Sangil (majroity in sangihe island, decent size minority in sarangani)

Totoli (heavily distinct from surrounding cultures and languages):
- Totoli (large minority in toli toli)
- Boano (decent minority in tomini)

South Sulawesi:
- Torajan (decent size minorities in mamudju and balanipa, small minorities in malangke)
- Mandar
- Buginese (small minorities in matano, kolumbu, and mori, as well as small minorities in jongkong [in borneo] to represent the embaloh and taman people)
- Makasarese (decent size minorities in senrana and sengkae, small minorities in bone)
- Massenrempulu (large enough to be considered its own group) (large minority in toraja, decent size minority in bungi and sidenreng)

Seko (entire group varies heavily from the South Sulawesi group, and should be given its own one):
- Seko (decent size minority in kurri kurri)
- Badaic-Lemolang/Badaic (small minority in malangke, decent size minority in pos)

Note: Rampi would have been included, but they reside almost entirely in wasteland, so better to not add them.

Maluku:
- Sula
- Buru
- Ambelau (quite different from both Sula and Buru) (decent size minority in tifu, small minority in kayeli)

Nunusaku:
- Kayeli (differs greatly from those around it) (decent size minority in kayeli)
- Seramese (get rid of majority in all locations east of latu, plus small minority in the location directly east of latu, and large minority in sahulau)
- Amalumute (includes wemale) (differs greatly from seramese) (majority in sahulau, small minorities in nunusaku and the location to the south of it)
- Patakai-Manusela (differs greatly from seramese) (majroity in nunusaku, small minorites in the locations south and west of nunusaku)

Seram Laut (group added because these are definitely not seramese, not even closely related or affiliated. This group should also extend into papua new guinea slightly):
- Banda-Geser (majority in the rest of the locations east of nunusaku, except the location who owns the eastern point of maluku)
- (East) Seram (majority in the location that has the eastern point of maluku)

Bakan (or maybe a group with other malaysian creoles, but bacan malay is very different to them so I put them in their own group):
- Bakan (should not be majority in obi, probably large minority)

South Halmahera (should have more cultures in west papua with this group):
- Maba (small minorities in tidore)

North Halmahera:
- Tobelo (+ large minority on obi, decent size minority in the location south-west of loloda)
- Tidore
- Galela (+ majority on obi)
- The other one that I can’t read, I am assuming its Ternate
- Moi (very different from the ones of its group) (decent size minority in game, small minority in tidore)
- Sahuan (different enough from Tobelo to be differentiated) (majority in the location south-west of loloda)

Note: North halmahera cannot be combined with south halmahera, despite the naming conventions these two groups are not very similar or related to each other and should not be combined.

As a byproduct of these groupings, we can see some larger cultural blocs, most notably the South Sulawesi group, and the Eastern Celebic group which collectively own most of Sulawesi, except the north-eastern tip. Small disparate groupings like the South Kaili-Wolio, and all the isolated groups have quite a bit of power, but are largely disconnected from most of their neighbors, all while decently conformed groups like Nunusaku, North Halmahera, and Northern Kaili-Woilio have a geographic bloc.

 

[moatman15]

I'd suggest adding some Dayak society of pops in Borneo. Even to this day, some Dayak tribes still retain their own political laws and system even under Indonesian or Malaysian rule. Another group that could do with society of pops is probably Baduy people in Banten area, which maintains their isolation even to this day. Since you put Orang Rimba in, I wonder why you dont make them Society of Pops but do it for Orang Asli, when they are in pretty similar situation.

Also a lot of Indonesian native "animist" faith practice headhunting. Food for thought.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

I was expecting more spices...

 

[RubicoPt]

About spices, another way to put It, would be a continental/regional split: african spices, asian spices, european spices, american spices. The more types/variety, the happier the pops

 

[Paulatim]

Anybody knows where to find an estimate of the

About spices, another way to put It, would be a continental/regional split: african spices, asian spices, european spices, american spices. The more types/variety, the happier the pops

Apparently they shitted and ignored this idea because "it is too basic" or "you don't understand, market only works if you split goods by value with bad, medium and highly spices, so you can play as an antitrust agent" or something.

 

[slupie]

About spices, another way to put It, would be a continental/regional split: african spices, asian spices, european spices, american spices. The more types/variety, the happier the pops

Anybody knows where to find an estimate of the

Apparently they shitted and ignored this idea because "it is too basic" or "you don't understand, market only works if you split goods by value with bad, medium and highly spices, so you can play as an antitrust agent" or something.

Splitting spices to differentiate the truly rare spices from more common spices would be great, but splitting spices geographically would be a terrible solution.

There are lots of spices from different continents which fill the same role as those from other continents - chili peppers, grains of paradise/malagueta peppers, and black peppercorns all add a spicy/piquant flavor and were all named pepper because of this despite coming from different regions. They should all provide the same raw good, because that's functionally how they worked in the spice trade.

 

[Baphomet enjoyer]

Paradox recognizes the 9 dash line! It's so over ASEAN bros

 

[pansitkanton]

Paradox don't get yourselves cooked by ASEAN governments

Areas
View attachment 1214378
The name of the sea is still encroaching on the land, but this will be solved eventually. Fortunately, the islands make it quite easy to define the areas in this region.

 

[coconutboat]

Paradox recognizes the 9 dash line! It's so over ASEAN bros

Paradox don't get yourselves cooked by ASEAN governments

Form Srivijaya, get claims on everything, go all the way up to Beijing

 

[Mef]

Yeah that "South China Coastline" extending all the way down into the South China Sea looks absurd. Why not just make the sea a sea area and keep the coastline at the actual coastline? To compensate for the lost size, the South China Coastline area could be expanded to include Fujian and Taiwan.

The coast of Malaya should probably belong to the Indonesia Coast as well, since it has historically (and today) been counted as part of Maritime Southeast Asia and currently the Strait of Malacca is split in half between Indonesia and South East Asia.

 

[Gouda_boy]

Sulawesi Island Review

Hello everyone! I wanted to come along and provide some of my own feedback on the island of Sulawesi, first order of being, the Area name should be SULAWESI, this name was used prior to Portugal naming it Celebes.

I personally, while the detail of Sulawesi is much greater than in EU4, still happen to find the region a bit lacking, in Cultural and language representation, locations and naming errors, and Kingdom accuracy, so without further ado, I would like to provide some suggestions!

Locations:

This is perhaps the most dense Sulawesi could manage at the most when it comes to locations, as the number has nearly doubled to approximately 115 Locations for this island. I do know this is quite a lot. However, I felt inclined to increase the locations as much as I did because of the sheer diversity of settlements, Principalities, Kingdoms, and peoples of the island. I welcome suggestions on where locations can be REDUCED if necessary, or if better/more time period appropriate names can be used.

Spoiler: New Locations and Provinces

New Locations in Makassar:
From 2-8 - Binamu, Bangkala, Tolo, Biringbulu, Bantaeng, Sanrabone - Location Density is highest in the South of the island and this is where most societies developed in the time period. Several Polities existed in this area outside of the well known Gowa Kingdom, with 6 having existed in modern day Jeneponto Regency alone. I opted for the inclusion of Binamu and Bangkala, as they were a bit more influential, Tolo would be under the Tarowang Kingdom.

New Province - Tallo:
2 New Locations, 1 Renamed. Kingdom of Tallo formed around the end of the 1300s, its Capital centered around Talloq
Murusu (Marusu) - Namesake of the Kingdom in the area, Tinggimoncong

Bone:
2 New Locations, 2 Renamed
Sinjai and Tonra

New Province - Wajo:
2 New Locations
Peneki and Siwa

New Province - Ajattappareng:
"Lands West of the lakes" Also a Confederation that formed out of self-defense against Makassar and Bugis Kingdoms
4 new Locations - Bacukiki, Rappang, Suppa, Sawitto, all of which were polities, that along with Sidenrang, formed Ajattapareng.

New Province - Toraja:
3 New Locations
Enrekang, after the people, Makale, after a city, and Mamasa, after the People/Tribe

Renamed from Mamuju - Mandar:
5 new Locations - Another area known for many different small kingdoms that later united to avoid conflict and provide defenses
Bangai - Later known as Majene, Sendana - Kingdom, Matanga - Kingdom, Arale - Kingdom, Tabulahan - Kingdom.

Renamed from Palopo - Luwu:
3 New Locations
Ponrang, Sabbang, Masamba


New Province - Kalumpang:
2 New Locations, 2 Renamed
Karana - After a River, Budung - After a River, Sarudu - After the People, Bambaira - A District

Renamed from Donggala - Kaili:
2 New Locations
Pakawa - Pakawa Kingdom and Capital, Tawaeli - A District

New Province - Poso:
3 New Locations
Bada - for Bada Valley, Pamona, Sausu - Western extent of Tojo Kingdom

New Province - Tojo:
2 New Locations, 3 Renamed
Tau Taa - After the people, Ampana - District, City, People

Banggai:
3 New Locations, 2 Renamed
Pelang - Island, Mendono - Region under the Banggai Kingdom, Pati-Pati, Known Eastern extent of Tojo Kingdom

Bungku:
1 New Location, 2 Renamed
Wotu - After the people

New Province - Konawe:
4 New Locations, 3 Renamed
To Laiwo - After the People, Mekongga - A Kingdom, Ladongi - City and District, Kalono - City and District

Butung:
3 New Locations, 1 Renamed
Pancana - After the People/Language, Kioko - After the People/Language, Kabaena - Island

New Province - Tolitoli:
3 New Locations, 1 Renamed
Tajio - After the People/Language, Lauje, - After the People/Language, Damsol - A District

Gorontalo:
3 New Locations, 4 Renamed
Paleleh - River, Limboto, Pinogu - Capital of Suwawa/Tuwawa

New Province - Mongondow:
4 New Locations
Bintauna - Traditional Origins of Mongondow, Dumoga - Was a Capital, Kotobangon - Was a Capital, Helumo

Manado:
2 New Locations
Tondano - After the People/Language, Tonsea - Was a Capital, also after the People/Language

Provinces Visualized

The Provinces have been split up some more and named after Regions, People Groups, Long standing Kingdoms, while being more Geographically consistent.

Cultures

Cultures have been split a bit more, and I feel are also more well defined. Only the Primary Cultures are seen, however Minority Cultures do exist, namely Bugis in Marusu and Wotu, Tolaki in Kulisusu, Bungku in Lasolo, Bare'e in Bada, Lore, and Nuhon, Muna in Kioko, Banggai in Mendono, Kaili in Sausu, Pendau, Bambaira, and Kuwali, Tomini in Buol, Gorontalo in Bintauna and Bolaang, Minahasa in Belang, Mongondow in Amurang. Wolio is related to Wotu and is not Primary anywhere, however is found as a large Minority in Wolio Location

Language

Proposal for Dialects

Religion of Sulawesi in 1337

I Could not find names for most of the cultures, However they are colored if they must simply be culturally named. A possible blend for a more broad name for multiple cultures could be Tolotang (Of which this is broken down between different peoples, whether wholly Animist, or Syncretized with Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, or Christianity)

 

[Thorum]

Sulawesi is 175k km2, so 115 locations seems (at the high end of) acceptable, especially with the choice to make basically everything nations instead of SoPs