Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

[Pavía]

I don't know if this is the place but can you give us some information about the migration patterns into and from anatolia? I think this is an important point because as far as I know, one of the important advantages the Ottomans had over the other beyliks were that they were a frontier beylik. This enabled them to gather religiously and sometimes tribally motivated extra pops (Ghazi warriors) throughout anatolia for their armies. This was especially important for the 14th century as the Mongol invasions and the soon to come Timur would plunge significant populations in iran and mesopotamia to migration into anatolia. Even the tribe that founded the Ottomans were such a tribe fleeing the Mongol invasions and was relocated to the frontier by the then still alive Seljuk sultanate. To the best of my knowledge this influx of population was one of the main means and also one of the main motivations of westward expansion of the Ottomans. It also partly accounts for the quick expansion of Ottoman power and Turkish population into Rumelia.

I don't know if you would/could implement such an emergent and complex migration dynamic over a large distance but such a system would make the rise of the Ottomans against both their beylik rivals and the Byzantines more realistic and simulative rather than tied to certain gamey Otto-specific bonuses or events.

Ghazi warriors will be portrayed in a certain way.

 

[Pavía]

As usual, here are my comments on topography and climate:

Climate
- Oceanic seems underrepresented along the Northern coast and Western hills.
- Ahtopol (Byz) should also be oceanic.
- Arctic zones are designated as impassable, but for consistency's sake it would be nice to mark them as such.

Tinto's design	Köppen 1901-1930 reclassified to Tinto's design
View attachment 1151372	View attachment 1151373

Topography
Eastern Anatolia

• I LOVE the way you represented the Cilician gates! But please extend the same love to the Amanian gate
  • Xarani needs to be largely impassable (northeastern half)
  • Anavarza and Kapan should have to maneuver through Ulnia
  • Ulnia should be hills instead of Mountains
• Centrally, I'd switch some province terrains around:
  • Siran -> mountains
  • Bayburt -> plateau
  • Zara+Hafik+Sivas -> plateau
  • border of Divrigi/Afin/Arapgir needs rework to include the mountain massif
  • Kemah -> mountains
  • Tercan -> hills

View attachment 1151390View attachment 1151405 View attachment 1151394View attachment 1151393View attachment 1151409View attachment 1151396View attachment 1151395
Western Anatolia

• The border between Beyschir - Manavgat seems to be rather impassable in real life, while it's a plateau-flatlands transition in game.
• The 2 mountain ranges in the Aydin Province are neglected. Perhaps an east-west impassable could emulate the fact that armies need to go around them?
• - Akcakoca (North) should be hills instead of flatlands
  - Inegol-Bursa-Domanic needs an impassable range on their borders
  - Northern Edremit needs an impassable in the northernmost part

Linear DEM (0-3500 m)	Tinto's design	Reclassified terrain based on ruggedness index
View attachment 1151369	View attachment 1151370	View attachment 1151371

Great post, as usual, thank you very much!

 

[Pavía]

Hey Pavia, what is your favorite nation to play as so far...
And thanks for all the feedback you give us.

I think that I've mentioned in another post, I think that the countries that I've playtested the most are Genoa and Hungary, which are quite different. But recently we've put some work into Anatolia, and given the feedback tweaks that we'll implement in a few weeks, I think that I'll test the Ottomans more thoroughly.

 

[Pavía]

Solid argument, but have you considered the fact that I, the player, am just built different?

Yes. That's why you, as a player, will have some curve balls to overcome. And you may do differently as the Byzantines did in history because, well, it's a game.

 

[Pavía]

Can you tell us the future timeline of regions shown beyond next week?

No, I'm sorry.

 

[Pavía]

If Turkoman tribal pops promote to peasants or higher, do they automatically culture flip to Turkish?

No, but they may be assimilated into that culture.

 

[Pavía]

All of beyliks of Canik except Hadzhimirogullary were tributaries of Eretnid Sultanate.

I was just talking about the Germinayids; I'd have to check about the Eretnids (although I'm far from my PC right now).

 

[Pavía]

Is it possible, given the relative size of the locations, that the area of Galata within Constantinople, which was a colony of Genoa at game start, be included due to its strategic importance as a trade colony? Pic related is the Galata Citadel built by the Genoese, which for a long time was the tallest structure in the city. It wasn't built until 1348, about a decade after the game start, but a mission or event could be given to build a fort/castle in the location.
View attachment 1151433

No, Galata was tiny, in our game terms. But it will be portrayed in a certain, different way.

 

[Pavía]

Once we finish with feedback for all of Europe, will we get a high resolution map of Europe as a reward?

That might be a good idea, yes.

 

[Pavía]

Agree with this. Romaioi and Greek were two different terms to identify different people and they seemed to based around the viewers religion in the 13th to 15th centuries. For example, a Catholic Greek would be more likely to identify as "Elliniki" versus "Romaioi". For the Italians occupying the Islands they consistantly refered to the people as "Graecus", which indeed was enormusly insulting to the people who still considered themselves Romaioi.

@Pavía Is there somewhere in the culture system to protray this divergence in cultural identity? I think there is a case to be made for a Romaioi culture to "exist" in 1337 to protray the Greek pops that still identify themselves as Roman, and then if they land under Catholic rule and that rule is maintained long enough or around the 1750s the "Greek" pops can show up to simulate the ethno-genesis of Modern Greek and the Modern Greek state. If primary tags for cultures is a thing, it could as help the BYZ/ERE tag by having it be the primary culture of Romaioi, making it retain cores; but once "Greek" shows the cores of the ERE vanish.

Nope. Never. At the Council of Florence in 1434 and Manuel II's diplomatic tour the leader of the ERE was identified as "Rex Graecorum" or "Imperator Graecorum". Likewise, later Greek Renaissance writers would somtimes have an odd time on the title of their current/former leaders using "Basileus Ellados (King/Emperor of the Greeks) with only anti-Union Greek Renaissance writers insisting on "Basileus Rhomanioi".

There might be a few, very specific cases of this; but usually we prefer to portray them as 'Greek Orthodox' and 'Greek Catholic', instead of having more specific categories, and that's more flexible gameplay-wise.

 

[Pavía]

Will "no cb Ottomans" be the Byzantine meta? If no, pls make it so.

We do not work with a meta in mind, but with a 'let's make a fun game, and let the players make their own decisions'.

 

[Pavía]

It would be Cool if in case the other Turkish Beyliks win the war for Anatolia they adopt the Empire title and get the “Ottoman” missions and mechanics. Like if Candar won the Anatolian wars then they would become the Candari Empire and get all the missions and events that would ever been given to the Ottomans

We want to give other Turkish Beyliks similar possibilities to those of the Ottomans if they become the 'regional winner', indeed.

 

[Pavía]

How will the Coastal Beyliks manage their Army and Manpower if most of their Population is Greek Orthodox rather than Turkish Muslims?

With an interesting starting handicap.

 

[Pavía]

Will there be a mechanic about turkify the anatolia, like in real life migrating turks in anatolia and balkans. For instance "İskan Politikası", which is mean replacement policy for turks in newly conquered lands and giving them arable lands for farming and getting them into timar system. If you include the game this kind of system for ottoman this would be perfect for experience. And in historical perspective, most of the cities in western anatolia like Manisa, Bursa and İzmir, turn into nearly muslim majority cities in 50 years apart start date of project caesars, and ottomans and beyliks working so hard for this assimilation procces, most of these cities has enormous mosques which built in 1300s when they were newly conquered in 50 years.

Check the last Tinto Talks.

 

[Pavía]

Leo IV Hethumian/Lampron in Cicilia? there's a lot going on around that region at this time regarding Occitaine houses stepping up to rule crusader states like the lusignans taking over, so that might be a bit of awkward start if they sway diplomatic favor over France and Castile like they tried to do historically for any Ottoman run (if they are not getting drop-kicked by Venice)

Yes!

 

[Pavía]

Some suggestions as to some Kurdish principalities to the east, at this time likely vassals to the Sutayids:

View attachment 1151454
Though this is describing the political situation in 1390, it is likely that at least when it comes to this small detail, it had no changed much since 1337 (the Sutayids had diminished by then, but no power had really taken their place).

For context, a map of the situation in 1390, which is accurate regarding the more sedentary groups but inaccurate in terms of the holdings of the Aq Qoyunlu and the locations of the Qara Qoyunlu, Dulkadir, and Döger:

View attachment 1151460
I am curious though... how do you plan on representing the Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu, given that they shouldn't hold any land on the map in 1337 (though still exist)?

I can only say for the moment that we have plans for the White and Black Sheep to appear.

 

[Pavía]

@Pavía Are u going to make mechanic for Constantinopole for it to be the hardest city possible to conquer and possibility for the attackers to give up bcz of how strong Theodosian Walls were?

We have the Theodosian Walls.

 

[Pavía]

I wonder how nations in the Maghreb region are going to "perform" without an ottoman alliance while having the iberian kingdoms as major threat. Since the ottomans do not start as powerful as usual, even with allying the Ottomans I doubt that the ottomans can be a helpful hand for the Maghrebians! I really wonder!

The Marinids are a power to be reckoned on their own in 1337.

 

[Pavía]

May we know why is there Turkish minority in Izmit if Nikomedia was conquered the same year as the game starts? @Pavía

Each location also takes into account its rural hinterland population-wise. In any case, we'll double-check.

 

[Pavía]

Glad to see Anatolia is getting so much detail! I hope when the time comes, the Balkans get the same treatment.

It also has a lot of detail. Actually, we don't have any 'preferred regions'; you may see in the future the level of detail that we've gone through in all of them.