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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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I'm truly uncertain about the cultures... Don't they look far-fetched? The Rutenian culture is incredibly important. It allows us to simulate the real historical process, showing how the Ukrainian and Belarusian identities developed in western Rus.
I think this is the weirdest part, for me anyway. If they've separated Ruthenian culture so that it could later diverge into Ukrainian and Byelorussian, then that means they've already got mechanics to allows divergent cultures to appear.

Then why not add the same mechanic to the entirety of eastern Slavic lands. Let them all start as Russian (Rus', Ruthenian, whatever name would be politically correct in the contemporary Europe) culture, then get dynamically separated over the course of the game. You could even make it so that they separate depending on the tag that the pops live under. If under a non East slavic tag they diverge dynamically into Ukrainian (under Poland) and Byelorussian (under Lithuania). Or they separate (probably over a longer period of time) into tag-named cultures if living under an east Slavic tag (e.g. Muscovites under Moscow, Tverians under Tver, etc).

That would both be realistic, historically accurate, and add an interesting gameplay layer to try to rush Russian lands' unification (that historically wouldn't take centuries) to reap benefits of having a unified culture across your realm.
 
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Can you show the map of the Tatar yoke Organization? On the TT about it, I think not all nations were correctly assigned. For example, the Prince of Nizhny Novgorod was elected by Uzbeg Khan in 1341.
Sure. I've just noticed that we may have to add Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma to it, as being ruled by Ivan 'Kalita':

Tatar Yoke.png
 
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What are arctic and continental written across the map multiple times instead of just one big word? Not important, just curious.
otherwise the text is bigger than normal playing distance. you would just see the massive letters "-cti-" or "-onti-" across the screen which isnt useful and doesnt look nice
 
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Love it. These maps just reinforce the fact how close Russia was to becoming a part of Greater Lithuania. Algirdas (hardly anyone knows about him) was raiding and annexing parts of Russian core effectively during his reign, even with relentless German and crusader invasions from the West. Moscow was on a defensive for long time after 1337. So I hope devs don't give Muscovy some unhistorical buffs because it's far from a great power. That German pressure from the west prevented a some sort of super early Lithuanian-Russian Empire. Lithuanian troops were still at the gates of Kremlin three times.
 
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I'll throw in my 2 cents. Mari should be the majority in quite a few more locations such as Yaransk, which was actually the center of Mari culture and only started russifying in the late 1500s. Mari culture should really be majority as far west as Uren, Kosmodemyansk, Vasilsursk and the two locations just west of these but I cannot quite read their location names. Russian (Muscovite) culture most certainly should not stretch out this far east already. Manturovo, Makaryev, and Vetluga also should be at least minority Mari, if not Majority. Malmyzh should be added as a location, it was an important center for Mari people and was the capital of the Malmyzh Principality. I know less about Chuvash and Moksha, but I do know they should both be added, Chuvash people should be majority in Cheboksary, Alikovo, Tsivilsk, Poretskoye, and Atishchevo, with minorities throughout surrounding provinces. Moksha should be added and majority in Arzamas, Shatki, Perevoz, Sechenovo, and all locations south of these to Insar, Saransk, I think Chamsioka? Lunino, Mokshan, Bogdanovo, etc. ( I can't read them, hopefully you can postulate the ones im speaking of)
 
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1.Why does the Vyatka Republic have modern northwestern borders of its administrative entity?
2. Why was it decided to classify the slavic population of Vyatka as belonging to the Muscovite culture and not the Novgorodian culture? Even now the Vyatka dialect has some archaic Novgorodian language forms.
3. Also why there is a lonely wasteland in the north of Nagorsk?
In general, it is clear that there are almost no sources about the population or borders of the Vyatka land in 1337, but still, I hope that this will be corrected. Btw i'm glad finally see the map of this region and I for surely hyped for this *Top secret* game
 
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Hey, thanks for your work!

I will attach here the map from the proposal for the Ruthenian culture division, but here it is valid for the Severian culture.

Ruthenian cultures.png

Severian culture must include Chernihiv and it shouldn't go so far to the north (look at the map where the Severians lived). It is based on the Duchy of Chernihiv. Yes, Smolensk was shortly a part of the Duchy of Severia in the GDL in the 15-16th centuries, but culturally these lands are not associated with the term 'Severia' at all. Severian culture should be limited around the rectangle Chernihiv - Gomel - Bryansk - Kursk.

In Ukraine we literally have a town called Novhorod-Siversky (means "Novgorod in Severia") in the Chernihiv oblast, you have it in your maps too as a location, but it is not a part of Severian culture, it's a bit weird :)

So I propose to create Smolenskian culture and move Severian to the south.

Severians.jpg


Concerning the menioned culture vs political division principle, I think you should follow the same logic for all ex-Kyivan Rus lands.
Your logic for the Russian lands is obvious - cultures based on Novgorod Rep., Vladimir-Suzdal and Smolensk Duchies, so you should not ignore that in Ruthenia Kyivan, Chernihiv-Severian, Galician-Volhynian, Turov-Pinsk and Polotsk Duchies were also kind of separated.

KyivanRus.jpg


So Ruthenian culture should be limited by Kyiv and Pereyaslav duchies (or call it South Ruthenian), Severian culture for the duchy of Chernihiv, Galician and Volhynian cultures (or united West Ruthennian), Polesian culture for Polesia region (the duchy of Turov-Pinsk), Polatskian culture (or North Ruthenian) for the duchy of Polatsk.
 
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There's plenty to chew on here I love this.

The first Tinto Maps to show uncolonized land! Though I am a little disappointed there's no Finnish tags at all. Will there be a way for the Finnish people to have some agency over the course of history, or are they fated to be punching bags between Russian and Scandinadian forever? Also it seems much of the uncolonized land has Russian location names. Is this just a placeholder, a deliberate choice, or a necessary limitation of lack of data on the indigenous toponymy?

I see Perm's placeholder "Expert Scholar" dynasty has been replaced with "Cherdyn". Good to see progress on that front.

I see large wastelands like Karelia are still part of provinces. Mixed opinion there. It looks real nice if you take it as a map of administrative divisions, but it could be confusing if the Province map mode is one players are expected to spend a lot of time looking at for strategic decisions.

And we really need more granularity in climate than just "continental". Moscow and St Petersburg have no business having the same climate as Prague!

Finally, I would like to ask what the small spread of Tengriist pops on the religion mapmade represents. They do not align well with the culture map, and whatever the "Pomors" are they don't seem related to the steppe people, and some are in locations that are marked Novgorodian on the culture map! Is this an oversight, or is there historical basis for some Russians in the far backwater of Novgorod abandoning Christianity and "going native" in their religious practices.
1. It is possible for Finland to become an independent country.
2. Location names, initially we went for the current names, but we have yet to add more dynamic localization, including the indigenous toponymy, as usual.
3. We need them to be part of provinces for some calculations.
4. Adding more climates is non-trivial at this stage... We'll think about it.
5. Good question, looks like an overlook when creating the minorities... We'll double-check, thanks for the note!
 
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Sure. I've just noticed that we may have to add Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma to it, as being ruled by Ivan 'Kalita':

View attachment 1155163
What are the reasons for not adding all russian nations, that are not under Lithuania, into the Tatar yoke organisation?
Also, Dmitrov broke into two nations(Dmitrov and Galich) between 1280 and 1334, and in 1360 Tatars intervened into dynastic struggle (right before joining muscovy)
 
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Just an idea for the population map mode, but what about shades of blue? Places with low population are a light, almost white blue, which gets darker with higher population.
@SaintDaveUK is already aware of the different possible combinations for the population map mode suggested throughout the different Tinto Maps (as mostly compiled in this thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ent-pop-map-sketches-from-tm-numbers.1679345/), and he is cooking something.
 
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Suzdal was a separate principality in 1337, under Prince Konstantin. He was given Nizhny Novgorod in 1341, after the death of Ivan Kalita.

Dmitrov, Kostroma, Beloozero, Mologa, Starodub, Nizhny Novgorod should all be a part of the yoke.

For the cultures, I suggest the following six East Slavic cultures, with very mixed borders:
- Novgorodian (violet)
- Muscovite (cool green)
- Polotskian (western half of warm green)
- Chernigovan (eastern half of warm green)
- Kyivan (light brown)
- Galician (yellow)

View attachment 1155114

Having wheat in Tver and western Muscovy in wrong. Wheat was more common around Vladmir, Suzdal, Starodub, the region that is called Opolye.

The Karachev dynasty is weird. Every ruler there successfully claimed to be a Rurikovich, even if the modern Y-DNA analysis proved them wrong.

I'll go through the map of provinces later and provide detailed feedback. Oh boy, does it need some.
Thanks, appreciated!
 
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1. It is possible for Finland to become an independent country.
2. Location names, initially we went for the current names, but we have yet to add more dynamic localization, including the indigenous toponymy, as usual.
3. We need them to be part of provinces for some calculations.
4. Adding more climates is non-trivial at this stage... We'll think about it.
5. Good question, looks like an overlook when creating the minorities... We'll double-check, thanks for the note!
Thank you for answering my questions Pavia! Glad there are plans for further checks and toponymies.

3. Do these "calculations" pertain to as yet unrevealed mechanics, or is this for some dry technical reason that doesn't matter to gameplay? If the latter I want to hear it anyway, I like hearing about quirks under the hood.

3. "non-trivial" in the sense of "it would require a massive amount of research that throws off the content designer's schedules", or in the sense of "the number of different climates is hard-coded and introducing one more requires overhauling the codebase"? I hope it is just the former, for the sake of modders if nothing else. Either way though, I understand if it's not a team priority.
 
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I know that as a name it kinda sucks ass but will it be possible to select the historical"Lord Novgorod the Great" for the Novgorod tag?
It can be made a custom title, yes.
 
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