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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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Is Breton part of the Celtic "language/culture" group with Ireland, Wales, Cornwall and the Scottish Highlands?

and if so, is the "Celtic Galatian" still visible in Anatolia at the time? and will it be part of the same cultural group?
 
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I'm not going to lie to you, I have no idea how Paradox could succeed in simulating the rise to power of Burgundy which is indeed very particular since it was achieved mainly thanks to successive inheritances. I hope others will have these ideas for me. But as a Burgundian who was very generously spoiled in EU4, I tell you that seeing the golden age of my dear Burgundy eclipsed in the Caesar Project would make me really sad. Especially since it offers a real change for the story afterwards. I would find it a shame to see France just gradually annex all its vassals and appenages, while some like Burgundy almost overthrew the King of France (League of Public Good in particular). Anyway, here it is, I hope others have ideas, but please find a way to ensure that Burgundy has a chance to chart a course towards independence from time to time. Especially in itself it's the same thing as with Austria which essentially grew thanks to inheritances, so if Paradox succeeds in depicting the rise to power of Austria, there must be a way to succeed to do so for Burgundy to a lesser extent.
Having vassals being able to inherit each other could help, and a less rigid conception of liberty desire could too. I'm thinking about a French Crown depleted and exhausted by the Hundred Years war. Then you could have Burgundy jump on weaker French vassals and becoming strong enough to refuse annexation and stand up to France.
 
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In preparation for the next week:

When I saw some general maps of Europe it seemed to me that you didn't use IH PAN's fantastic maps for Polish internal regional/administrative divisions.
Am I correct in this and if so, was there a reason behind it or they just didn't fall into your hands because they're in Polish?
 
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Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.
You may want to have a system in which if a french apanage is too powerful and disloyal, it has more chances to want to break away from France than usually in the game. A strong and disloyal apanage could even side with England in the HYW and having this strong and disloyal vassal could lead to special events that start a civil war, like the bourguignon and armagnac civil war of the early XVth century. If you had a system like that, it could make it possible for a strong Burgundy to eventually be kind of independent and rivaled with France, like historically, but it could also lead to fun alternate history content where any other apanage could become the strong internal rival to France.
 
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A few questions:

1) What does the yellow arrows in the trade map mode mean? It look like the EUIV trade routes where trade could only flow in one direction but I thought that was no longer the case?

2) Are the channel islands of Guernsey and Jersey separate locations or just one Channel Island location?

3) To me it does not look like Ushant and Belle Ile are separate locations from main land provinces. If they are not, I would recommend splitting them off as separate locations mainly for gameplay reasons. Imagine conquering them and having English/British Island bases dotted around the coast of Brittany.
 
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Which ones?

Here was a great list of location names proposals. For example, Thionville should be at least Diedenhoven
 
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I wasnt sure if this was relevant to this map talk already. But its in modern day france so why not.

Ferrette -> Pfirt
Sarrebourg-> Saarburg
Saint Avold -> Sankt Avold
Bitche -> Bitsch
Strasbourg -> Strassburg
Haguenau -> Hagenau
(And maybe Belfort -> Beffert)

I cant see the rest but I suspect they have similar problems.
And maybe Mulhouse (Mülhausen) could be represented? Its the largest city in the region. Maybe rename Ferrette or Belfort to Mülhausen instead.
I would rather completely remove Ferrette, call it Ensisheim (maybe therefore redraw the province a bit), and then call the north Colmar to represent the Free City of Colmar. It also makes for far more appeasing borders of the Austrian Sundgau.

Btw, the Landvogtei Hagenau (Unterelsass) shouldn't be owned by Austria, as they lost it in 1330 to Emperor Louis the Bavarian. Louis's chancellor Albert II of Hohenberg was the bailiff in 1337, and Louis handed it over to his relative, the Rhenish elector in 1341.
 
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I am pretty sure the terrain around La Rochelle is made up of marshes. The siege of La Rochelle was hard on Crown men for that reason (amongst others). Also the town of Rochefort (new town founded by Colbert for the French admiralty) was founded on drained marches. The French crown hired Dutch men to help draining the marches to help install the new admiralty. Brouage's countryside was also a vast march that was drained starting in the 16th Century.
 
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Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
View attachment 1137981
When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
View attachment 1137982
An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
View attachment 1137983
We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
View attachment 1137984
View attachment 1137985
View attachment 1137986
We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
View attachment 1137987
Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
View attachment 1137991
Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
View attachment 1137992
The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
View attachment 1137993
Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
View attachment 1137994
View attachment 1137995
Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
I’ll only talk about Limousin since it’s what I’m familiar with.

- regarding provinces : Limoges should be Limousin and Aubusson should probably be La Marche

- regarding locations : Tulle should be comborn and segur should be merged with Limoges

For reference, I have joined a map of Corrèze (southern limousin) from a book « histoire de la Corrèze » by Frederic Le Hech, a professor of history at Brive, published in 2017
Sorry it’s in French.

Keep up the awesome work you do !
 

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The Channel Islands should not be directly ruled by the English crown in 1337. It's been apart of the English realm ever since 1066, but it was never part of the Kingdom of England, with it instead being made up of two autonomous Bailiwicks, Jersey and Guernsey; with Guernsey also having two autonomous fiefdoms, Alderney and Sark. This would be extremely hard to represent in game, but there are two main solutions; the first would be to keep the Channel islands as one location and have it be a vassal of the English, this would be the more moderate, but also inaccurate solution. The second, more radical solution would be to make Jersey and Guernsey their own locations and to have them both released as vassals to the English. The Isle of Mann is also under similar circumstances to the Channel Islands, so it should be a vassal in 1337 as well.
The DevDiary itself said that while it’s historically inaccurate they didn’t want to make a new tag there
 
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I admittedly know nothing about 1337 France, but what is the logic for this weird horizontal 4 province state being a thing? Why not absorb it into the neighboring ones?

View attachment 1138143
It is the area of Guyenne, which was one of the administrative divisions of the French Ancien Régime; it would be first administered together with Gascony in the same parlement, then it was subdivided into two généralités, based on Bordeaux, and Montauban.
 
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Is there silver in the game or does gold replace it like in EU4? I don't think I've seen it in the other maps as a resource.
There's silver, indeed; it was shown one location with it last week, in Iberia.
 
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Hi,

I've noticed you put "Livestock" as ressource for the location of "Salins" (East of France, in the Franche-Comté region, under the location of Besançon). I think it would be more accurate if you change it to "Salt" as it was historicaly the case with the city of "Salins-les-Bains". As early as 1115, there were two saltworks located at wells around the town, and because of the salt production, Salins-les-Bains was the largest town in Franche-Comté after Besançon in medieval times.

Here is some sources to prove my point (it seems I can't post them because i'm new or idk, but you can search for them) :
- From the Great Saltworks of Salins-les-Bains to the Royal Saltworks of Arc-et-Senans, the Production of Open-pan Salt (UNESCO)
- 1200 years of history (website "salinesdesalins" talking about the salt production in the city)
- Salt Springs Exploitation Study in Franche-Comté (France): Contribution of Charcoal (Alexa Dufraisse, June 2002)
 
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In preparation for the next week:

When I saw some general maps of Europe it seemed to me that you didn't use IH PAN's fantastic maps for Polish internal regional/administrative divisions.
Am I correct in this and if so, was there a reason behind it or they just didn't fall into your hands because they're in Polish?
I don't recall exactly which sources were used for Poland, but if you could open a new thread commenting specifically on these, my team could check them. You would also make happy our fellow Polish coworkers, I guess.
 
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Hello ! I speak Occitan (in particular Provençal). I am thus far very happy with the cultural diversity and particularity of cultures displayed here, and it's an amazing improvement from, ahem, previous titles set in the same era, but if I might suggest:

«Languedocien» should rather be named «Lengadocian» or «Languedocian», nor only because that this name is, i) endonymic, and ii) the preferred term in the linguistic literature, but also because, iii) it's more legible, and more natural to pronounce in English, Spanish, and most international languages in which previous titles set in this era has been localised (with the exception of French). The improved legibility also makes it a bit easier for the dyslexic to parse :)
 
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Hi,

I've noticed you put "Livestock" as ressource for the location of "Salins" (East of France, in the Franche-Comté region, under the location of Besançon). I think it would be more accurate if you change it to "Salt" as it was historicaly the case with the city of "Salins-les-Bains". As early as 1115, there were two saltworks located at wells around the town, and because of the salt production, Salins-les-Bains was the largest town in Franche-Comté after Besançon in medieval times.

Here is some sources to prove my point (it seems it can't post them because i'm new or idk, but you can search for them) :
- From the Great Saltworks of Salins-les-Bains to the Royal Saltworks of Arc-et-Senans, the Production of Open-pan Salt (UNESCO)
- 1200 years of history (website "salinesdesalins" talking about the salt production in the city)
- Salt Springs Exploitation Study in Franche-Comté (France): Contribution of Charcoal (Alexa Dufraisse, June 2002)
Yep, as mentioned in my post, Salins definitely deserves salt.
Also since I saw charcoal mentioned, obviously making salt uses a lot of fuel and that came from nearby forests, especially the Forêt de Chaux. So maybe there could be some lumber near Salins, to represent the rich amount of fuel they had available. The wheat location inside the wooded Jura mountains looks strange, for example, it could be lumber instead.
 
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