Tinto Maps #30 - 20th of December 2024 - South America

[bokorthedust]

Have you tried breaking it up in multiple posts? Maybe it helps.

This, or go dick around in the general subforum to increase your post count a bit. I imagine it must be annoying, but don't let your work go to waste

 

[marsh_otter]

Thanks for the advice, I'll try again tomorrow. For now, I'll go to sleep.

 

[nyetflix2]

@Pavía when you get a chance could you please post some closer screenshots of the SoPs and cultures in Peru and Bolivia so we can make out their names?

 

[nyetflix2]

As long as we're talking about maté, I think Chicha also deserves to be in game, as it held a high religious and cultural importance in most indigenous Andean and many Central American societies. It could be represented by a production method to turn maize into beer. See the wiki section on its importance in Inca society.

Also, not a joke, but could coca be represented in game somehow? It is also very important to indigenous Andean cultures. See here and here.

 

[nyetflix2]

Perhaps the groups here besides the Huaylas and Chimu could be added as small SoPs in the Ancash region?

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

Also, not a joke, but could coca be represented in game somehow? It is also very important to indigenous Andean cultures. See here and here.

Could this be covered under Medicaments?

 

[nyetflix2]

Could this be covered under Medicaments?

Hm yes it looks like they might have already been counting it as medicaments!

 

[nyetflix2]

It looks like Cueva would be better considered to be speakers of the "Choco" language, rather than Chibchan.

From this article:

 

[marsh_otter]

I had to rewrite most of my feedback and I'll begin with some miscellaneous considerations since it looks like I can't post images:

The Cauca Valley:
This has been noted in other posts, but the Cauca Valley is really flat, all the way from Jamundi to Cartago and the terrain type of most of the locations between them should be changed to Plateau to reflect this. Some additional locations can be added in the most mountainous parts. Also, I believe that a Mountain location should be between the flat Sonso location and the plateau in Caly to portray the dramatic change in elevation and ruggedness of the terrain. Extending the Vijes location to surround Caly could be a simple solution, even if it isn't too accurate.

The Magdalena Valley:
There should be Flatland locations all the way to Neiva (Otas), with a couple of hilly locations around Tocaima and Coyaima. Also, the Tatacoa Desert is in the Otas location so the Wood vegetation type doesn't feel quite right, its vegetation type could be changed to Grassland to represent this or maybe a new location with Sparse vegetation could be added to differentiate the flat, arid area between Aipe and Neiva fromt the rest of it that could remain as a hilly, wooded location.

La Guajira Peninsula:
La Guajira is an arid and remote region that in this country is almost universally considered as a desert so it's really weird seeing it as Woods, even if it has Arid climate. I suppose it's because of the Serrania de Macuira. However, the settlement of Itchiki (Uribia), the name of the location, is very far away from there and the rest of the peninsula has indubitably Sparse vegetation as can be seen in the map shared by Sulphurologist. A new location that covers only the northern tip of the peninsula could be added. Its name can be Amururu, the original name for the most important settlement in the zone. It's current name is Nazareth, but since that's too ambiguous, its colonial name can be its Wayuu equivalent Nasaree. However, changing the vegetation type of the whole location to Sparse would also be acceptable since that zone isn't very relevant.

Recent deforastion:
Several locations in the Colombian Amazon have the Wood vegetation type, but during the entirety of the game period all of them were mostly covered by jungle and only were deforested during the last few decades.

 

[marsh_otter]

Antioquia Department:

This area contains three relatively flat zones that are close to each other, but divided by natural obstacles. In yellow, the Aburrá Valley, is already it's own location and it should be changed to Plateau without any further changes. In green, the San Nicolas Valley, is divided between the current Guarzo and Cocorna locations that contain very rugged zones, but given its importance in the later half of the game's timeframe it should be given its own location with Plateau terrain. Its name could be Guarne. In red it's the Los Osos Valley (or Altiplano de Santa Rosa de Osos), since it's a little rugged maybe the Hills terrain is more fitting than Plateau, but it should be surrounded by mountains given its high elevation and the deep canyons around the Cauca river at that point, so it probably should be separated from its current location.

 

[marsh_otter]

Bodies of water:

The following large bodies of water (over 10 km in length) should be added due to their cultural, economic and symbolic value:

Lake Tota (5.54, -72.91)
Cienaga Grande de Santa Marta (10.88, -74.41)
Laguna de la Cocha (1.09, -77.14)

Lake Fuquene (5.46, -73.74)
This one is a special case since it's relatively shallow, it has been extensively drained and has lost up to 90% of its original area, but it was sacred to the Muisca people. According to Wenceslao Cabrera Ortiz (La Laguna de Fuquene. Boletín de la Sociedad Geográfica de Colombia Número 53, Volumen XV. 1957) during precolumbian times it covered most of the Ubate Valley, from Cucunuba to Chiquinquira.
By the early 20th century, its area had been reduced to roughly twice its actual size with a large overflow zone that was flooded during strong rainy seasons (E. Santo Pottes. Plano general de la Laguna de Fúquene completado sobre un plano esquemático de Julius Berger Consortium. Ministerio de Industrias y Trabajo. 1934) [I couldn't find a better digital version, sorry]

Lake Junin (Chinchayqucha) (-11.00, -76.12)
This one is in Peru, but I included it because it's too important to ignore and it's in our national anthem.

 

[marsh_otter]

The Altiplano Cundiboyacense:

In this relief map of the Altiplano Cundiboyacense there are three notorious flat zones (discounting the area that used to be part of Fuquene Lake). In green, the Bogota Savanna, a large flat area that definitively should be a represented as a Plateau. Additionally, since the Muiscas had an extensive network of canals (camellones) that were used for cultivation arround the Bogota River (Lorena Rodríguez Gallo. La construcción del paisaje agrícola prehispánico en los Andes colombianos: el caso de la Sabana de Bogotá. SPAL: Revista de prehistoria y arqueología de la Universidad de Sevilla, Nº 28, 1. 2019), its vegetation type should be Farmland. In yellow, the Sogamoso Valley, also a densely populated flat zone that could be represented as Plateau, even if it's small compared with the Bogota Savanna. In orange, the Hunza province around Tunja (Boyaca Centro). While it´s more rugged than the other two zones and can't be represented with the current locations, it's considerably flatter than its surroundings and it could be represented with a few changes.

Proposed changes and suggestions:

1. Leyva is a name of Spanish origin, therefore this province should be renamed, I propose Moniquirá as its original name. Its colonial name could be Velez since it also was an important city in the zone. If Velez is going to be used for the Chipata location, Villa de Leyva (instead of just Leyva) is fine. Also, theres no reason why it shouldn't be part of the Zaque since it contains one of the most important archeological sites of the Muisca (the Monquira Observatory in Villa de Leyva, also known as Infernito or Little Hell) and the whole area of the location is often despicted as part of the Muisca Confederation.

2. In real life Duitama and Sogamoso are really close to each other, but in the map the "Duitama" location is really far away from where it should be. I propose changing the name of the current Boiaca location to Tundama (its colonial name can be Duitama), since the name Boiaca is more fitting for a province than an specific location anyway. I also considered reducing its size, but maybe the current borders are adecuate.

3. The location currently named "Duitama" wasn't inhabited by Muiscas and shouldn't be part of the Zaque. I considered splitting it in two, to represent the Socorro and San Gil colonial locations, but it can remain as a single location since those two were closely related anyway. It should have the Guane culture (they probably should be a SoP) and its name can be Moncora (one of the most important Guane settlements, close to the current day Guane village in Barichara). I also modified a litte the southern border sticking to the east bank of the Suarez river to cover the actual location of Socorro without displacing Camacota, but that's just me being nitpicky.

4. The current Chunsa location is too big and diverse. I propose spliting off the eastern part into a new location. Its name can be either Garagoa since it was (and still is) one of the largest settlements in the region or Somondoco. It's colonial name can be Tenza. This new province should have the Mountain terrain type and the Forest vegetation type.

5. To keep the Bosa and Funza locations as Plateaus while portraying the suddent change in elevation and difficult access, I propose a new Mountain location with the name "Tequendama" (its colonial name can be "Tena"). That way the Tocaima location can remain as a hilly location while keeping the southern part of Bogota Savanna surrounded by mountains.

Other considerations: The Altiplano Cundiboyacense contains areas that are drier and have less vegetation that their surroundings. I consider that the Suamox, Tundama and Chunsa locations should be grasslands instead of woods.

The Chicaquicha location should have the Hills terrain type.

Laslty, as a Colombian the current areas feel really, really weird given the historical east-west cultural divide in this country.
Chunsa and Boiaca shouldn't be different Provinces, much less different areas. I suppose it's for balance reasons, but it fells ill-fitting that both the Cordillera Oriental is divided the way it is and that the name Chunsa is used for such a huge area. Maybe Funza, or even Bacata, is a little more fitting for the area, since the toponym Bogotá was often used for most of the Cordillera Oriental during colonial times.

 

[marsh_otter]

Additional notes:
Nariño is a Spanish surname so the Nariño location should be renamed. It's a somewhat awkward location since its current name is Francisco Pizarro and I couldn't find much information about the zone, but it could be renamed to Curay after the Bocas de Curay village.
Micay should be isolated from Caloto. The mountains that separate them are too high and rugged, and there isn't a road or waterway that connects both locations.
Mocoa was known as the door to the Amazon, so it doesn't make sense that the only way to get to it is from the Amazon. It should be connected to the Timaná location, since that was the only viable way to access it back then. On the other hand, Florencia is a recent city (it was founded during the 20th century) because getting there from the Magdalena Valley was considerably harder, so the wasteland should separate the Andaki location from Timaná.
The Sinçel location has an awkward name. I know that that's how early conquistadors transliterated it, but the letter ç isn't currently in use in the language and it looks even more out of place when the accents from every other location are being omitted. Leaving it as Sincel is fine.

 

[Yonael]

The Moxo people had large urban centers, earthen pyramids, farming, inter-city canal networks, and defensive earthworks.

They should be a country instead of a SoP I think.

 

[nyetflix2]

A few papers that might help with designing the borders of the Chimu polity:

• Chimu Empire - Joanne Pillsbury
• Eating Empire in the Jequetepeque: A Local View of Chimú Expansion on the North Coast of Peru
• Chimu Statecraft in the Provinces - Carol Macke

Based on these, it seems that the Chimu had already conquered the Farfan location. Manchan (the Casma valley) would be conquered around 1350. Eventually they would expand the southern frontier to Carabayllo. I don't understand the historical basis for the Paramonga exclave. I think Paramonga would be founded by the Chimu soon, but not yet.

I do hope there is some minimal content to help the Chimu expand as they did historically, just like Cusco. Doesn't have to be much, but I don't want to see them remain a fragmented statelet when historically speaking their rise was already in the works.

By the way, I think it should be renamed to Chimor. Chimu is the adjective.

And on a related subject, I'd prefer any of the terms Mochica, Muchik, Lambayeque or even Sican over Xllang, which seems to mean sun. How did you choose that name?

 

[Niptium]

Location : Araya

Modification to Resource : Salt

History : Punta de Araya was a well-known natural site for high quality salt. To the ire of the Spaniards who held the Venezuelan coast, the Dutch would swoop in and shovel salt away in their ship in the 17th Century.

Even today, Araya is producing sea salt in great quantity.

Source :

1. Wikipedia on Punta de Araya : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Araya_Peninsula
2. National Gallery of Art : https://www.nga.gov/stories/deadly-business-dutch-quest-salt.html

 

[nyetflix2]

The "Tumaco" culture of southwest Colombia should probably be considered Barbacoan-speaking, as there are records of old Barbacoan varieties in that area including one called Tumaco. There are many others that were spoken in the lowlands of the Narino department.

Furthermore, I don't understand why it was assigned Cariban affiliation in the first place? As I believe I mentioned before, the same goes for the Chachapoya culture of Peru, which was most likely related to the Culle language.

Also, it looks like Andaqui might be better grouped with Paez/Pijao or even the Barbacoan languages. The Chibchan connection is an older classification from 1924 which was not fully accepted, and the Chibchan family has often been exaggerated based on little evidence (for example, including Purepecha, Cuitlatec, Lenca, Misumalpan, Paez, Barbacoan and many more)

 

[JimmyJoeSanchez]

Ah! This has changed, and become a bit more complex. We may think of giving an update on this, in the near future.

Will there be a "reform religion" mechanic like in EU4? Andean religion can be very rich and could allow for a lot of fun interactions with other religions, way beyond the first contact. In EU4 the Inti religion became stale after reforming it, and that felt like a waste. Have you considered mid and late game events that can keep it relevant?

 

[marsh_otter]

I wasn't satisfied with some of the current provinces and areas and I think that some of the locations could have better names. I tried to make it more accurate while making as little changes as possible:

Renamed Locations:
The Sinu province has a few locations with terrible names that are redundant and inconsistent. Namely: Sinu, Upper Sinu and Zenues. Since the Nechi province has several misplaced locations, I renamed a some locations and shuffled around some others.

Sinu -> Chima. After the Chimá municipality in Cordoba. It was founded in 1777, but it has been around since the 16th century as an encomienda and it has a native name. The colonial name of this location can be Lorica.
Upper Sinu -> Finzenu. One of the three quasi-mythical divisions of the territory of the Sinu people. Similiar to the Zipa and Zaque system. The Finzenu zone was around the Sinu river. Colonial name: Monteria.
Zenues -> Betanci. After the Cienaga Betancí, an important Finzenu site close to Tierralta.
Mayaba -> Panzenu. The Panzenu terrritory was located around the San Jorge River. Colonial/Alternative name: Ayapel.
Noris -> Nori. It looks better in singular and its closer to the name of the current day Anori municipality. I extended this location a little to the South to include it. Colonial name: Caceres.
Yolombo -> Mayaba. The cacique Mayaba is associated with the mining city of Zaragoza. Since this location is closer to it than to Yolombo, Mayaba is a more fitting name.
Pantagoras -> Yolombo. The pantagora people are more often associated with the current day Tolima and Caldas departments. Since this location is closer to the actual location of Yolombo. I consider it a more fitting name for it.

Ondaimas -> Ondaima. The singular form fits better with the surrounding locations.
Zarate -> Malibu. Zárate is a Spanish surname. Malibu works because the Cienaga Malibu is in this location. Colonial name: Plato
Kamash -> Camach. This transliteration is more consistent with the naming style of the rest of the locations.
Tamalameque -> Sompachai. Tamalameque is further to the east. Sompachai was the native form of Sompayón, the old name of El Banco.
Curumanao -> Tamalameque. Tamalameque was more relevant during the colonial period and this location is closer to it.
Metica -> Guayuriba. After the Guayuriba river close to Puerto Lopez. Metica uses a Spanish diminutive so Guayuriba is a more appropiate name.
Kukuta -> Cucuta. This transliteration is more familiar and consistent with the naming style of the rest of the locations.
Mompoj -> Mompox. This transliteration is more familiar and consistent with the naming style of the rest of the locations.
Sinçel ->Sincel. For consistency's sake.
Bosa -> Chia. Bosa was a relatively large settlement, but in Chia was located the Moon Temple so I consider it more important. In any case its colonial name should be Santafe (de Bogota) if it isn't already and Funza should remain as a separate location.

Nariño -> Curay (After the Boca the Curay village). Satinga is another posible name, but it would require changing the current borders of the location a little.
Boiaca -> Tundama. Colonial name: Duitama.
Duitama -> Moncora. After the Guane settlement of Móncora. Colonial name: Socorro, or San Gil. Extended it a little to the south to cover the current Socorro and Charalá municipalities.
Sonso ? Anchicaya. I'm not sure of what's the origin of the Sonso name for this location, but it seems to refer to the Sonso Lake close to Buga. Maybe the name of the Anchicayá river is more fitting for Buenaventura.
Yopo -> Pore. Yopal is a very recent city (It was founded in the 20th century). Pore, has been around since the 17th century and it's very prominent in old maps.


Proposed locations:
1. Opon (or Carare). After the Opón river. Covering the western half of the current Chipata and Camacota locations in the Magdalena river Valley. This flat location has considerably different conditions and was inhabited by different people than the mountainous locations to the west of it. Colonial name: Cimitarra
2. Guamoco. The original Yolombo location (that I renamed as Mayaba) extended too much to the east. I split off the southern part of the San Lucas range and the surrounding area for better granularity. Colonial name: Remedios
3. Natagaima. Between the cities of Flandes and Natagaima in the Toilima department there's a large plain that can't be properly represented with the current locations. Natagaima is a fitting name for it since it's a large city in that zone that has a name consistent with the nearby locations.
4. Aipe (alternatively Doche). The flat and comparatively dry plains between Natagaima and Neiva, incluiding the Tatacoa desert. It should have Sparte or Grassland type vegetation. Aipe is a more recognizable name, with an uncertain etymology but probably of native origin, but it's a relatively late settlement. The Doche people on the other hand, were one of the original inhabitants of the zone and have a small settlement in the Villavieja municipality with a minor archeological site, but the name is more obscure.

Locations that I proposed in earlier posts:
Guarne: A plateau location in the San Nicolas Valley with parts of the current Guarzo and Cocorna locations. If the Rionegro name is already in use, Marinilla is a good alternative since both cities competed with each other (and with Medellin) during the late colonial/early republican period.
Tequendama (or Anapoima): A mountain location split off from the eastern half of the current Tocaima location. Covering the current Vianí, Anolaima, La Mesa, El Colegio, Tena, Anapoima and Viotá municipalities. Tena is a posible colonial name.
Garagoa (or Somondoco): A mountain location in the eastern half of the current Chunsa location. Covering the current Neira, Lengupá and Oriente provinces of the Boyacá department. Colonial name: Tenza.

Modified locations:
Macaregua and Tora: I extended the Tora location to the north, covering the current Puerto Wilches and Sabana de Torres municipalities, and Macaregua to the south covering the current Mesa de Los Santos zone to keep Tora completely flat and Macaregua completely mountainous. The Macaregua and Moncora locations could be part of a Guane SoP, or at least have the Guane culture.
Coyaima and Yaporox: I exdended them a little to the south to cover the mountainous areas around the Aipe location.
Vijes: I extended it to the south covering the current La Cumbre, Restrepo and Dagua municipalities to prevent a direct passage from Buenaventura to Cali without having to cross a mountain location.
Gorrones: I extended it a little to the south to prevent direct access from Vijes to the Otun location.
Micay - Caloto: I added a wasteland to prevent direct access between these two provinces.
Timana - Mocoa: I removed the wasteland to allow direct access between these two provinces.
Timana - Andaki: I added a wasteland to prevent direct access between these two provinces.
Hatunllacta ? Inga (Sibundoy): Reaching Mocoa from Pasto or vice versa was (and still kinda is) borderline suicidal due to the sudden change in altitude and the ruggedness of the terrain, but it was done several times since the 16th century when Hernán Pérez de Quesada did it so maybe the wasteland between these two provinces could be removed.
Bosa (Chia) - Caqueza: I like that Paramo Cruz Verde is represented as a wasteland, however, there should be direct access between the Bosa (Chia) and Caqueza locations since there always have been roads connecting both of them.
Babichas - Cubara: The wasteland that separates these provinces could be removed since the easiest way to access Cubará from the mountains seems to be through Pamplona.
Cucuta: I changed its shape, extending the Tachira location. To allow direct access between both of them and fit better the current border between Colombia and Venezuela.
Süchiimma: I changed its shape, extending the Marakaaya location to cover a larger part of the Gulf of Venezuela.

 

[marsh_otter]

Areas:

For the areas names I kept Sinu, adding the Guiajira Peninsula to better fit the current borders.
For the west of the country I chose Cauca instead of Caly, because being the name of a river is better for a large area, and while Cauca has a disputed etymology, it's not a Spanish word and it has a clear meaning. Due to historical, geographical and cultural reasons I included the locations in the current Nariño, Cauca, Valle del Cauca, Risaralda, Caldas, Quindio and Antioquia departments.
For the Eastern Plains area I chose Casanari, the native form of Casanare, since the region was occasionally known as the "Casanare Plains" and "Llanos de San Martin" is too Spanish and Eastern Plains too generic.
Picking a name for the "Cordillera Oriental" area was difficult. I chose Bacata because it has the advantage of not being used as the name of an specific location and it's more familitar than something like Muykyta. Since this area covers most of the Upper and Middle Magdalena Valleys, Magdalena could work, except it is a very obviously Spanish name. Maybe Yuma, ostensibly the Muisca name for it could work.