Tinto Maps #27 - 22nd of November 2024 - Oceania

[Cassilda]

I'm seeing it right and now every society of pops in Oceania has its own religion?

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

As plenty of people have said in here already, there should be at least a couple of Settled Countries in Oceania. The Hawaiian kingdoms, Tonga, and Samoa are making the headlines but I'd also like to point out that Pohnpei, Kosrae, and Rapa Nui should be Settled Countries as well. After all, the ruins of Nan Madol (aka the Venice of the Pacific), Leluh, and the moai on Rapa Nui suggest a fairly centralized society was present at these islands, especially since we know of the monarchies that would be present in 1337 like the
Saudeleur dynasty of Nan Madol.

I'll have to read up on others like Yap and some of the SoPs suggested for Australia and New Guinea.

Also, for anyone more familiar with Oceania, what would make for a good market center east of Ternate?

Regardless, I'm hoping these few suggestions for Settled Countries will be considered. I'm without a doubt looking forward to the North America Tinto Maps next week and the rest of the New World!

 

[rhuan]

I think that the Reddit map-makers will be pleased, yes. And there's even a new continent appearing there!:
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I see jan mayen up there, when will we receive tm extra about them

 

[Pavía]

Speaking of religions, I asked this in the culture thread, but didn't get an answer yet: Are there plans for religions being able to be in multiple groups, like cultures are?

Not as for now.

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

Speaking of Pohnpei and Kosrae, could we get a closer look at them and Tahiti if possible?

 

[TilFolkvang]

A bit different map today, as there are no regular countries in the entire region… All of them are Societies of Pops!

I know the plan is to make societies playable eventually. But if it's looking like they won't be at launch, it would be a huge bummer to me to have no playable Polynesians at launch. This is a case where even a Realism Enjoyer like me would say gameplay > realism and make at least one of those societies into a Settled Country. Tonga seems like a good fit, but there may be others I'm not as aware of.

 

[donbg]

As I've said, it's late, but I'll add on a couple clarifications; first nations Australians had MULTIPLE villages, farms, and plantations, of crops like bananas, mostly concentrated in northern Australia around the Torres Strait. the modern state of Victoria, as I mentioned, had multiple fixed, permenant settlements around the Yarra river.

Please note that much of this evidence was actively destroyed by Colonial authorities as part of Terra Nullius narratives, but it is there; I'd highly reccomend the book Dark Emu on the topic, but for an overview, please read the article

The enduring myth of the hunter-gatherer​

from the University of Tasmania on the topic.

I'm not disputing anything of what you said, and I am in agreement that is indeed the case that they had a very sophisticated culture with a long history of aquaculture, societal developments and settlements. But what I've said still is the case- we need to bear in mind that multiple other hunter-gatherer societies in Africa and in the Americas also had a significant history of very sophisticated aquaculture, permanent settlements made possible through an extensive manipulation of the environment around them, and even chiefs and charismatic leader societies. There are areas in the world that currently have no SOPs and no plans of SOPs, that are home to cultures that practiced wide-scale agriculture and had hereditary chiefs. There are parts of the world outright made into wastelands that had agriculturalists and pastoralists living in them. So it's a case of what about aboriginals make them deserving of having SoPs compared to the ethnic groups in all these other regions? Sure, they undoubtedly had a very complex history and society, but given the standards applied by Tinto, they should not be represented as SOPs. Otherwise, most of the world should be covered by SOPs.

 

[Mdog]

We have plenty of ideas, but the feasibility of them is very low at this stage, to be brutally honest. We'll confirm it in due time, but we prefer to be honest with the community, and not create non-realistic expectations.

If they are not ready then that is fair, but in light of this, I wonder what North America/South America will look like. If the Maori, Hawaiian's aren't land based then there should be very few land based nations north of modern day Northern Mexico. I would suggest making Hawaiian and Maori (maybe some others but these are the ones I know about) land based if SOP's won't be playable. Who doesn't want to play a NZ/Hawaiian thunderdome!

 

[byro123]

As I've said, it's late, but I'll add on a couple clarifications; first nations Australians had MULTIPLE villages, farms, and plantations, of crops like bananas, mostly concentrated in northern Australia around the Torres Strait. the modern state of Victoria, as I mentioned, had multiple fixed, permenant settlements around the Yarra river.

Please note that much of this evidence was actively destroyed by Colonial authorities as part of Terra Nullius narratives, but it is there; I'd highly reccomend the book Dark Emu on the topic, but for an overview, please read the article

The enduring myth of the hunter-gatherer​

from the University of Tasmania on the topic.

Unfortunately dark emu is kinda bullshit
But aboriginal people, while not full agriculturalists in the away many groups were (although they definitely practiced aquaculture), they still shaped their environment in a way which can be considered to be a form of agriculture and I think certain groups like the gamilaaray, the yolongu and the kulin nations should at least be sops as mentioned by several others already

 

[IronicallyIronic]

Hello, and welcome to another Friday devoted to map worship! You may remember me, Pavía, from previous Tinto Maps, as @Roger Corominas has been dutifully taking care of the last 6 dev diaries. Now he’s focusing on some other tasks, and I’ll be in charge of the last 4, as it’s planned that the war Tinto Maps will be over by Christmas. This doesn’t mean that we will be done with the maps of Project Caesar, though - we will continue posting Tinto Maps Feedback posts in the next few months. And the next one will be a very much anticipated one - the Balkans, next week! But let’s focus now on today’s region: Oceania!

Countries
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A bit different map today, as there are no regular countries in the entire region… All of them are Societies of Pops! Also, down to the right, that is not ‘Linear Atlantis’, but our ‘3D Material Testing Island’, where our (great) 3D artists test how the different combinations of terrains look in-game.

It may be relevant to repeat our guidelines for how to categorize countries and societies, by the way:


Societies of Pops

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There are a few Societies of Pops in Oceania, in three main hubs: Hawaii, Fiji-Samoa-Tonga, and New Zealand. We’d be interested in listening to your feedback on this matter, nonetheless.

Locations

Spoiler: Detailed Locations Maps

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Plenty of different maps today, to be able to show as many different regions as possible. This is very highly WIP, and some of the islands may end up dying because of their size and being unimportant. By the way, you may notice that some of the islands are weirdly rounded up - that’s because they have a different type of terrain, ‘Atoll’, which is the last one that we were able to add to the game in due time during the development process.

Provinces
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Areas
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Terrain
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Now you may fully notice the purpose of Terrain Testing Island!

Development
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Not a very developed region in 1337…

Natural Harbors
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There are some very good natural harbors in the region, including a very infamous one in O’ahu…

Cultures
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Tons of different cultures today!

Languages
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Papua is not the most homogeneous place in the world, language-related…

Religions
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As mentioned last week, we’ve split Animism into several ‘cultural confessions’, which we want now to recombine into broader families; so, again, any suggestions are welcome!

Raw Materials

Spoiler: Detailed Raw Materials Maps

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Resources are, in general terms, quite basic, food-oriented ones; although Australia is more varied, obviously, and there are some areas very rich in Pearls.

Markets
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Ternate is the main market of the western part of the region, although you may notice that there’s very little access in most of the locations.

Population
There are some issues with the Population distribution map of the region this week, but I’m letting you know that the total population is 1.885M.

And that is all for today! If you want a more detailed map of a given area, just let me know, as I’m aware that the scale of the region shown doesn’t fit well with the usual format of Tinto Maps.

Next week we will take a look at the last continent remaining, starting with the region of North America. See you!

I hope the Terrain Test Island gets modded into the game, seems much cooler than the rest of the world.

 

[Spartakus]

The NZ wild game represents the moa. They were essential to the Maori diet in 1337.

But those should become extinct before a playable nation discovers New Zealand. Will there be an event changing the raw good of the location?

 

[Spartakus]

There are some very good natural harbors in the region, including a very infamous one in O’ahu…

Surprised that it produces fish rather the pearls.

 

[Yonael]

So many cultures! Amazing!

 

[Polesie Admiral]

we will continue posting Tinto Maps Feedback posts in the next few months

is the one after the balkans feedback British isles or Russia?

 

[arkh4ngelsk]

Given the previous SOPs we've seen, I don't see why at least a few couldn't be added to Australia to at least make it so an entire continental landmass isn't just sitting there with its only purpose being for Europeans to show up and colonize it. The criteria for SOPs and settled societies already seems pretty inconsistent, with individual Khanty/Mansi principalities falling under the same umbrella as entire hunter-gatherer cultures like the Yukaghir, while groups like the Makua are settled despite lacking a written language.

Much better to be a bit inconsistent than leave Australia totally empty, IMO, especially since the previous maps don't have a ton of consistenty in this regard either.

 

[FossilDS]

Unfortunately dark emu is kinda bullshit
But aboriginal people, while not full agriculturalists in the away many groups were (although they definitely practiced aquaculture), they still shaped their environment in a way which can be considered to be a form of agriculture and I think certain groups like the gamilaaray, the yolongu and the kulin nations should at least be sops as mentioned by several others already

I would also add the Gunditjmara people to this list. They were organized into a group of sophisticated chiefdoms of about 10,000 total people, who practiced a sedentary way of life by building ponds and weirs to trap and raise eels, as a form of aquaculture. I would argue they can make a decent case for being a SoP.

 

[Spoonsir101]

A lot of the culture names I saw were a bit odd. For example using Eoran instead of just Eora and Dharugi instead of just Dharug. These terms have never been used to describe those people (as far as I'm aware), they just go as the Dharug nation, or Eora people instead of for example the German nation or Somali people. They sound 'wrong' when you compare them to other culture's demonyms, but it's the correct way of saying it as far as I'm aware. Basically just go through each of the culture names and remove any of the extra letters at the end that don't belong there.

Here's a bunch of examples:
Eoran -> Eora
Dharugi -> Dharug
Worimian -> Worimi
Tharawali -> Tharawal
Wiradjurin -> Wiradjuri
Gundungurran -> Gundungara

I could make a full list of this if you would like me to, I've finished uni so I've got free time to spare lol, but it should be a fairly simple but boring task.

I cannot speak in depth about the accuracy of these cultures, I'll leave that to people more knowledgable to me, but it looks like a good balance of gameplay and realism to me.

 

[Spoonsir101]

It's a bit simplistic to call the entire Pama-Nyungan language family all one language. It'd be similar to putting all Romance languages under one language. I propose that you split the language using figure 1 of the source below. (not the greatest image for this specific use, but it gets the idea across)
https ://elischolar .library.yale.edu /cgi/viewcontent. cgi?article= 1000&context=ling_ faculty
(sorry for the spaces it wasn't letting me post it as a normal link)

It lists the major subgroups of the Pama-Nyungan language group and would help in making it a bit more realistic. For example, using Yuin-Kuric as the language for the Yuin, Tharawal, Dharug, Worimi, Gandangara, Ngunnawal and Eora cultures. Building on the language dev diary, I'd make the language family be Pama-Nyungan instead of the current set up.

Also wikipedia has another map that uses various sources to reconstruct the language groups (yes I know wikipedia isn't a great source, but the map helps in finding out where each language group roughly would be) Use the list of wikipedia language groups in the Pama-Nyungan language family page and match them up with the provinces and cultures you've already included.
(If anyone else has a better source that goes more into where each language group was spoken, please link it for the devs, I'm not an expert.)

I've put the images down below for a general idea of the split I would like to see.

 

[King_Potat]

Before we get North America, could we get an Extra Tinto Maps for the Indian Ocean Isles like Kerguelen, and Diego Garcia, as well as the misc. Atlantic Isled that probably won't be covered like Bermuda, Ascension, St. Helena, and Tristan da Cunha if possible?

 

[Togelic]

Could we get screenshots of the full Testing Island?