Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

[Pavía]

How will the Ottomans be elevated from beylik to empire and will there full name change with the transition? For example; will they go from "Ottoman Beylik" to "Sublime Ottoman State".

[REDACTED]

 

[Pavía]

If Yuan or another Mongolic state restablishes the full Mongol Empire, "The Furious Silk Road"

What a lovely day that would be!

 

[Pavía]

Do you already have a map mode for culture groups visualisation (greek and pontic together, etc) ? Which cultures will Turkish and Turcoman be grouped with ?

It's a bit early to talk about that, unfortunately.

 

[Pavía]

Will the Genoese city of Pera/Galata be represented in some way?

I think that both it's commercial value as an outpost of the Genoese/European trade network, as it's strategic value as a controller of the straits make it justified to add it as a location.

"Already by the seventh decade of the fourteenth century Constantinople and its immediate neighborhood had formed only a small island surrounded by territories under Ottoman rule, with its communications by sea and its seaborne trade under the control of the Italian maritime states. Economically too the Ottoman capitals of Brusa and Adrianople had begun to overshadow the former imperial center. The old silk route from Persia via Trebizond to Constantinople had, by the end of the fourteenth century, been diverted to Brusa, which had then become the principal trading-center in Oriental products for the Genoese merchants of Galata, and toward which both the silk caravans from Persia and the spice caravans from Syria now converged. In short, Constantinople was the dead center of a dead empire, which George Scholarius described before its fall as "a city of ruins, poor, and largely uninhabited.' " – Halil İnalcık in
"The Policy of Mehmed II toward the Greek Population of Istanbul and the Byzantine Buildings of the City" 231.

"The details of the first Ottoman-Genoese cooperation on the Straits, which was to maintain its strategic importance for a century, ware worth recapitulating here. The negociations with the Genoese ambassadors, two Peran citizens, Filippo Delomede and Bonifazio Sauli, sent by the admiral of the Genoese fleet, ended with a formal treaty of alliance between Sultan Orkhan and the Genoese. The Genoese promised to pay tribute, which in the eyes of the Ottomans, put Pera under Ottoman protection. During the war, in fact, the Ottomans supplied the Genoese with one thousand archers, who were stationed at Pera oand on the Genoese ships. These forces defended Pera in the summer of 1351, when the city was besieged by joint Venetian-Byzantine forces. Orkhan himself, with his army, met Doria on the southern shores of the Bosporus at Chalcedon. Following the crucial battle of the Bosporus (February 1352) between the Genoese armada and the allied fleet of Venice and Aragon, the Genoese cited with praise the aid given to them by Orkhan. [...] It should be emphasized that it was not a coincidence that the Ottomans developed their foothold on European soil shortly after the battle of the Bosporus in 1352. [...] As for the Genoese they secured Ottoman protection for Pera against the Byzantines and the Venetians, as well as commercial privileges in the expanding Ottoman territoies. The close ties between Pera and Bursa, the Ottoman capital, were to enhance the prosperity of both cities." – Halil İnalcık in "The Question of the closing of The Black Sea under The Ottomans" 419-420.

Both quotes are from Halil İnalcıks oevre, which although it is pretty old scholarship, it holds up pretty well.

Also, will the Genoese colonies have a lot of autonomy? When I did research on this topic it seemed to be scholarly consensus that the citizens of the colonies acted independently, often to the detriment of the mother city. (Think the incitement of the Ottomans from Francesco Draperio, a (former) Peran citizen, against Chios, a Genoese colony, in 1455).

Yes to the first question, no the second.

 

[Pavía]

How much of Russia are we getting next week? Just the principalities, up to the Ural, or also including Siberia?

The core of the Russian lands up to the Urals, not the lands of the later Russian Empire.

 

[Pavía]

Map of Russia next week. Does this mean that we will see a map of the Golden Horde?

No, those are the Steppes.

 

[Pavía]

Are Saruhanids Aydinids etc. vassals of Germiyan? And similarly are the beyliks to the north of Eretna vassals as well?

Just checked, and no, they just have close colors, so we'll review that.

 

[Pavía]

Please show the Orthodox Patriarchates IOs !!!!

One day...

 

[Pavía]

because of Rum Sultanate, haha

The Sultanate of Rûm is different from the Roman Empire, and restoring it will be doable for the Turkish Beyliks.

 

[Pavía]

Will Islam likewise have various IO's representing different schools of jurisprudence (Hanafi, Shafi, etc.) and especially more importantly in the case of Anatolia, Sufi Orders/Tariqa's like the Bektashi's? Or will these (again with emphasis on groups like the Bektashi's) be represented in a different way?

Secondly, will at a later point the Alevi's pop up in Anatolia?

There will be Muslim schools of jurisprudence, and we also want to portray Sufism, and most likely Alevism, yes.

 

[Pavía]

I have a question on that point: in CK2/3, if you play as the Komnenoi in Trebizond after 1204, the most likely way for you to restore your imperial position is to press a claim on the Byzantine title. In other words, there is a political continuity in the Byzantine Empire. Meanwhile, in EU4, playing Trebizond requires you to conquer the Byzantine Empire and re-establish it. From a game mechanics point of view, there is no political continuity.

In this game, which is the more standard path for Komnenoi player? I want to both restore their position while also maintaining political continuity.

Probably just gonna play as Byzantium and try to get the Komnenoi on the throne from the inside.

I think that both paths will be possible.

 

[Pavía]

Byzantium has over 1.5 times the population of the Ottomans, is anything stopping every Byzantine player from stomping the Ottomans a game start?

Check what happened to Byzantium a few years after 1337.

 

[Pavía]

I'm not an expert in theology, but doesn't the term "Myaphisite" refers to different Christian beliefs that say that Jesus has 2 distinct natures(in contrast to the other Christian beliefs like Orthodoxss and Catholics), which is true for both the Armenian apostolic and Coptic churches but that's where their similarities pretty much end, like you said they have different patriarchates just like Nestorians( which I think they are also Miyaphisite) and Orthodoxes yet of course you rapresented them differently for obvious reasons.

So I don't think every Eastern Christian patriarchy should be rapresented as a different religion in game and I like the Patriarchates concept, but these 2 "branches" are separated geographically and had different relations and history with other religions to make them 2 separate religions in my opinion.

Technically, yes, but we need some broad categories to group religions: Shiism, Hinduism, or Buddhism are also very internally diverse, and we also consider them religions. How do we portray those internal differences, compared to, let's say, Catholicism or Sunnism, which are internally more homogeneous? Through their mechanics. And those of Myaphisitism are unique, even if they share common features with other Christian religions (the Patriarchates with Eastern Orthodoxy, or having their own set of Holy Sites). But we'll talk more in-depth in the future when the moment comes.

 

[Pavía]

I have a question, maybe it's already been asked, and it's not strictly related to Anatolia, but anyway: will everything that exists in EUIV be present in this game? I mean long and extraordinarily detailed mission trees, unique ideas, special troops, particular mechanics related to the various types of government... This is one of my biggest concerns, I wouldn't want many things to be cut and then inserted as paid DLC, as has already happened in CK3, where many features of CK2 are missing.
Small, not entirely innocent curiosity.

There will be lots of content in Project Caesar. And I can't say more, yet.

 

[Pavía]

I don't think the Ahi Brotherhood in Ankara should be ruled by the Mengüjek dynasty when their beylik got destroyed by the Ilkhanate in 1277.

It's a dynasty assigned randomly from a dynasty pool at the game start, as we don't really know who could be considered their ruler in 1337.

 

[Pavía]

Are there Romanoite Jews (for example in Bursa) and Karaites in Constantinople?

We have 'Romanyoti' Jews implemented, yes, while we still have to define and implement the Middle Eastern Jews.

 

[Pavía]

Given the scarcity of scholarship in English and the challenges of working with primary sources for this period, your work is impressive!

However, as a historian working in a closely related field, I am intrigued by some of the choices you made.

1) Why did you choose to make the Alaiye beylik independent from the Karamanids? Literary sources (such as al-Umari) and material evidence (epigraphy, numismatics) contradict such a decision (at least until the early 15th century). The beyliks were fairly loose entities but in this case, why favor the Alaiye branch over others, like Ermenek?

2) How are you planning to model the Iranian and Mongol populations? While Turkish immigration during the Mongol invasions is well-documented, there was also significant Iranian immigration. Michael Meinecke and Carole Hillenbrand have covered this topic extensively. Additionally, sizable Mongol communities existed in areas like Sivas (see Juergen Paul) and the Bulgar Mountains.

3) The existence of the Akhi Republic is a hotly debated topic. Akhi brotherhoods and lodges were widely dispersed across Seljuk Anatolia and the post-Seljuk period. It seems peculiar to designate them as an independent “dynasty” solely in Ankara. Why not name it “Ankara” instead, with a Republican government? Also, why did you choose the Mengucek dynasty for this region?

4) Simple curiosity, why did you select certain Seljuk remnants, such as the Kubadids, while excluding others (e.g., Arzen)?

That’s all for now. Thanks for your work.

I'm bookmarking the post to reply more consistently in a few days, as I prefer to check in detail with the content designers who worked in the region, and they'll be on vacation next week (there's a juicy bank holiday in Spain). But as a start, about number 3, it's an interesting suggestion; and, as I just answered in another post, the ruler (and his dynasty) is generated randomly, as we don't really know who could be.

 

[Pavía]

I see a problem in Eretnids dynasty name. It should be “Eretnaoğulları” not “Eretnağulları”. And whats with that “-ları”? It’s plural suffix in Turkish. Shouldn’t it be like “Karamanoğlu” since we refer the surname of the ruler. Their surnames wasn’t plural.

I think that this was noticed this week, and changed in one of WIP branches, but it has not yet been implemented. I'll double-check, in any case.

 

[SaintDaveUK]

I see a problem in Eretnids dynasty name. It should be “Eretnaoğulları” not “Eretnağulları”. And whats with that “-ları”? It’s plural suffix in Turkish. Shouldn’t it be like “Karamanoğlu” since we refer the surname of the ruler. Their surnames wasn’t plural.

I'm curious, perhaps a native Turkish speaker can help me out, if we can have the same word represented differently in both surnames and dynasty names would it be any better? E.g. The name as "Dave Karamanoğlu", belonging to the "Karamanoğulları Dynasty"?

 

[SaintDaveUK]

View attachment 1151388

Thank you for another batch of amazing maps and hard work on this game, as always!
But I do have one critical remark. It's probably already been discussed, but this image again shows it very clearly: the color palette seems inappropriate for this type of game. It doesn't look serious, adult. There's too much pink and purple, and the colors in general are too bright, carnival-like, like some sort of children online game. But above all, it doesn't feel historical! They don't give the impression of a historical map, and therefore go against the basic pillars of the design. Milder colours in more natural shades would have been more appropriate. Or is it important to have this particular look for some reason? I understand the desire for clear distinctiveness, but is it necessary to choose these particular colours?

This new provinces mapmode is our youngest mapmode and somewhat hot code. It is scheduled for a bit of artist love.