Tinto Maps #30 - 20th of December 2024 - South America

[marsh_otter]

Provinces:

I changed most of the provinces, trying to make them more accurate. Staying over 5 and under 10 locations proved to be more challenging than I expected.
Tumaco: I kept it mostly the same, but I ceded the Patia location to Pubenza.
Pubenza: The name of the valley where Popayan is located.
Caly: I mostly followed the natural borders of the Cauca Valley, but maybe the Caloto location could be ceded to Pubenza too.
Choco: This is a dense province so it remained it mostly the same.
Darien: I picked this name because it wasn't in use anywhere else, it's more clear and I don't really like the name Kuna for the zone.
Sinu: Mostly the same, but I included the Mayaba (Panzenu) location
Nechi: I added the Catios location to it to better follow its natural borders, but only included the northern part of the current Antioquia department.
Aburra: I couldn't think of a better name, but I beleive this is good enough.
Coyaima: I kept this province mostly the same, but I extended it a little for better natural borders.
Bacata: Most of the current day Cundinamarca department. I added to it the Tocaima (plus Tequendama) and Pasca locations instead of Chunsa and Leyva (Moniquira).
Boiaca: Most of the current day Boyaca department plus the province of Velez.
Ondaima: I prefer it to Colombayma, but maybe there's a better name.
Macaregua: I named it after the location where Bucaramanga is, but maybe there's a more fitting name. Most of the Santander department.
Cucuta: Most of the Norte de Santander department.
Mompox: Mostly the same plus the Simiti location.
Teyuna: I couldn't find a good name for this province since historically Teyuna was abandoned during most of the period of the game. Maybe Upar, Tamalameque o a native name for Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta would be more fitting.
Meta: I named it after the Meta river because it's clearer than its current name. The name of the river might be of Spanish origin, but it's too ambiguous to tell with certainty so I think it's fine.
Casanari: The current Yopo province minus Upia for better borders.
Caqueta: After the Caquetá river. Caguan or Yati could work too, but the meaning of Caqueta is more clear since it has been used for a long time when talking about the area.

 

[marsh_otter]

Proposed Raw Goods:

Chicaquicha : Salt. The importance of the Zipaquira and Nemocon salt mines can't be overstated.

Boiaca (Tundama) : Iron. This location contains one of the most important steel mills in the country, in the Paz del Rio municipality.

The Muzo location (I can't read the name but should be called Muzo) : Gems. Historically Colombia has been the largest producer of emeralds in the world and the Muzo mines are the most important emerald mines in the counrty by far. This location shouldn't have anything but gems.

Garagoa (Proposed location) : Gems. This location contains the Somondoco emerald mines (now called Chivor). The second most important in the country.

Choconta : Copper. The mountains around this location contain all kinds of metals, so most of them would be fine. However I don't know about any famous silver mines in this area. The silver rgo should be present in the Mariquita location instead.

Bosa (Chia) : Maize. The Muisca territories were densely populated in part due to the fertility of these soils. During colonial times, the Bogota Savanna was the breadbasket for all kind of mining ventures.

Either Chunsa or Suamox: Potatoes. Potaoes were, and still are, an important part of the local diet and can only grow well in high altitude locations like these ones.

Funza: Maize or Stone. Alum doesn't seem to be common in this part of the country, it could be moved to the Duitama (Moncora) location.

Also, it would be nice if there's an event to turn the rgo of these locations from maize and potatoes into wheat if they're conquered by europeans, since that's what happened historically.



That's all from me. Sorry if by making so many posts I inconvenienced someone.

 

[Simon133000]

Hey! Chilean historian here! I participate in a Mapuche organization, and I study Indigenous history of Chile.

I am thankful with those who shared corrections for the geology and provinces of Chile, but now I want to help with a glance about pre-Columbian culture in this country.

First the easy one. "Taiñ Feyentun" means "Our Beliefs". Last census in Chile there was a campaign among Mapuche people to answer "Mapuche Feyentun", but in some territories I have heard and read just "Feyentun" or "Beliefs", I recommend any of both "Mapuche Feyentun" or "Feyentun". The people who work with Indigenous history and archeology in Chile, as I do, we usually assume it is hard to find the sources for this period, but there are. This museum is a very nice source, not perfect as up to date, but mostly updated: https:/ /chileprecolombino .cl/prehistoria/culturas/.

Also, I created the map in the Wikipedia page "Wallmapu" (Mapuche territory).

First, I want to remember you, "cacique" is a generic Spanish word for Indigenous political leaders, therefore there is a lot of different caciques depending on the region, cultures and languages. The Andes were not a rigid frontier as it is today, as archeology has corroborated commerce was pretty much a normal thing in the past. It was still a frontier, but not as much of a political one as people may think.

North of Chile (Nowadays Arica, Tarapacá, Antofagasta, Coquimbo regions)

1. Some have noted already how there is a need to distinguish> the coast, the coastal mountain ranges, the inner valleys, and the cordillera of the Andes. This is important for Chile in any time of history. The Chango were mostly nomad fishers, but they had great commerce with the people into the Antofagasta desert, mostly who were Aymara and then Quechua people with the Inkan expansion to the south.
2. The Tiwanaku empire dominated the desert up into the year 1000, from there until the year 1470 (when the Inka arrived) there where the Lickan-Antay people spread in the dessert, using irrigation systems that take the water from the air humidity (Camanchaca). They live in the Atacama Desert at least since the year 500 C.E and they spoke the "kunza" language, now extinct language but they speak Spanish and Quechua, as the Inka conquered them.
3. The Kuraq and kurakasgos (curaca in Spanish) were the common leader and administration level, it is like a municipality, most of times they were sedentary, as the Aymara or Quechua people, but some as the Lickan-antay were semi-sedentary, meaning they stay in a place most of the year, but move they entire communities and families once in a while withing a territory to let the ecosystem to rest and recover from harvesting.
4. When the desert start to convert into a semi-arid grassland, there were the Diaguita people (the variety of Kakan who live in Chile), who lived from Coquimbo to Aconcagua. When the Spanish arrived, sources let us know they got so much contact with the Inka (Quechua people) and Mapuche people, they borrowed a lot of words and culture, yet they still had relations with the Kakan in the other side of the Andes. The Diaguita were sedentary and actually allied the Inka instead of fighting them, there is a lot of "Inka-Diaguita" architecture and pottery in Santiago.

Central Chile (Valparaíso, Santiago, Rancagua, Maule, Ñuble)

1. As the Diaguita lived down to Aconcagua, they were a lot of overlap in territories share and fought between Diaguita and Pikunche, mostly in the Aconcagua Valley but when the Inka arrive with Diaguita help, the Mapocho Valley (Santiago) was also shared. As you used "Quillota" as a province, it was in fact the capital of the Inka dominion in what they knew as Chile back then. The Spanish fought the Inka general in control of the province known as Quilicanta, and the Pikunche leader who helped, and they betrayed the Inka and then again with the Spanish, known as Michimalonko. So, you can imagine the territory is not inhabited.
   
   
2. The Mapuche were the people who resisted the Inka, then the Spanish, and then Chile and Argentina up into 1883 so... why the representation of the Mapuche in games often overlooks their cultural and historical significance
   
   From the start: The Mapuche language was shared from the Island of Chiloé up to the Limarí river in Coquimbo, the Spanish saw it as a lingua franca as Quechua was in central Andes. But this doesn't mean the Mapuche culture was everywhere. "Mapuche" is a word the same indigenous group created to call themselves in the 19 century as nationalism was emerging in the continent, before that the Spanish and Mapuche used "Araucanians", but now Historians and Archeologists use retroactively "Mapuche" as it is a better name for this huge group.
   
   The best way to understand the Mapuche back in the 14 century is the Holy Romand Empire. A Bavarian was not culturally the same as a someone from Hannover, but we group them all as German. As there were North-Germans and South-Germans, we have different Mapuche groups culturally similar called "Fütalmapu" or "great territories", and you can think those as provinces. Fütalmapu were formed by alliances and geography, and as we don't have writer registry from back then, archeologists prefer to use found artifacts, so we know some groups were more similar than others.
   
   The actual consensus between Mapuche and non-Mapuche (those respectful enough to indigenous people) experts, is that the culturally defined group from the 13 century started to converge in alliances as they saw menace from other groups, Mapuche, Diaguita or whatever, later Inka or Spanish. The Aconcagua people and Mapocho people were similar enough the Inka called them all as "Purum Awqa", pejorative name. They were the Pikunche, considered as the Mapuche who live from Aconcagua Valley to the Maule River. The Mapocho Valley (Santiago) is the first valley to be continuous to the south, as the valleys to the north are closed by mountains.
   
   
3. A note, the Inka founded an administrative urban center in the Mapocho Valley, now known as Santiago de Chile, as the conquistador Pedro de Valdivia founded his city with the infrastructure of the Inka. They called it the "Cuzco of the Mapocho", as it had a river with two arms and similar mountains. Obviously, it was tinier and fewer population, but there are maps of where that Indigenous population were, as Quilicura, Lampa, Pudahuel, Melipilla, Huechuraba, Ñuñoa, Maipu, Apoquindo and Manquehue (and others). Most of these can be found in this paper: "Mapocho Incaico", but there is also "Mapocho Incaico Norte" and "Mapocho Incaico Sur".

Southern Chile (Bio-Bio, Araucanía, Los Rios, Los Lagos)

1. The Bio-Bio river was the frontier of what the Mapuche considered north (pikun), the pottery also changes from here and even settlement changes without the Quechua and Diaguita influences, but we know they knew about each other as products like potatoes were found by archeologists even from Peru deep into southern Chile (And here we have the oldest human rests in the Americas)
   
   
2. Here diversity gets harder, and most sources are a little bit earlier, from the 16 century and even 17 centuries. But we know there were 4 big differences: Mapuche from the coast (Lafkenche), from the valleys (Nagche), from the Andes or closer (Pewenche), and from the south (Williche). Chiloé may be different from "Cunco" people, but they were assimilated into the Mapuche culture quite fast. in the 16 and 17 centuries.

I tried to make a map with changes in culture, but I really hope you do better and more accurately in this forgotten territory. As a Civ 6 player, I was so happy with Lautaro and the Mapuche Civ, and with HOI4 I even shared about the game with almost every Mapuche I know and talk. I know you can do it better; I hope so it is.

For now, I am tired, I am making PPTs for a class I'll give in January about Mapuche history in a university.

Happy new year. Ayiwün winka we tripantu. Feliz año nuevo.

Sources:

• Museo de Arte Precolombino de Santiago
• Bengoa, José, Historia de los Antiguos Mapuche del Sur. Desde antes de la llegada de los españoles hasta las paces de Quilin. Santiago: Catalonia, 2018.
• Bengoa, José. Historia del Pueblo Mapuche. Siglo XIX y XX. Santiago: LOM, 2000.
• Informe de la Comisión Verdad Histórica y Nuevo Trato con los Pueblos Indígenas. 2008.
• Mariman, Pablo, et al. ¡…Escucha, winka…! Cuatro ensayos de Historia Nacional Mapuche y un epílogo sobre el futuro. Santiago: LOM, 2006.
• Mariman, Pablo, et al. ¡Allkütunge, wingka! ¡ki kiñechi! Ensayos sobre historias mapuche. Temuco: Ediciones Comunidad de Historia Mapuche, 2019.
• Zavala, José Manuel. Los mapuches del siglo XVIII. Dinámica interétnica y estrategias de resistencia. Temuco: Ediciones Universidad Católica de Temuco, 2011.
• Guaman Poma de Ayala. Primer nueva corónica y buen gobierno. 1615 (1936).
• Alonso de Ercilla. La Araucana. Vol 1, 2 and 3. 1569, 1578 and 1589.
• The work of Rubén Stehberg and Gonzalo Sotomayor (RIP) https:// mapochoincaico .cl/

 

[nyetflix2]

I'm going to start combining my culture/language feedback into one post.

• There is a strong case for expanding Aimaran-speaking cultures to cover much of the southern Peruvian highlands. The Incas may not have been Quechua-speaking at all until their victory over the Chancas, and used Aymara as the main language of administration.
• Aimara culture could be split along the lines of the "Aimara kingdoms", to be more symmetrical with the Quechua cultures and the cultures of the Yungas.
• The Incas may have used Pukina as a secret language, which could fit the role of court language or perhaps liturgical language.
• The Kallawaya culture should be Pukina-speaking.
• I doubt the Wari culture existed in the distribution you've given it, would like to hear your reasoning. To be honest, it looks like after adding cultures you could find information on, you filled in the gaps with Wari as a default culture in Peru. I don't think it's a good idea to assume areas formerly belonging to the Wari Empire were "their culture" unless proven otherwise.
• The Quechua language should not be present any farther north than Culle. Most of that area should be replaced by relatives of Culle.
• Arawakan, Chibchan, Cariban, Je should be language families, not single languages.
• Portraying the Tupi and Guarani languages, along with other close relatives, as a single language makes a lot of sense. However, you simply used "Tupi-Guarani" as a label to cover all Tupian languages, which are a much more diverse family that should be broken down like the other big families of South America. Wuyjuyu, Satere-Mawe, Yjxa, Paiter, Purubora + Wajuru are the Tupian languages shown here which do not belong to the Tupi-Guarani branch and thus are more distantly related.
• Ta-Arawakan and Kalinago to refer to the entirety of the Arawakan and Cariban families are misnomers. The first is a very academic term for a linguistic branch, the second is the endonym of the Island Caribs.
• There should be plenty of Puquina-speaking minorities in the Titicaca basin, and even a couple locations where they'd be a majority.
• There should also be lower populations of Uru minorities around Lake Titicaca and Lake Poopo.
• Chachapoya was not a Cariban language. It was probably related to Culle and Hibito-Cholon, so all these need unified in a language family or language.
• I'm unaware of any evidence for the Quimbaya language being Cariban. Costenla-Umaña seems to allude to it being Chocoan.
• On the other hand I would include Bagua (in the northern Peruvian Amazon) and Panche (in the Magdalena Valley of Colombia) as Cariban languages
• Inga and Napuruna cultures should not exist yet, Quechua spreading there only after the Inca conquest and later by Spanish missionaries. They should be replaced by Kamentsa (and/or Quillacinga) and Quijo respectively.
• Can't find anything on "Kukakuna" but it looks like it corresponds to the location of Hibito? If it's a Quechua exonym, I would suggest replacing it.
• Kanari (southern Ecuador) needs the tilde, to become Kañari. Kanyari also works.
• Atallan is another name for Tallan, so if it exists, it should be used by that culture, not Guancavilca.
• Kanari, Puruha, and Tallan should not use the Quingnam language, but rather the Muchik language, following the Chimuan hypothesis. Yes, the terminology of it all is confusing, but focus on the languages included.
• Atacame, Manta, Guancavilca, Coaque have also been proposed as relatives of the Muchik language, see here under 'Varieties'.
• I'd prefer to rename Xllang culture to Muchik, Mochica, Sican or even Lambayeque. Xllang seems to just be their word for sun, which iirc wasn't even their main deity?
• The "Tumaco" culture of southwest Colombia should probably be considered Barbacoan-speaking, as there are records of old Barbacoan varieties in that area including one called Tumaco. There are many others that were spoken in the lowlands of the Narino department.
• it looks like Andaqui might be better grouped with Paez/Pijao or even the Barbacoan languages
• Cueva would probably be better considered Choco-speaking, rather than Chibchan.
• Not sure why Arawakan-speaking cultures are present in the locations of Kotosh and Pumpu in central Peru, they should be some neighboring Andean culture.
• Would be curious to see the source on Canta and Coaillique (?) cultures speaking Muchik.
• I'd take off the plural -s from E'ñepá, Guaribe, Cuica, Ayaman and the adjectival -n from Jirajara and Quechua

Sources:

• Las Lenguas de los Incas - Pedro Cerron Palomino - gives evidence that the Incas spoke Puquina originally and later as a secret language, that they were Aymara-speaking in the "Kingdom of Cusco" period, and that Aymara was widespread/dominant in the southern highlands
• La "Lengua Guzmango" en Cajamarca Colonial - Gabriel Ramon, Luis Andrade - gives evidence that the area of modern the Cajamarca department was not Quechua speaking.
• Languages of the Middle Andes in areal-typological perspective: Emphasis on Quechuan and Aymaran - Willem Adelaar - gives evidence of Aymara being widespread in the southern highlands
• Linguistic and cultural divisions in pre-Hispanic Northern Peru - Matthias Urban
• Elementos de fonología comparada Chocó - Adolfo Constela Umaña, Enrique Margery Peña - gives evidence for the Chocoan affiliation of Cueva, and alludes to Chocoan affiliation for Quimbaya
• Apuntes para la historia de los puquinahablantes - Thérèse Bouysse-Cassagne

 

[Sebroar]

Unfortunately I couldn't find many resources on the Internet, nor I could understand how to use QGiS, so I cannot provide a lot of feedback.

What I can give you, however, are these maps from the Italian edition of The conquest of the Incas by John Hemming. Maybe they can be helpful. Sorry for the bad quality of some of these. Also, the projection is not specified. The legends are in Italian, if you need a translation for them I can provide it.

Spoiler: Maps

Another thing I could notice are these two locations:

Incahuasi and Incawasi are the same word, with Incahuasi being the colonial Quechua spelling and Incawasi being a mix of the colonial and modern ones. While I'm aware that that name refers to two different places (plus a bunch of other ones, apparently it's a very common toponym), maybe it would be better if you changed one of them to another settlement nearby, if possible. From what I can tell, Huaytara (called Huaitará on the above maps) is part of Incawasi, or it's very close, so that could be a valid option.

 

[ratomodesto]

Este é um mapa incompleto da minha proposta, veja que (Pará e Mato Grosso não foram feitos) e algumas partes estão em andamento (Rio Grande do Sul). Não diga que fui apologista: Muita gente pediu no começo para acrescentar mais localidades e eu me opus, não porque não quisesse, mas para ficar equilibrado. Veja o terreno intransitável entre Cananéia e Paranaguá (quando pode não ser, mas acho justo) ou no oeste do Maranhão. Garanto que as regiões de São Paulo, Jacareí e Campinas são uma obra-prima.

View attachment 1233818

Note: the map does not open on mobile devices because of its large resolution (10K) To be continued.

Excellent map! I also liked the references to the indigenous names of the provinces, great touch.

I just wonder if it wouldn't be better to slightly increase the density of the impassable terrains in your proposal, although I agree that the initial proposal for the PC has too many impassable terrains.

Perhaps the vegetation and low development of the provinces compensate for the difficulty (or lack of interest) in colonizing non-coastal areas.

 

[Braziler]

Excellent map! I also liked the references to the indigenous names of the provinces, great touch.

I just wonder if it wouldn't be better to slightly increase the density of the impassable terrains in your proposal, although I agree that the initial proposal for the PC has too many impassable terrains.

Perhaps the vegetation and low development of the provinces compensate for the difficulty (or lack of interest) in colonizing non-coastal areas.

Thanks. I'm reseaching indigenous names to every location (not possible to all, but to around 80% yes). Maybe some areas would have minors impassable areas, but I can't update it now. Some way, devs have the relief and vegetation maps to draw what they fink good based on their criteria.

 

[Eduspace05]

Why does Peru have so few ports, did I miss any reasonable explanation?

 

[eric_achado]

I'm pretty certain wome harbors are missing in the South and South East of Brazil, first and most important the harbor os Santos in the island of são vicente, I'd love if the island of são vicente was shown as a region maybe merged with the island of Guarujá, but anyway, the harbor of Santos is in the protected side of an estuary island and was used as such for a since the early 15 hundreds, according to various secondary sources such as its official site. And it's currently the lagest portuary complex in latin America.

There are some other natural Harbors that seem to be missing such as in the current cities of cubatao and cananeia, in the city of paranagua, in the city of Joinville, in the island of Florianópolis

All are protected harbors, have current harbors and exist as cities because of the harbor.

 

[marsh_otter]

I have a new proposal for the region around the current day Santander Department in Colombia:

In this map I marked the location of the indigenous name with a point and the location of the Spanish name with a star.

* The Camacota location is now limited mostly to the Serranía de Los Yariguíes zone, except for the hills around Chipatá and Zapatoca. Its northern border is the Sogamoso river and its eastern border the Suarez river. It should have the Yarigui culture.
* The Chalalá location covers the Socorro, Oiba and Charalá municipalities. This was a very dynamic zone, especially during the 18th century. It managed to become one of the wealthiest provinces in New Granada and the Revolt of the Comuneros began here. Its terrain isn't so rugged so it could have the Hills terrain type. Traditionally it has been considered part of the Guane territory, some sources say it was Muisca instead, and some recent works say that the Chalala culture was independent from both of them. But for the sake of abstraction and gameplay, it should have the Guane culture.
* I changed the Macaregua location to cover San Gil, Barichara, Curití, Mogotes and the Chicamocha Canyon to the north of Soatá. Its northern borders are the valley of the Umpalá river and the Chicamocha river. This covers the most important Guane sites except for Mesa de Los Santos. I kept the Macaregua name because it sounds nicer than my original proposal of Móncora. It should have the Guane culture and be the capital of the Guane SoP. San Gil is one of the most important cities in the Santander department and it should be the Spanish name of this location.
* I chose Butaregua as the name of the location around Bucaramanga because it thymes with Macaregua, it begins the same way as Bucaramanga, and it was one of the most northern Guane settlements with a name. It covers Mesa de Los Santos, Piedecuesta, Bucaramanga, Zapatoca and Betulia. Its northern border is roughly the current border between the Santander and North Santander departments. The Guane culture didn't actually extend this far north (most credible sources place their northern border around Piedecuesta or Giron) but they are the most prominent indigenous culture in the zone and this location is already small enough. Even though Bucaramanga is the current capital of the Sandander department and was founded 400 years ago, San Juan de Girón (or just Girón) was more important until the 19th century.
* I didn't change the Tora location compared to my previous feedback. Its borders are the Opón, Magdalena and Cáchira rivers and the Serranía de Los Yariguíes. Its culture should be Yarigui.

These five locations make up the Guanentá province. I picked the name Guanentá after the current Guantená province in the Santander deparment and because according to tradition this was the name/title of the leader of the Guane people.

Cotton and textiles were important for the Guane people and for the economy of the region until the 19th century, so at least one of the three Guane locations should have cotton as their RGO.

I also propose the following changes for the Cucuta province:
* The current wasteland between the Cubará and Babichas locations is too large and doesn't make much sense. That's why in that zone I placed a new location with the name Chitagá (replacing the current Chitagaes location). To the north, this location covers the current municipalilites of Pamplona, Pamplonita, Chitagá and Toledo. To the south it covers the upper valleys of the Servitá and Guaca rivers around Málaga, because historically these zones were inhabited by people of the Chitarero culture. The Cocuy wasteland should separate this location from the Tundama location because you should have to descend to the Chicamocha Canyon to reach it. Pamplona is one of the most important cities in this part of the country, but since the name is already in use in Spain, "Pamplona de Indias" should be used instead.
* The name Babichas isn't very fitting for a location and doesn't seem to be very historical either. I propose Chinácota since it's an indigenous name, it has existed since the early colonial times and its one of the largest cities in the North Santander department. It covers most of the original Bachichas location, including Chinácota, Arboledas and the Suratá and Cachirí valleys. I also included the Salazar de las Palmas and Cáchira municipalities. Additionally, since the lower Catatumbo is accesible from Cáchira and historically there was a road to get there from Salazar de las Palmas (according to the 1865 map made by Agustín Codazzi). I reduced the size of the wasteland to the south of the Catatumbo location to just Paramo Jurisdicciones to prevent direct access from the Butaregua location.
* I extended the Cucuta location to the west, covering most of the original Chitagaes location, while keeping it to the west of the Tachira river, the current border between Colombia and Venezuela.

* You can't see it in the map, but I propose splitting in half the current Catabumbo location. To the south of the municipalities of Carmen, Convención and Hacari, the climate and landscape are completely diferent, with red soils and drier conditions. For this location I propose the name of Borotaré (now Brotaré) an indigenous settlement close to Ocaña that's present in some old maps and inscriptions. Since there's already a location called Ocaña in Spain, the name Santa Ana de Ocaña should be used instead.
* For the northern half of the Catatumbo location, I propose the name Ishtana since that's the toponym used by the Barí people to refer to their land. Catatumbo can be the colonial name.
* I kept the Hacaritamas location mostly the same, and for the lack of a better toponym I propose Hacaritama in singular. It's colonial name should be Aguachica.
These three locations should have the Barí culture instead of Kalinago.

I might make further proposals for zones that could use more locations in the Caribbean Lowlands.

Also, this is unrealed to this zone but after thinking for a while I consider that the current Ebejico location should be split in two: Ebéjico/Sopetrán to the south and Buriticá/Santafé de Antioquía to the north.

 

[marsh_otter]

This is my new proposal for the Sinu zone:

Since there's less information about this zone I was less careful with the borders than with my previous proposal, but I divided most locations in two and changed a few shapes.

The Finzenú province contains the following five locations:

* Cereté: Previously part of the Sinu and Upper Sinu locations, Cereté was close to the main Finzenú settlements and was the most important city in this location until the late 19th century when Montería replaced it. The hills around Ciénaga de Oro are its eastern border, its northern border the wetlands around Lorica and Momil, but the rest of them are arbitrary.
* Chimá (Santa Cruz de Lorica): Santa Cruz de Lorica is the second most populous city in the Córdoba department and has been an importat river port since it's foundation in the early 18th century. It's indigenous name, Chimá, has appeared as a toponym since the 16th century, but the town with that name wasn't founded until the late 18th century. This location also contains the town of San Antero, that's almost a century older but became mostly irrelevant after Lorica's foundation. It's western border lies somewhere between Momil and San Andrés de Sotavento.
* Tolú: Santiago de Tolú is one of the oldest cities in this country and one of its most important ports. Its natural harbor level should be a little better than now. This location contains Tolú, Coveñas, San Onofre and part of the Toluviejo municipality.
* Pinchorroy (San Bernardo del Viento): I couldn't find a fitting indigenous toponym for this location so I picked one that was used in settlements in both the Chimá and Mexión locations but doesn't seem to be currently in use. San Bernardo del Viento was founded in the late 18th century, it's the most populous municipality in the coast of the Córdoba department and the only one that appears in the Codazzi map from 1865.
* Betancí: It should be mostly the same as the original "Zenues" location, it covers the upper Sinú river and the Valencia and Tierralta municipalities. The name Betancí comes from the "Ciénaga de Betancí" that's currently located in the Montería municipality, so the northern border should be expanded a little to include it.

The Panzenú province contains the following eight locations:

* Ayapel: One of the most important Panzenú sites, around "Ciénaga de Ayapel" (a body of water that due to its importance and extension should appear in the map) and also one of the oldest cities in the zone.
* Uré: All of the municipalities in the upper San Jorge river are relatively recent but the current "Mayaba" location extends too far to the south and it's not like this area is a wasteland (Montelíbano has a larger population than Ayapel) so I picked the name of the Uré river.
* Tacasuán (San Benito Abad): Another noteworthy Panzenú site and one of the oldest towns in the current Sucre department. Nowadays San Benito Abad is much less relevant than nearby San Marcos, but that wasn't the case until the 20th century.
* Majagual: A strategic middle point between Nechi and Magangué, and one of the few towns in that zone that appear in older maps.

* Mexión (San Juan de Sahagún): The name of both the creator god of the Sinu people and its most important settlement. I'm not actually sure if it was a Panzenu or Finzenu site (or none of them like in the case of Sogamoso for the Muisca people), but I included it in the Panzenú province because it looks better that way with the current borders. For its Spanish name I picked San Juan de Sahagún because it's the largest town in this location, but Chinú and San Andrés de Sotavento are older towns that could work too.
* Sincel (Sincelejo): The current capital and most important city in the Sucre department. It includes the Sincé, Corozal and Sampués municipalities.
* Magangué: Another strategic port connecting the Cauca, Magdalena and San Jorge rivers. Nowadays it's the second most populous city in the Bolivar department. It didn't become more important than Mompox until the 19th century, nut it was very relevant during the independence war.
* Oné (Montes de María): The western half of the original Oné location, different enough from the coast to deserve its own location separate from Tolú. It's most important city is Carmen de Bolivar, was known originally as just Carmen, but since that's too ambiguous, I picked the name of the whole zone.

Besides these two provinces I also propose creating new locations for:

* San Juan de Tenerife (Zapayán), to the north of Plato (Malibú, originally Zarate).
* Chimichagua, to the north of El Banco (Sompachai, originally Tamalameque).
* Tamalameque (The southern third of the current Curumanao [Curumaní] location)
* Chiriguaná (The northern third of the current Curumanao location, extending it a little to the north).
* Turbo (to the South of Necoclí)
* Ciénaga (Papare. After the Papare encomienda, north of Ciénaga). Using the eastern half of the current Kamach (Camach) location and that little bit of flat terrain in the Chayrama location where Cienaga is located. It should have the Malibu culture instead of Tayrona.

Additionally the Sicarate location should be Sicarare (Becerril) instead.

 

[Baisch]

First of all, I want to say the development team has done an amazing job on almost all the maps we’ve seen so far. Most of them look fantastic, with only a few minor details that might need tweaking. However, I believe the map for Brazil (and more broadly South America) requires significant improvement to better reflect both historical accuracy and the spirit of the game.

I can't say the same for this one. Its such an disappointment what was done in south america, its an incredible continent, so rich of resources and different terrains, people and cultures at the time, and nowadays it -could- be as rich as north america, its not mainly because of the politics of the colonial empires during the game time, which prioritized other areas of the world, and modern politics. This map completely misses the point of the game, which is of the -possibility- of changing history to you taste, using the resources of the planet and people.
Its also a big disappointment to me the difference of treatment of south vs north america.

• In North America, the maps includes many areas that were not heavily developed or colonized by 1836. Yet they are included in the game because of the possibility that a colonizer might have arrived earlier, or a small European state might have chosen to focus on the New World.
• This same logic should apply to South America—particularly Brazil. Just because Portugal lacked the resources or the inclination to settle certain parts of Brazil early on does not mean these areas were inhospitable or worthless. On the contrary, many were extremely fertile and had existing indigenous populations that could have facilitated (or challenged) colonization efforts.

But in south america, those wastelands in the southeast of brazil make 0 sense at all. Those lands are incredibly fertile and milions of people live there today because of it, and its also the richest part of Brazil by far. They were not settled early not because of lack of possibility or resources, but because people didnt have interest, as the land was so big and portugal being a small country, it didn't had the resources to colonize it so quickly, but it was easy to do so, and a lot of indigenous people lived there too. The vastness of the land of brazil is overlooked by people even today because of the mercator projection, but brazil's land area is incredibly big, and could have hosted many nations if divided between european powers.
I can show it with this maps, ot the 16th century indigenous populations :

the study this maps come from have this link - journals . openedition. org / confins/ 43014 - but i can't put it because of spam filters (?) so remove the spaces

And if you do a quick search you can find many other maps of these indigenous people all around it. The 'mata atlantica' was not that hard to transverse also, and many expeditions from the so called 'bandeirantes' traversed through it, and it could be made into fertile land easily by just throwing fire into the land.

One of the most notable omissions on the current map is the Minas Gerais region. Historically, it was the site of crucial gold and diamond mines in areas like Ouro Preto and Diamantina. During the 18th century, these resources were vital to Portugal’s economy and its triangular trade with Great Britain. These mines also played a central role in major historical events, such as the Inconfidência Mineira (1789), an early independence/separatist movement inspired by Enlightenment ideas, which happend influenced by the independence of the US and influences from the french revolution. Leaving these regions off the map removes not only a vital piece of real-world history but also a strategic location that could have significant in-game potential.

The lands in São Paulo (and beyond, including Paraná) that the game has labeled as wasteland were key to Brazil’s coffee boom in the 18th and 19th centuries and later became a hub for railroad development. If an alternate-colonization scenario had occurred earlier in history—such as the French or Dutch displacing the Portuguese—there’s no reason these areas wouldn’t have seen even earlier development. Dismissing them as uncolonizable wasteland neglects the core idea of the game: shaping history differently through player choices. Those lands could have been used before, like in north america, but they werent because, as stated, the empire of portugal didn't have the drive to colonize all the land available. Brazil is way larger than it looks on the maps, because of the mercator projection, and many people miss that.
The attraction of Europa Universalis has always been that it allows players to rewrite history. Seeing a large, fertile, and resource-rich part of Brazil represented as worthless territory undermines that sense of possibility. South America deserves the same nuance and attention to detail that North America has in the game.

Imagine if the French or Dutch had won their colonial wars against Portugal and colonized areas of what is now Brazil. The results could have been radically different, which is exactly the kind of “what if?” scenario this game should explore. It’s especially disheartening that my home region—a fertile, resource-rich part of Paraná with over one million inhabitants today and evidence of 16th-century colonies—is portrayed as a wasteland. This choice removes the opportunity for players to rewrite history. It makes me sad that i can't play as say, an italian nation and use all my efforts to colonize this area of brazil and make it the strongest of the world because it was turned into a wasteland, even though that could be possible even in real life.

In reality, the Mata Atlântica wasn’t as impenetrable as the Amazon rainforest and could have been developed, had the necessary resources and determination been allocated (and actually it was colonized way earlier than 1836) . Unfortunately, it seems like the developers didn’t fully consider these regions, which is a little disappointing, but this can still be fixed.

I hope the developers will revisit the Brazilian map (especially in the southeast) to showcase its true historical and strategic significance. If any areas deserve to be marked as difficult terrain, it should be only some spots in the Serra do Mar region, which, despite being challenging to traverse, was already crossed by the 16th century—leading to the founding of São Paulo, Brazil's now richst city, in 1554. As for the so-called “Mata Atlântica,” labeling it entirely as wasteland is wrong and should, in my view, be all removed to preserve the spirit of historical possibility that defines EU5. I didn't provide any 'locations' map proposal because many already did and i think they made a good job on it.

 

[toastmann]

I have a nitpick with regards to the Wichi religion: I'm not sure Tokuah is a perfectly suitable name for it? Tokjuaj isn't exactly a god they'd worship as far as I understand. In fact, he's more of a troublemaker. The religion could be called "Wichi," but if preferred it might be named after Nilataj, who is the god that created the Earth, or Pulesleley, which refers to all powerful celestial spirits. (Source: "A Look at the Sky of the Wichi" by Mariani, Mauro; Gomez, Cecilia Paula; Giménez Benítez, Sixto Ramón.) The spam filter won't let me post the link directly, but it's available on the website of the Repositorio Institucional CONICET Dígital.

 

[zeruosi]

I hope Amazon Plain can be like CK3's ATE module. Amazon is too rough now

 

[Wildrake]

I might be wrong, but areas around Titicaca should have a better climate, this is where a major cities are located.

 

[nyetflix2]

I'm confused as to the logic behind assigning the Moche religion of Naylamp to so many non-Moche cultures, like the Culle, Huayla, Ichma and even the Arawakan Yanesha. I really don't get it.

 

[gatoou]

Hello, and first of all, I want to congratulate the team for an amazing work they've been doing, the game looks like its gonna be awesome!

Now, as for my contribution, I'd like to comment on the state of Chilean areas and locations. I've read some of the comments other people have made on Chilean stuff, like the cultures and geography, so I'm bringing an idea of how the map could look like.

Starting with what we call "Norte Grande" aka, the regions of Arica, Tarapacá and Antofagasta:

As we all know, the Atacama desert is the driest hot desert in the world, drier than the Sahara, so, taking inspiration on how the locations look around the arabian and north african lands, I suggest doing something similar, kinda like this:

As you can see, the locations are changed from "blocks" to "spots", which would be connected in the way I show with black lines. (The red line going from Putre into Bolivia is because there's a pass missing over there). Doing it like this would solve the Camanchaco (change from Chango to Camanchaco, as it's the name they're legally recognized in Chile) vs Aimara/Licanantay problem with the locations cultures that has been pointed out by other people.

Finally, the way the locations would be grouped to make up the provinces are shown in the picture. For Antofagasta I have Mejillones with a * because it wasn't as important as other locations back then. As for the Area, both of them would make up the Area of "Atacama".

Some comments about this proposal:

• Natural harbors: Arica, Iquique and Antofagasta (at least).
• The coastal dots should have Camanchaco culture (Tacna, Arica, Picagua, Huara, Iquique, Tocopilla, Cobija, Mejillones, Antofagasta)
• The inland dots in Tarapacá should have Aimara culture (Putre, Tarapacá, Pica).
• And the ones in Antofagasta should have Licanantay culture (Quillagua, Calama, Tulor).

(1/3, as it didn't allow me to post it all in one go )

 

[gatoou]

(2/3 )

Going a bit south, to the nowadays Regions of Copiapó and Coquimbo I propose:

It may be strange that I put Paposo and Tltal in Copiapó, but we have to remember that back then, before the war of the pacific, which happens in the late 19th century, Copiapó had up to Paposo, which was the frontier with Bolivia.

To solve the problem with the proposed Area of Cuyo, which has been explained that doesn't make any sense going into Chile, the proposed Elki province would be split into two new provinces, Copiapo and Coquimbo, and in turn, those two would make up the area of Coquimbo, and for that it would have to have more locations, which could be the ones I show in the picture (Liwen would not be part of this, as it has always been part of Aconcagua/Quillota/Valparaíso, even before the time the Spanish arrived).

If for balance reasons, there's too many locations, I would then delete Combarbalá and Salamanca, keeping just Limari and Illapel as they are current shown.

Some comments about this proposal:

• Natural harbors: Coquimbo, and analyze for Taltal and Caldera.
• Camanchaco culture in Paposo, Taltal, Chañaral and Caldera, with a presence in Huasco, Coquimbo, Limarí and Illapel.
• Diaguita (Pazioca) culture in the rest of the provinces
• Could have some really small pops of Pikunche up to Coquimbo.
• There should be a pass going from Vicuña into Argentina.

 

[gatoou]

(3/3 yay) Keeping going south, we finally arrive to the central valleys of Chile, from Valparaíso to Biobío:
First of all, as it has been explained by other people in previous posts, the geology of Chile changes from here on, in which mountain chains change from going east-west, to north-south, having the so called "Depresión Intermedia", something like the San Joaquin Valley in California. So, taking that into consideration, I propose the following:

Alongside the geographical aspect, I also took into consideration the comments about the locations density, as this part of the country is where the majority of the population lives, and the best agricultural lands are. So, to do this, I divided the Province of Pikunmapu into two new Provinces, Mapocho (or could be just Santiago) and Concepción, which in turn combine to form the Area of Pikunmapu (or could be just Chile).
Some comments about this proposal:

• Liwen comes into this area, as explained before.
• All this area culture should be Pikunche, not Purum Awqa, as it has been explained by other people, it was a derogatory term used by the Inka.
  • If it feels too much of one culture, the Pikunche in the Valparaíso and Santiago regions could be renamed Aconcagua, as they showed some special development due to Inka/Diaguita influence, but still fall into the Mapuche culture group. Either way, those same locations should have some Diaguita pops.
• Quillu Uta is split in two, Quillu Uta and Marga Marga, which would turn into Valparaíso, and should have a max rank harbor, as Valparaíso was the most important port in the area up until very recently, way more important the the San Antonio port.
• Another natural harbor should be in Constitución, as it's the main port in the Maule Region.

Another posibility, if having three areas is too much, would be taking re-arranging the locations for Copiapó, and having the Area of Chile be from Copiapó up to Concepción, as it would be just like the Colonial Chile used to look like. In the map linked you can see Paposo being the north limit, and Concepción to the south.

And that's all for now, I shall work on proposals for the Biobio to the south.

Thank you for your time!

 

[gatoou]

Well, I'm back to continue with my proposals, and as I said on the previous post, this time is from the Biobio river to the south.

As for the Butalmapu, I think it's alright, as it depicts the historical alliances that existed over there.

To the south of there, I have my criticisms:

1. As of right now, Willimapu is just 6 locations for an area around 74000km2 (for reference, the Netherlands is around 41000 km2).
2. Another point, that I've seen other people talk about too, is the Chubut area, which shouldn't go into the locations on the Pacific.
3. And finally, I'd like to point out the Aonikenk, Karukinka and Yaghan Provinces, which wouldn't allow to (kind of) depict the current limits between Chile and Argentina down there.

So, to solve those points I propose:

For the Pikunwillimapu + Caurakawin locations:

I divided it into 15 locations + a new wasteland (hills), which might look weird being on the coast, but it's quite visible from space:

Spoiler

Because of these many locations, it might be better to divide it up into two new Areas:

• Locations in Pikunwillimapu -> Calle Calle/Valdivia Area
  • Mariquina
  • Ainil (or Valdivia)
  • Trumao
  • Panguipulli
  • Futrono
  • Ranco
• Locations in Caurakawin -> Reloncaví Area
  • Osorno
  • Purranque
  • Quelenhue (I made that name up, based on Frutillar but in mapudungun, for "place/land of strawberries")
  • Carelmapu
  • Puyehue
  • Llanquihue
  • Calbuco (which could turn into Puerto Montt)
  • Hornopirén (or Piren as you have it currently)
  • Cochamó (or Reloncaví, a new location, as there is a land conection over there, which would make Puel Co not touch the pacific)

Spoiler

All there three Areas, Butalmapu, Valdivia/Calle Calle, and Reloncaví would make up a new Area. I don't really have a name for it, as there's not one that fits perfectly, so it could be something like Willi Ngulumapu (as Willimapu by itself is just from Valdivia to the south, without the Butalmapu).

Some comments about this proposal:

• Culture should be, Mapuche in Butalmapu, and Williche in Valdivia and Reloncaví areas. It doesn't make sense to have, from north to south) Mapuche then Williche then Mapuche again.
• Natural harbors in at least Valdivia and Calbuco/Puerto Montt. And maybe consider one, but min level, for Trumao, as it used to have a waterway which used to give Osorno access to the sea by boat.

Another thing I'd like to point out now that we're talking about these lands, is the SoPs and Countries present in Chile.
Based on what I've read on other Tinto Maps, it doesn't make sense that only the Mapuche in Butalmapu are present are SoPs, because all of the pikunche/mapuche/huilliche lands were pretty much similar in their political structure, being more of less family clans. So for this, I'd make all of the Ngulumapu "populated", with Pikunche, Mapuche and Huilliche SoP. For some flavour, it could be that the locations pop up as countries if there's a settled neighbour, specially with the Pikunches in the Quillota/Aconcagua/Mapocho locations with the arrival of the Inka, as they recieved a lot of inka/diaguita influence in terms of economic, infrastructure and political development, even being able to fight the Inka back and even resist the Spanish for some time (not for as long as the mapuche though).

As for the nothern lands, the Diaguita (Pazioca), Licanantay and Aimara peoples should be settled countries, as they did have the political development, having chiefs and infrastructure and all that.


Now back to the geographic proposals.
South of there, I propose a new Chiloé Area:

This new Area would be made up by 4 provinces, Chiloé, Paine, Kawesqar (or Eastern Tierra del Fuego) and Yaghan (or Southern Tierra del Fuego).
Here I would pay attención to Kawesqar and Yaghan, to re-arrange the limits of locations, to give a somewhat better depiction of how the borders between Chile and Argentina look like.
Culture wise, I would rename the Guaiteca culture to Chono.


That's all for now, thank you for your time!