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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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I have 2 questions relating to the status of Normandy :
  • Why did you go with Tancarville for the location near the mouth of the seine ? I know Le Havre wasn't founded yet, but Fécamp, Caudebec, or even Yvetot (whose lord was "King" in name and right until 1555) were way more important if i'm correct.
  • Why is there more pop in Tancarville than Rouen ? I'd probably swap the 149k and the 116k around.
 
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Love it. But using modern French location names in Alsace/ Lorraine is very wierd. Should still be German or at least local dialect of German. The French names came to relevance waaay later.
Which ones?
 
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Is it possible for the French vassals to gain more autonomy and essentially decentralizing France? Or having vassals work together to curtail royal power and remain 'independent' from the royal domain? I never really liked how in EU4 you can just begin to annex the vassal while in real life it happend either upon death of last male ruler, through war, or through negotiations.
 
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I love the little bits of England that we can see.
There's some Cornish in Devon for example
Which is anachronistic. Looking at the map it goes across the whole of the South of Devon up to Exeter. The Cornish language was basically confined to Cornwall west of the Tamar by 1300: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_language#/media/File:Cornish_language_shift.svg and I suspect well before 1300 in the more northerly areas of that part of Devon, Exeter and it's immediate surroundings being centres of Anglo-Saxon settlement and most of the towns in the Torbay region being Anglo-Saxon or early Medieval in foundation (Ipplepen aside). As someone who has links to the South Devon area, there's very little Celtic influence there beyond a few trace place names - lots of 'Combes', which is pronounced the same as the Welsh 'cwm'.
 
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And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!

You do the Netherlands, Iberia, and France and then skip to the Baltic? Is there any particular reason why you don't do the British Isles next? It would have seemed a natural choice (at least to me, though admittedly I may be a little biased).
 
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Expect a huge verification from me next week ;)

Greetings from Mazovia (Duchy of Rawa in this project).
I will say right away that in the case of the area of the modern borders of Poland, I count on at least the following cultural groups:
  1. Polish (potential division of the Polish culture into Greater Polish and Lesser Polish could be interesting) (MUST BE)
  2. Silesian (There may be two Silesian cultures: Germanic Silesian "Schlesisch" and Slavic Silesian "Ślōnskŏ") (MUST BE)
  3. Pomeranian (Germanic) (MUST BE)
  4. Kashubian / or Slavic Pomeranian (MUST BE)
  5. Prussian (Germanic) (MUST BE)
  6. Prūsai (Baltic) (MUST BE)
  7. Red Ruthenians (MUST BE)
  8. Sorbs (MUST BE)
  9. Masovian (IT MAY BE, BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE)
  10. Kuyavian (IT MAY BE, BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE)
  11. Polesian (IT MAY BE, BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE)
  12. Polabian (Slavic) (IT MAY BE, BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE
 
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So if I recall correctly, around this time Navarre had gained (or was about to gain) some lands in France, specifically Longueville, Angouleme, and Mortain. How come that’s not represented on this map? The house of Evreux was in power about this time and held lands in exchange for Navarre giving up more important claims and lands in France .
Évreux is in a personal union with Navarre while being a vassal of France.
 
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Yeah, we reviewed this week the tags between the Low Countries and France, and considered that after the Battle of Cassel of 1328, when Louis I was reinstated as the Count, its situation was more akin to that of vassalage.
Rip. Probably for the best though, although i do wonder how you will now represent flanders' involvement in the hundred years war.

I noticed some of the population numbers in the low countries have been changed too, I think flanders had just over half a million last time. Can you guys elaborate on where you base the numbers off of ?
 
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It seems to me that the culture criterion used for Spain and Netherlands is quite different from the one used for France and seemingly Germany, I don't think the level of granularity shown in those 4 places matches.
 
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Exactly, that's why you shouldn't do it,. Extreme railroad = bad. Burgundian succession wouldn't work except as a "global" mechanic. You can't plan the demise of a quasi-kingdom one hundred years in advance, while it didn't even form yet.

As for the "rise of Burgundy", I'm not so sure how it happened historically. A cursory look seems to indicate it has been mostly done by inheritances, a situation which is hard to portray otherwise than with a revamped PUs mechanic. I would certainly not want whole chunk of territories changing hands seemingly randomly a century after the start of the game.
Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.
I'm not going to lie to you, I have no idea how Paradox could succeed in simulating the rise to power of Burgundy which is indeed very particular since it was achieved mainly thanks to successive inheritances. I hope others will have these ideas for me. But as a Burgundian who was very generously spoiled in EU4, I tell you that seeing the golden age of my dear Burgundy eclipsed in the Caesar Project would make me really sad. Especially since it offers a real change for the story afterwards. I would find it a shame to see France just gradually annex all its vassals and appenages, while some like Burgundy almost overthrew the King of France (League of Public Good in particular). Anyway, here it is, I hope others have ideas, but please find a way to ensure that Burgundy has a chance to chart a course towards independence from time to time. Especially in itself it's the same thing as with Austria which essentially grew thanks to inheritances, so if Paradox succeeds in depicting the rise to power of Austria, there must be a way to succeed to do so for Burgundy to a lesser extent.
 
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Now for some feedback regarding trade goods (once again just collateral stuff that I saw while doing research on Germany):

Dyes:
Toulouse obviously was the most important dye producer in Europe at the time, but it wasn't just the city. The entire region around it and east of it, known as the Lauragais (or the land of plenty, I guess) was famous for its dye production and fertile farmland that later on switched to wheat exports.
So I would suggest adding dye to Lavaur and Castelnaudary as well.
Special modifiers for especially efficient production are probably in the game, but I'd argue against giving one for Toulouse and dye, because while it was famous for it at the start of the game, indigo is more efficient for producing blue dye than the woad they grew. So indigo producing colonies, like the Thirteen Colonies (the main cash crops in the US South were indigo and tobacco at the time) outcompeted the native European dye producers.
There was also production of yellow dye, which French Wikipedia says was produced north of Paris, other than near Toulouse of course, so I'm suggesting one dye in the pink location north-west of Paris.
This source says that there was a large market for woad around the Somme river, mostly grown around Amiens. They were exported to England and Flanders.
So to represent this, I'm suggesting dye in Amiens as well.

Wild Game:
I'm suggesting Wild Game for Melun, the woods location south of Paris, because the forest of Fontainebleau was a royal hunting reserve.

Stone:
I have a German source that mentions limestone imports from Northern France and I don't see any stone there on the map, so it may be a good idea to place one. I'm not sure where, though.
Edit: A later comment confirmed stone for Caen.

Iron:
I saw Pay de Bray in Normandy mentioned as an iron producing center in an article about the spread of ironworking techniques that came from Wallonia. This paper which analyzed iron used in the construction of Northern French cathedrals also has a map that shows Pay de Bray as a source of iron. Not sure if there are any sources, e.g. in French, that rank the contemporary producers in the region, but maybe the iron in Normandy would be better in the location east of Rouen rather than in Lisieux.
There could also be an iron location west of Troyes, as the linked paper shows plenty of production in the Late Middle Ages there. But again, not sure about the importance compared to other production at the time.

Silver:
There could be some production in Alsace (Leberthal/Lièpvre), but considering you almost cut the region off, it may be better suited for a later thread.

Salt:
Camargue, so the Rhône delta, was and is famous for its salt production which is easily done in the salty marshes there. I couldn't find a source for production in the time period with a quick google search, though, maybe someone else can help.
The Royal Saltworks at Arc-et-Senans are a UNESCO thing that was built late in the period, but specifically the nearby Salin-les-Bains produced salt from the Middle Ages. The location 'Salins' does exist on the posted map but it doesn't have salt! :(

Horses:
Once again the Camargue. There is an ancient horse breed called Camargue horse which is indigenous to the region. You could maybe add horses somewhere in this region which currently doesn't have any. (Edit: As one commenter said, these horses were banned for export, so probably not a good idea to have them as a trade good)
 
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Hi Pavia, this is going to be a really small nitpick in a sea of proper suggestions but Nantes really feels wrong with being landlocked while it grew to be the biggest port in France during the games timeframe. Portraying Guerande (St Nazaire) as the coastal port makes little sense historically as it didnt rise to prominence until the 1900s and remained a small fishing village during the games timeframe. I believe switching Nantes to Guerande (Expanding it slightly to the east to contain the cities proper location) and changing the old Nantes location to Rezé or Clisson would be more accurate
 
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For me personally I don't mind some railroading although I'd prefer to just let the simulation run its course. What I do dislike is something like the current Burgundian Inheritance in EU4. It was fun and interesting at first, but got stale very quickly. It is "meta" to get the Burgundian Inheritance in every European play trough, even just to prevent a great power from getting it. I ended up modding the fertility penalty of Charles the Burgoyne (from -95% back up to -50%), just because I got so tired of it.

I think this is the most important consideration for railroading. Will it quickly get stale over multiple play troughs.
There won't be a 'Burgundian Inheritance' as in EUIV in this game, we've already fixed too many bugs about that in the last patches of EUIV.
 
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I appreciate the pop density map, but I would love to have one not just for countries, to be able to compare better.

I get that a pop density world map is not very useful, because China and India were way more populated than anywhere else. But, what about making it regional, so you can compare places in Europe? Ideal situation for me: freely selecting continents, show me only America and Africa, for instance.
 
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For the naming convention of provinces, you could start by using the map of the general government of France accessible on this wiki page : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_France#cite_note-4 ; it's not perfectly sourced but it might be a good start. I think you should first rename the provinces that kind of match the map of the general government and once it's done you can ask once more for feedback for the smaller provinces which need more specific researches
Also about naming conventions, i feel like EUIV had it pretty good with France so you may want to not have to do all the work again
 
I think the Black Death could play a vital role in this, as a lot of heirs died in that period, which eventually led to Phillip the Good (Bur) marrying the sole heir of Flanders: Margaret III of Flanders.

Maybe a watershed condition could be designed, where if Flanders has no male heir in the 14th century, an 'Iberian Wedding'-like event could occur, allowing for the Burgundian path to take hold? Perhaps this could then unlock the rest of Burgundy's focus/mission tree venturing forth in gradually acquiring the Low Countries, as it was something they did very purposefully.
I just saw your answer, and I personally think it's a very good idea, to see what the developers think !
 
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