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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
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The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
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Topography.png

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Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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Excellent work. There are only a number of additions
Thank you! Up to this point, my work consisted checking the former Vladimir-Suzdal territory, including toponymes and the boundaries of locations according to historical sources and reconstructed maps, I don’t I take full responsibility out of the highlighted area at this moment

1. Yes, that's how I see it, I hope the capabilities of IO will make it possible to make an exciting game out of it

2. Tula is not included in the administrative boundaries of the Golden Horde and is presented as a vassal. Sources write that "[Тулу] баскаки ведали" (~Tula was managed by Baskaks)”, where the word “ведали” ( this word has a very wide meaning, from simple knowledge of something to undivided possession of something) can be interpreted very differently, and historians do not agree on whether it was political or economic control.
In general, I believe that at the initial stage of the game there should be as many vassals as possible, so that at first the game would be more like CK3

3. Yes, I agree with you, the Chuvash are rather descendants of the Volga Bulgars

4. The border of Lithuania is the almost same as in DD, I changed the borders of Vitebsk a little, but in general, this could not have been done. And in general, this applies to another DD, so I just don’t mind the devs’ opinion

5. I agree, that was my mistake

6. Yes, I considered the areas outside the former Vladimir-Suzdal in the most general, and I don't work on Novgorod, except for its borders with Rostov, Beloozero, etc.
 
Chuvash people lived on the other side of the river. On what info have you based your placement of them?

Why Nizhnii Novgorod is a vassal of Golden Horde?

Also, I think there is no definite proof that Bolgar ulus was autonomous and not regular administrative division.
I outlined my area of interest in the original post and repeated this graphically, highlighting the area of interest. everything that is in the twilight is rather some general ideas and ideas that I gleaned in the process of work. They are not as accurate and need some work, otherwise I wouldn't put them in the shadow. I studied information about the lands outside the highlighted area, but I think it would be such a huge job that it would hardly be possible for one person to do it well. The map of Vladimir-Suzdal alone took me several weeks, including collecting material and the first few iterations.

1. The first thing I would like to say, as I wrote above, is yes, the Nizhny Novgorod principality, apparently, was a direct vassal of Moscow in 1337, this is my mistake, thank you for pointing this out. If you have any other comments about the territory of Vladimir-Suzdal, I will be glad to discuss them.

2. Yes, I made a mistake in indicating the Chuvash on the map (who are most likely descendants of the Volga Bulgars and whose ethnogenesis had not yet taken place at the start of the game), but this was done while working on the borders of N. Novgorod. I just needed to temporarily fill the void (since, without a doubt, at the beginning of the 14th century N. Novgorod was a border fortress and there could still be no talk of such huge possessions in the east)

3. I still haven’t found a clear answer; some historians believe that until the 2nd half of the 14th century the Bulgar ulus was quite autonomous, while others claim that Bulgaria had no autonomy at all. But in any case, I consider it an exaggeration to say that all uluses were equal, as if the Golden Horde were a symmetrical federation or a unitary state. Autonomy may not have been the desire of the khans but a consequence of poor governance.
I just outlined this as an idea, perhaps the starting date is Bulgaria’s last chance for revival before the coming complete devastation and an interesting gaming challenge. In any case, this is more of a slight speculation than a concrete proposal

Anyway, I will be glad to any of your additions that will make this map better and more reliable
 
Excellent work. There are only a number of additions
1. Vladimir should be in the Union conditionally. And somehow mechanically pass to the one who has the title of the Grand Duke of Vladimir.
It's like Paris for France)

2. Tula and Yelets are not in the Tatar possessions. It's just that the output from this region went to the income of the wife of the Great Khan directly, without an intermediary in the person of the Grand Duke of Vladimir.
Yelets had its own principality before Tamerlane. Perhaps Yelets should be included in Novosil-Odoev - one dynasty.
and Tula should be given to Ryazan.

3. The northern bank of the Volga in the Nizhny Novgorod region - not the Chuvash, but the Mari - the same as in Vetluga and Sharanga.
Also, the Chuvash on the northern bank of the Volga should be made vassals of the Horde and not its ulus.
There were not a large number of Tatars there, as on the southern bank in Narovchat.

4. Lithuania in 1337 had not yet captured the territory below Smolensk to border Chernigov region.

5. In 1337 Nizhny Novgorod was in Moscow's possession.

6. Did you specifically not consider Karelia?
2. Baskaks did not mean the loss of power of local rulers. In Kiev region before the conquest by Lithuania there were both Baskaks and a local prince Fyodor.

4. On the maps of Temushev from the Great Historical Atlas of Belarus - Lithuania in 1337 does not own the part of Belarus bordering Chernigov region. And it will capture it only in the 30-50s.
 
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Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.
shouldnt Torzhok and Karachev also have Rurikovich dynasty?
 
How are decided the trade region ? For example, if playing historically, I would probably like to set a pomor (future Arkhangelsk) tradezone to trade with Norway and the Khantys. How can I be sure that it's worth it, and not gonna be competiting with Novgorod.

You explained in a previous TT the new trade function. However, I seem to understand that there is no real "traderoute", either predefined or not.
Will it still be important to build a trade empire on a "continuous trade route" (ie the Silk Road or the indian ocean trade) ? Or it's not necessarily a bonus anymore ?
 
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Seems to be the closest to the 'Russian' topic..

During my 20 years in HoI and EU, I have never (!) seen there true vanilla logistical map of the Caucasus. 'facepalm'
Will EU5 get the glory to have the first true Caucasus map, or this endless shame with Caucasus logistic will continue?

God created this Earth! And God created special passageway in the center of the Caucasian ridge, specifically so that people on both sides of the Caucasus mountains could conveniently kill each other for the centuries millennias!

When the PDX destroy this passageway on their maps, it is awful sacrilege and resistance to the will of God!
Put this time the Darial Gorge on EU5 map please, where did God put it!

Save Caucasus from Paradox.jpg
 
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Hello, I'm your fan who has played 6000 hours in Europa Universalis IV and 350 hours in Crusader Kings III. I am from Krasnoyarsk, Siberia, Russia. You have shown the historical center of Russia, but you haven't shown Siberia yet.

Based on the maps from EU4, I want to make some suggestions about some regions of Siberia in advance.

First, in EU4, the province of Kan (named after the Kan River flowing into the Yenisei) becomes zaslennaya in 1619 and changes its name to Krasnoyarsk. In fact, Krasnoyarsk is founded in 1628.

Secondly, a little to the north until 1631 remains the unpopulated province of Chulym. Chulym is a town and river in Novosibirsk province, i.e. much to the west and south. But after settlement the province is called correctly - Yeniseisk. However, Yeniseisk was founded in 1619.

Third, in the game, Krasnoyarsk (the former province of Kan) refers to the state of Irkutsk. This is incorrect. Irkutsk was founded much later - in 1661. Historically, Krasnoyarsk belongs to Yenisei state, not Irkutsk. Later, in 1822, Yeniseysk Governorate appeared and Krasnoyarsk became the main city of the region.

Fourth, Turukhan should be located where Troitskiy is now in EU4. And both of these provinces should belong to Yeniseysk State, not Tomsk State.

Fifth, Novosibirsk is a new city, founded in 1893. It should not be in the game.
 

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Hello, I'm your fan who has played 6000 hours in Europa Universalis IV and 350 hours in Crusader Kings III. I am from Krasnoyarsk, Siberia, Russia. You have shown the historical center of Russia, but you haven't shown Siberia yet.

Based on the maps from EU4, I want to make some suggestions about some regions of Siberia in advance.

First, in EU4, the province of Kan (named after the Kan River flowing into the Yenisei) becomes zaslennaya in 1619 and changes its name to Krasnoyarsk. In fact, Krasnoyarsk is founded in 1628.

Secondly, a little to the north until 1631 remains the unpopulated province of Chulym. Chulym is a town and river in Novosibirsk province, i.e. much to the west and south. But after settlement the province is called correctly - Yeniseisk. However, Yeniseisk was founded in 1619.

Third, in the game, Krasnoyarsk (the former province of Kan) refers to the state of Irkutsk. This is incorrect. Irkutsk was founded much later - in 1661. Historically, Krasnoyarsk belongs to Yenisei state, not Irkutsk. Later, in 1822, Yeniseysk Governorate appeared and Krasnoyarsk became the main city of the region.

Fourth, Turukhan should be located where Troitskiy is now in EU4. And both of these provinces should belong to Yeniseysk State, not Tomsk State.

Fifth, Novosibirsk is a new city, founded in 1893. It should not be in the game.
This is not the Siberia feedback-thread, you have to wait for that one to come and repost the feedback if you want to make sure it's seen.
 
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rus2.png

Hello everyone, and this is another post about the mapI am extremely keen on reworking the map in terms of transport accessibility.

1. As you can see, there is now much more wasteland in the north, but this is more of a convention. These territories were visited by people, mainly for hunting and fishing, but did not have a permanent population - and in many ways still do not. Since these territories were covered with dense taiga, the only way to travel were rivers and lakes, and where important shipping rivers passed close by but did not connect, ships were dragged along the ground. So permanent settlements were founded exclusively on the banks of rivers, and their purpose was to protect the fur trade and valuable fish species. Do you see the bordergore where the river with many tributaries flows? This is the fur-rich region of Vaga, and do not let this scare you, because for the north this is normal. Rostov and Novgorod competed for fur trade, founded outposts in any convenient places, and the boundaries between the control zones were very conditional.The transport of other northern possessions was organized in the same way - the Belozersk Principality, the Yaroslavl Zaozerye, the possessions of Veliky Novgorod and the Vyatka Republic.

2. The Vyatka Republic controlled only the floodplain of the Vyatka and its tributaries, in particular the Moloma River, which connected the Vyatka with the Northern Dvina basin. However, unlike the Vaga, the region was more densely populated by the autochthonous population (Mari, Udmurts, etc.), so in this case, these boundaries are conditional - the tribes live behind them. The Vyatka is a transport corridor between Russia and the Urals, and the development of Siberia will be associated with this corridor.

3. But despite the importance of water transport, land routes are also known. Besides the Old Smolensk Road, which grew out of the Via Regae, there were other roads, such as the Great Vladimir Road and the Vladimir Tract, the Vologda Tract, the Kolomenskaya Road, and some others. I tried to map them as accurately as I know. Of course, this does not mean that locations not connected by roads were isolated, but communication between them was more difficult. Even the raids of the steppe nomads went along beaten paths, although the steppe was much more passable than the dense forests of Zalesye and Zavolochye.


Maps:

Grand Novgorod
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Tarusa principality
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Upper-Oka principalities
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Tver and it's neighbours
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why arent there locations in central novgorod except Rusa and Novgorod?
I relied on Temushev's maps and data as the most detailed, and in his works the Novgorod Principality is not described in great detail. This is a fairly large and at the same time homogeneous territory in terms of control, which leads to a massive amount of work that will remain "under the hood". I was more interested in examining the areas where the interests of the princes clashed and there was a struggle for valuable resourcesI would be glad if this work was supported by someoneAnd I would also be happy if the developers noticed this xD
 
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As there is a big push for more cultures here is a proposal for a split of Russian cultures

This is a map of the split of historical Russian dialects, but it is overlayed on top of the modern map.

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