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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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There's silver, indeed; it was shown one location with it last week, in Iberia.
I do hope Bohemia and Hungary's silver production will dwarf everyone else's by a large margin. AFAIK, the two countries together produced more than half of the Old World's total silver output in the 14th century. Bohemia was notably ahead of Hungary too, despite the latter's output share already being about 1/5th to 1/4th of all Europe's.

The same goes for gold. 11/12th of Europe's gold output came from these two countries in the 14th century. Hungary alone already produced 2/3rd to 9/10th of Europe's gold output in this time period.
 
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Are the Waldensians (Valdesi/Vaudois) gonna be represented in the population of the valleys between southern piedmont and provance? I don't know what was the percentage of the population that was Waldensian in 1337 but later in history during and after the protestant reformation they played a quite important role relative to their small and Isolated population in the various wars between France and Savoy that controlled the region by that time. Also it would be fun to have them in game since, as far as I know, they were the first western European heretical movement, the only one that survived the middle ages and joined the reformation and is still active today and the only non Catholic religious group active in southwestern Europe that is still active while being "autochthonous" of the region.
 
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Will there be an event to change the trade good in Lyon from Olives to Silk?

In 1536, Francis I granted Lyon the privilege of weaving silk, silver and gold thread and the industry quickly grew over the years to become an important economic activity for the city as the fashions of the Court of Versailles were exported to all the other European courts. In 1850 (After the game ends but still), silk was 75% of the city's economy.
 
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I do hope Bohemia and Hungary's silver production will dwarf everyone else's by a large margin. AFAIK, the two countries together produced more than half of the Old World's total silver output in the 14th century. Bohemia was notably ahead of Hungary too, despite the latter's output share already being about 1/5th to 1/4th of all Europe's.

The same goes for gold. 11/12th of Europe's gold output came from these two countries in the 14th century. Hungary alone already produced 2/3rd to 9/10th of Europe's gold output in this time period.
Any source for that?
Silver was a big deal in the Ore Mountains on the Saxon side and in Tyrol. Bohemia had some of the Ore Mountain silver too, and of course Kuttenberg, but I never heard that it was that much ahead of everyone else.
Upper Hungary (i.e. Slovakia) was known for its gold, not sure about silver.

And of course, any European silver production was completely invalidated as soon as the market was flooded with silver from rich mines in Bolivia and Mexico in which millions of slaves died of exhaustion or mercury poisoning.
So any modifier that makes European mines especially rich is highly questionable.
 
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First of all I wanna say that I'm thrilled about the detail in the cultures here! Combined with the hints about cultural groups not working quite like in previous games, it's got me very pumped indeed.

For now, I'll stick to a minimal suggestion: the provinces of Vannes, Nantes, and Rennes could be renamed to Vannetais, Pays Nantais, and Pays Rennais; Bro-Wened, Bro-Naoned, and Bro-Roazhon could be used for Breton localization (if the rulers of Brittany were ever to be Breton-speakers, which I don't think they were by 1337!). EDIT: Also, for provinces, Tours -> Touraine, Saintes -> Saintonge, Le Mans -> Maine, even if the PC province borders aren't exactly those of the historical provinces with the same names.

Is there much chance of a couple more locations being added in western Brittany? Cornouaille didn't take in nearly so much land to the north AFAIK, and since a couple locations there are quite big as it stands, I hope some granularity can be added and the province split. Additionally, I believe the locations of Josselin and Redon would've been majority Breton-speaking at the start date. If somebody with deeper knowledge than me comes along and tells you more or different, so much the better; in any case, I want to make sure I have solid sources, so I plan to come back with those - so that I can give concrete suggestions for locations as well.
 
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Mhmh, Oceanic make sense, but to Alsace is exaggerated.
Provençal should be slightly bigger.
Alpine at that point should be renamed to Savoyard, Alpine doesn't make the cut.
 
Edward was created Prince of Wales in 1343, which is 6 years after the game starts. It's a little ahistoric I agree, but I would prefer Wales being something like an appanage than being represented as a vassal of England.
Wales should be part of England, just with low control and ofc different culture and language.
 
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Well, I'm starting to worry about the granularity of cultures in other regions, such as India, Japan and China.

It seems that Tinto seems to think that as long as the framework is detailed enough in the early stage, there will be less work or more actionable / DLCs content in the later stage.

So a cultural unity mechanic is expected, isn’t it? I mean 1.37 Germany eu4 (xD
 
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Overall it is quite good!
I am in favor of naming the regions after well, the "Provinces" (historical name, not in-game one) rather than their capitals.
However, if you are going to name locations by their capital cities, you must know that Machecoul was not the capital of the Pays-de-Retz until 1581. In 1337, it was still Pornic, a town with a port.

Also, I am in favor of making France into an IO (and later a formable TAG) and have that "France" country being "Royal domain" or "Domaine royal" in French so there is no confusion. The reasons for that are the following:
- It allows Flanders, Brittany and Aquitaine to be French de jure while not being under the kings of France (independents of foreign-owned) ;
- It allows English-controlled locations to be the IO's land ;
- It allows vassals to switch side or being neutral in HYW conflicts while remaining French ;
- It allows control to ignore feudal bordergore ;
- If England wins the HYW, it can own the Kingdom of France IO without that weird situation where all French countries become English vassals ;
- It echoes the HRE, with an unlikely decentralization path being possible.
In most runs, we would see France unite and the HRE follow the other path. But sometimes seeing different combinations is fun!

No cosmopolitan culture in France? Paradox really fell off, they don't even care about realism anymore... Jokes aside, the maps look great and i'm saving my input for regions that i know more about. Looking forward to seeing Poland next week.

I never understood where this "cosmopolitan" culture comes from (not that I like francien better). Do you know what it is?
 
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The choice of naming the provinces after the cities is a bit strange, but it is hard to figure out an appropriate name.

Some are obvious (e.g., Cherbourg should be Cotentin, Arles -> Camargues etc.), others I have no idea. What is the naming convention for other countries?

I assume Cherbourg is producing sand due to La Glacerie? (i.e., the place that produced mirrors and glasses, notably used to build Versailles palace). It is a bit weird for Saint-Lo to produce the same thing. It could produce livestock.
 
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I think the Black Death could play a vital role in this, as a lot of heirs died in that period, which eventually led to Phillip the Good (Bur) marrying the sole heir of Flanders: Margaret III of Flanders.

Maybe a watershed condition could be designed, where if Flanders has no male heir in the 14th century, an 'Iberian Wedding'-like event could occur, allowing for the Burgundian path to take hold? Perhaps this could then unlock the rest of Burgundy's focus/mission tree venturing forth in gradually acquiring the Low Countries, as it was something they did very purposefully.
Better to just make this something that will naturally arise out of PUs across the French/Holy Roman border. As long as PUs there, driven by the Black Death or no, are able to generate that type of cascading political consolidation under a single house, it doesn't need to be a specific event chain that occasionally pops up which is doubly frustrating because it would make your run to run variance very high
 
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I don't recall exactly which sources were used for Poland, but if you could open a new thread commenting specifically on these, my team could check them. You would also make happy our fellow Polish coworkers, I guess.
Can we Brazilians make a thread about the Brazil (and in my case Southern Brazil) for the future Tinto Maps and Tinto Talks? We would love to contribute and express our opinions about the current map (show in the last Tinto Talks).

And thank you very much for being so open to the fans!
 
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As a Frenchman, I love this map. So many locations oh mon dieu.

I wholly support adding some hills to central Brittany, as well as salt and/or horses to Camargue, as some suggested before.

There is only one coal mine in the Northeast, will there be something to add more in the late game? The coal industry was huge in that whole area of Northeastern France and Wallonie in the 19th century (slightly after the games timeframe, I know, but just 1 coal location in all of France in 1800 feels wrong.)

And finally, Lyon was led from the early 14th century up to the Revolution by a burgher council. Is there any plan to represent that somehow? For instance, by having less nobles and more burghers than other cities? (This might also help the city to become the trade center it became historically in the 15th century.)
No horses in Camargue! They were only used locally and were explicitly forbidden by law to be bred or exported outside the region (they were very specific to the region and would have made terrible horses anywhere else).
 
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