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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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It's highly probable that the population of the Moscow Principality was extremely large during this period. Earlier in this thread, I provided a post with a reference to Vernadsky's work. In it, he relies on a census conducted by the Mongols in 1270. This census was used to establish the population of each principality, which in turn determined the amount of taxes each principality was obliged to pay. The population of the Moscow Principality was estimated at an average of 3,000,000 people. The developers, however, estimated the Moscow Principality's population in 1337 to be 792,000 people. I haven't found any other sources for the population during this period, apart from the Mongol census and Vernadsky's work.

So it's quite possible that Moscow's population is not just substantial, but perhaps should be even larger than currently represented :)
That previous post is very informative!

I've revisited Colin McEvedy's numbers and his totals match quite closely with the paradox numbers. The book I have doesn't go into the sources or how those were generated though.

Obviously there is a big difference. Colin McEvedy's numbers have the advantage of him having similar numbers for other parts of Europe, North Africa and the middle East, letting you compare regions rather than look at each in isolation.
 
Here is my proposal of cultures based on this map. With green, I showed how they should migrate preferably. Map for Pomor people in attachments

View attachment 1193489
Kostroman sounds weird for me is there another name for the area of Galich and Kostroma we can recall the culture?(the placement and existence of the culture is ok tho), never heard of "belozeroian" and "vytkan" why Gdov and Cheltsa Novgorodian? Merge moskovian and Vladimirian inro Zalesian, and rename Ryazanian to maybe Okan after the river Oka?
 
There was nothing in those maps as big as Moscow (Athens, Constantinople, Ismir, etc)
I am not an expert on this subject, so if you would like, you can read more about it in relevant articles. But from what I know:
First of all, as far as I remember, the locations of Constantinople and Athens are smaller, so not many settlements are included in them. Secondly, Constantinople was devastated in 1204, which is not so far from 1337. Athens was also going through a far from its best period at that moment. So, although I may be wrong, I don't find it so surprising that Moscow has a larger population than Athens, for example. Although I'm not saying that there should be 200k, probably it should be a little less.
 
Kostroman sounds weird for me is there another name for the area of Galich and Kostroma we can recall the culture?(the placement and existence of the culture is ok tho), never heard of "belozeroian" and "vytkan" why Gdov and Cheltsa Novgorodian? Merge moskovian and Vladimirian inro Zalesian, and rename Ryazanian to maybe Okan after the river Oka?
Kostroman - agree usually adjective of Kostroma is Kostromskoj maybe Kostromskovian then? It just was too many letters for me
Belozerian - same thing (Belozerskij in russian)
Vyatkan - in Russian, it is Vyatskij, and the dialect itself is usually called Vologodskij, maybe Vologodan?
Godov and Cheltsa culture - culture didn't follow national borders at that time. I believe it is better to go with researched maps
Ryazanian to Okan - definitely not. This dialect is always called Ryazanian
 
Kostromskoj maybe Kostromskovian then? It just was too many letters for me
Nvm, it can stay as Kostroman

Vyatkan - in Russian, it is Vyatskij, and the dialect itself is usually called Vologodskij, maybe Vologodan?
Very well, Vologdan is also the name of the modern dialect

Ryazanian to Okan - definitely not. This dialect is always called Ryazanian
Idk maybe I still have flashbacks from the Ryazanian culture in eu4 where there cultures are less "dialectical" xD
 
Its just a town that became important shortly prior to the start of the game. Naming culture of every principality after single town makes as little sence as calling all northern germans "Berlinians".
Merge moskovian and Vladimirian inro Zalesian

Unfortunately, this is what the majority of Russian regions are called - after some city there (usually the biggest, sometimes historic)

I think Zalesye is a bit too old for the game between the 14th and 18th centuries (it stopped being used in 1240 after the Mongol invasion as cities in this region were destroyed and have lost all importance). This region was called Moskow for the majority of the game span as the Principality of Moscow started becoming a regional power.
 
Here is my proposal of cultures based on this map. With green, I showed how they should migrate preferably. Map for Pomor people in attachments

I have not considered other cultural groups.
I believe Vepsian should be largely expanded as the colonisation of the Russian Siberia region started in the 12th century. A lot of rural locations in the Vologdan and Pomor culture regions should be Vepsian only with more developed regions with Russian culture like it is done in the Beloozero region. Beloozero and Veliky Ustyug (it was called just Ustyug until the 15th century can be some event here ) were the northernmost Russian cities at that time

View attachment 1193555
Added few changes
 
Here is my proposal of cultures based on this map. With green, I showed how they should migrate preferably. Map for Pomor people in attachments

I have not considered other cultural groups.
I believe Vepsian should be largely expanded as the colonisation of the Russian Siberia region started in the 12th century. A lot of rural locations in the Vologdan and Pomor culture regions should be Vepsian only with more developed regions with Russian culture like it is done in the Beloozero region (tried to mark them blue). Beloozero and Veliky Ustyug (it was called just Ustyug until the 15th century can be some event here ) were the northernmost Russian cities at that time

View attachment 1193592
This is way too many cultures. Other people in the thread have shared maps of the dialects that existed around this time period, which do not support this. In any case, the problem is not that "Muscovite" is a single culture, the problem is its name.
 
This is way too many cultures. Other people in the thread have shared maps of the dialects that existed around this time period, which do not support this. In any case, the problem is not that "Muscovite" is a single culture, the problem is its name.
As I have stayed before it is clearly seen that developers want to expand the number of cultures. A lot of regions received higher cultural fragmentation(Polish, Ruthenian,French). Also I was one of people who shared map of dialects that existed and I have used it as a basis. You can find it by clicking on the message I have responded to.

In another case there is no problem in calling the culture Muscovite, Moscovian or whatever based on Moscow. It has started to become the major city(also the one to have privileges from Golden Horde) in the area and it was used in game timeline to refer to this region. Russia doesn’t have a lot of unique regional names as they are formed by the cities inside them. Unfortunately you can’t use Zalesyan here as it was already out of use. I don’t see any need in trying to create a new name for people here.
 
As I have stayed before it is clearly seen that developers want to expand the number of cultures. A lot of regions received higher cultural fragmentation(Polish, Ruthenian,French). Also I was one of people who shared map of dialects that existed and I have used it as a basis. You can find it by clicking on the message I have responded to.
Rus' is already fragmented to that degree. "Another culture was split somewhere else" is NOT an argument to split this culture over here, because you're failing to evaluate how split it already is.
 
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It wasn't. This is a valid category of towns in the List of Russian towns which was compiled around 1400, give or take a few decades.
List didn’t gave names to the cities. It recorded the names of the cities. They all were named in 11th century. Quote from eng wiki:
During the Mongol invasion of Kievan Rus'(1223–1240), when the woods were gradually being cleared and new centres developed in Moscow, Tver, and elsewhere, the strategic importance of Zalesye declined.

Rus' is already fragmented to that degree. "Another culture was split somewhere else" is NOT an argument to split this culture over here, because you're failing to evaluate how split it already is.
Here I would like to quote devs
We've decided to be a bit more consistent with the regions to the west, and we have split the Polish and Ruthenian cultures into their regional variants.
So yes „Another culture was split somewhere else“ is an argument of consistency.

Do I agree with it - no
Do we have to accept it? Yes, as unfortunately nobody responded to my questions. It’s better to be split by linguistic research rather than some random straight lines. If it must be done, I proposed a solution how.

Again all I did is proposed so I don’t understand you hate towards me „failing to evaluate“. That’s developers job to make.
 
There is a location in Vukyl province named troitsko_pechorsk. Obviously this is some sort of error.

Arkhangelsk hadn't been established yet.

There are a lot of Russian toponyms up north, and at least one of them is outside Novgorod's borders. I have no idea what Bolshaya Laptyuga is, though I presume it's a river, but I do know what Bolshaya means in Russian ("Big," "Great" or "Large"). Instances like these can at least be translated when an indigenous name is unknown.

The location of Perm is named after a city that, besides being founded much later, only got its name in 1781, in reference to the traditional region. It should be renamed, possibly to Yegoshikha. The Perm province should be renamed as well, to what I'm not sure. Historically, Perm (or Great Perm) seems to have had its capital at Cherdyn, so those would make good names for the Cherdyn province, unless you've already reserved one of them for an area.

Olonets province should be Obonezh'ye. Vyatka province should be Vyatka Land.
 
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I am not an expert on this subject, so if you would like, you can read more about it in relevant articles. But from what I know:
First of all, as far as I remember, the locations of Constantinople and Athens are smaller, so not many settlements are included in them. Secondly, Constantinople was devastated in 1204, which is not so far from 1337. Athens was also going through a far from its best period at that moment. So, although I may be wrong, I don't find it so surprising that Moscow has a larger population than Athens, for example. Although I'm not saying that there should be 200k, probably it should be a little less.
While Moscow had the siege of Moscow in 1238, where it was described as nothing more than `At the time Moscow was but a fortified village, a trading post "on a crossroads of four rivers"`.
 
While Moscow had the siege of Moscow in 1238, where it was described as nothing more than `At the time Moscow was but a fortified village, a trading post "on a crossroads of four rivers"`.
The situation changed since then drastically, and mainly because of Kalita. When he was interacting with other principalities (buying different villages, buting entire principalities, attacking them and so on), he always made sure to relocate as many people as possible to Moscow and help it grow.
For example, when he sacked Rostov in 1328, he gave huge benefits to all locals who was ready to migrate to Moscow. In the end there was so many people coming in that they populated entire Radonej area.
200k for Moscow seems a very high population. It is higher than anything in the Anatolia or Greece maps.

Wikipedia has some info about Moscow populations at different times but of course nothing in 1337
- 40k in 1400 "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Moscow#Historical_demographics - based on [20]"
- 100k+ in 1502 "This is in stark contrast to the 41,500 houses and at least 100 thousand inhabitants that Moscow had in 1520.[18]"
- 270k in 1812 "At the beginning of 1812 Moscow had around 270,184 inhabitants according to a contemporary police survey;[12]"
I actually happened to read a book yesterday about Kalita and principalities in 14th century, and I can say for sure that a lot of things that are written on wikipedea are wrong. Also, even if we take 1400 information for granted, there was a raid in 1382 when Moscow got ravaged and burned down by Tokhtamysh.
 
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