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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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Hello ! I speak Occitan (in particular Provençal). I am thus far very happy with the cultural diversity and particularity of cultures displayed here, and it's an amazing improvement from, ahem, previous titles set in the same era, but if I might suggest:

«Languedocien» should rather be named «Lengadocian» or «Languedocian», nor only because that this name is, i) endonymic, and ii) the preferred term in the linguistic literature, but also because, iii) it's more legible, and more natural to pronounce in English, Spanish, and most international languages in which previous titles set in this era has been localised (with the exception of French). The improved legibility also makes it a bit easier for the dyslexic to parse :)

Languedoc isn’t an endonym. The distinction between Pays de Langue d’Oc and Pays de Langue d’Oil was made during the Albigensian Crusade by soldiers from northern France based on how they perceived the word yes was pronounced in the differents southern and nothern gallo-roman diallect. Although its was only pronounced Oc by the smallfolk and only in the place who would became the Languedoc Province of the Royal Domain, with the litterary form being O. An endonym wouldn’t have keep this mistake and would have been Lengadò (but would as still be odd)
 
Languedoc isn’t an endonym. The distinction between Pays de Langue d’Oc and Pays de Langue d’Oil was made during the Albigensian Crusade by soldiers from northern France based on how they perceived the word yes was pronounced in the differents southern and nothern gallo-roman diallect. Although its was only pronounced Oc by the smallfolk and only in the place who would became the Languedoc Province of the Royal Domain, with the litterary form being O. An endonym wouldn’t have keep this mistake and would have been Lengadò (but would as still be odd)
Lengadocian is the Occitan name for the language spoken in Lengadoc/Languedoc. You are correct, in that "o" (without the accent grave, if orthography matters) is how òc is pronounced, but that is true for many words: in Provençal, nuèch is pronounced as "nuè", and final t's are also omitted in the words ending in -at, for example, which is not true in Lengadocian. But the written standard for the land and the language are nevertheless Lengadòc and Lengadocian, and if it's how they pronounced it in the lands of Albigés, it's only all the more reason for the name to remain as such: Gascon, Lengadocian, Provençal, and so forth are very diverse languages, and we write, pronounce, and emphasize our words differently, after all - forcing one standard across all these toponims would be a bit like transliterating them all into Catalan :)
 
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Finally found time to fulfill my personal tradition and list the countries I would like to play in this week's Tinto Maps! I have an aversion to dynastic polities, countries with a lot of vassals and enclaves, so this region isn't much my jam but I have two playthroughs in mind. I know no one waits for this, but I like writing these to get the hype up and I will compile these once the game's out. (Also note all the roleplay here is in good fun.)
  • Brittany should be fun. I love the Celts, I love the wonderful overlap of country borders with the area borders and cultural borders, and I love Brittany. I will probably ally England, and be a thorn on the side of the French, being worthy of my historical name Little Britain. This run will probably be a culture oriented run, re-Celtifying the Gaul. I will first reeducate the astray Gallo's, then assimilate greater portions of Northern France into their true ancestral culture. Those who insist on speaking Latin slop foreign to their blood? Off to our colonies in Northern America. Florida will be colled New Brittany and will be home to millions of Frenchmen.
  • Provence is another tag with a lost culture allure. The first goal is preservation of independence, the second goal is the union of all Occitan peoples and the birth of a new nation state, including all of Southern France, Eastern Iberia and maybe the Gallo-Italics. For the sake of symmetry, will probably also attain most West Mediterranean Islands and Algeria/Tunisia too. Could expel all non-d'Oc people to Algeria, would make a good dumping ground. Also will probably embrace Catharism from our brothers in the mountains, to further differentiate ourselves from the d'Oïl weirdos up north. I will probably also conquer Vasconia and resettle it, sending its people either to my colonies in the Americas or to Algeria. After all they claim descent from Aquitanians and everybody knows it is us who are the true sons of Aquitaine. Of course, all of these could be achieved with Aquitaine too, probably even easier due to English support.
 
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Instead of historical events and missions game should have mechanics, which can represent such events. I mean war of Briton inheritance or Armagnac–Burgundian Civil War. Second one was one of the biggest reason for the rise of Burgundian duchy in the 15th century, and of course highly successful marriage politics of its first Dukes. The game should have mechanics which can represent that in an interesting way for players. We might have a result for example different appanage becoming strong and conflicting with the other ones and even with the crown. Or civil wars in vassal-states which can involve powerful neighbors and become full-scale conflict. This, in my opinion, is better representation of historical process, than events or missions, which can become boring after several playthrough.
 
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It's probably too late.

Little observation in France Olives are only in the south near the Mediterannen sea and near the Rhone at the south of Lyon. The rest of the country is too cold for olives.

For the name of provinces a few proposition for the south

Muret-Bigorre
Auch-Armagnac
Pau-Bearn
Bayonne-Soule
Narbonne-Narbonnais
Avignon-Avignonais
Limoges-Limousain
Bordeaux-Bordelaix
Thouars-Vendée
 
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I think the best way to handle the issue with Burgundy and railroading is to create a general set of mechanics that will make all of the French vassals and apennages some degree of disloyal and willing to break off from the French Crown, and then start interacting with other minor powers and perhaps even join the HRE. While I don't think this should be a common occurrence to the point where we'll have France-plosion memes, there should be the potential for there to be 'multiple' Burgundys, like say in one game Burgundy and Foix break free and end up making alliances and RMs and grow to become regional powers through game of thrones means.
 
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He said that royal appanges would have different rules, and could be re-absorbed into the royal domain much more easily. I assume with John II becomes king, Normandy merges in the crown.
I'm merely pointing at the inconsistency in the setup. If Normandy has to be done, why not Cornwall for Edward the Black Prince or Earl of Lancaster for that matter?
 
Hello
about Britany : forz petra !
n'importe quoi !
it's . . . heu . . . not good !!

ok more detail :
for the locations : why using french name in brezhoneg area ?

Quimper => Kemper
Tréguier => Lantregu(i)er ( during the time of the game some times their is an i some times not )
Vannes => Gwened
Saint-Brieuc => Sant-Brieg (at this moment brezhoneg was more important than gallo as you say )
Brest=> Brest ( french use our name for once)

and the others places must be named in Gallo not in french standardised

I say that for Brezhoneg areas but I wonder for the others areas why use moderne parisians for naming location and provinces

for provinces if you want to not move them i recomed :

Cornouaille => Breizh Izel ( lower britany )
Vannes => Bro-wenned ( Vannetais )
Rennes => Rennais
Nantes => Nantais


Culture : breton is a unique culture with 2 languages
But I don't now how you are making stuff with the languages


for production

i'm not sur during this times exactly but after it's in "quimper" location it massively produce fish and in "brest" location it massively produce legume

market : during this times fabrics made in lower britany was sell in spain
 
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@Pavía

Since there are more provinces than in EU4, in game time, how long would it take for an army to walk from Calais to Marseille?
It could take just as long as it does in EU4. Just because there are more locations, that doesn't mean that they can't tweak unit speeds to get the same result. The distance between two points doesn't change, even if twice as many locations would be crammed in than there are know.
 
It could take just as long as it does in EU4. Just because there are more locations, that doesn't mean that they can't tweak unit speeds to get the same result. The distance between two points doesn't change, even if twice as many locations would be crammed in than there are know.

The implication is that if its the same speed then the armies will fly through them at higher speeds unless the ticks are not daily but time of the day like in Victoria 3.
 
Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
View attachment 1137981

Cultures:
View attachment 1137987
Is there a reason why Normand lacks its final D? norman in the english spelling.
Religions:
View attachment 1137991
Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
View attachment 1137992
The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggesst?
I'm not sure for gold... but olives that far north?around the mediterranean , sure , but as north as champagne? is it for gameplay purposes?
 
Will there siutations that reflect changes in demand for certain key resources as the game progresses, such as saltpetre as gunpowder warfare becomes common place or tea/spices ect. as colonial trade popularises european consumption, with benefits going to those who are able to secure or even monopolise production?
 
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1. Tricky question. Britanny was clearly more aligned with France after the marriage of Alix de Thouars to Pièrre de Dreux, in 1213. That resulted in the elevation to the peerage of France in 1297. Shall we consider it a fully independent country, or one that is considered, by that condition, submitted to the King of France? Tricky. We decided upon the option of considering it a vassal, but we're open to feedback on the matter.
2. There will be game rules allowing locations to change its name to different languages, yes.
3. That is not a possibility currently.
4. We'll take that into consideration (probably making those 'sparse' instead of 'woods'). Thanks!
Hi, Breton history student there. I've been writing for a few years now an essay on Breton history, especially on the barony of Vitré, which, to my satisfaction, is quite accurately depicted on the map. But before talking about Vitré, there is a few points I want to stress. I never posted anything here so this forum thinks I am a bot. I will use screenshots instead of a normal post. I apologise for my rusty English.

1717006221479.png

1717006258899.png

1717006290734.png

EDIT: After thinking about it, I think it would be better to name the Redon county "Porhoët". Yes, Redon's abbaye was powerful but if I have to make a choice, I would rather call it Porhoet, an important medieval county whose borders match the ones I drew for Redon. Ploermel could be its capital.

And one more thing: if Brittany can't have a special status in the game, it would be more accurate/fun to make it independent in my opinion.
 
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Regarding Cherbourg, it's a far older town than you think, as it was a gallic settlement called Coriallo.
Unlike some other settlements in what-would-be-Normandy, the town didn't disappear with the 'germanic invasions'. It kept being a port and as such was used as the main base of action for a viking principalty before beiing annexed by the norman principalty.

Cherbourg was a relevant town before, while and after Project Caesar's timeframe.

I agree that Valognes is important in the Middle Ages, so was the Hague, but we can't put every relevant town. Cherbourg works really fine.

On the other hand, 100% agree on Saint-Lô, it should be replaced by Coutances (and moved a little to the South, so Coutances would be inside the location).