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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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1. Muscovy starts in a strong position to become the 'historical winner', but it's in an open situation, with Novgorod being the other important Russian power, and the Golden Horde still being the hegemon to the south (although it may collapse, as historically happened, of course).

2. Poland and Lithuania will have some curve balls depending on how they behave, and formation of the Commonwealth is not guaranteed; we aren't portraying the 18th partition, though, as that would make little sense.

3. There will be some common and some unique features of the conquest and colonization of Siberia.

4. It's not in the plans, sorry.
About not adding the Volga River on the Map, does that means that Project Cesar won't add river names? I was hoping to be able to see/read the major river and mountain names, at least in one of the map modes
 
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Better dead than... yellow.
Yeah, but you are downvoting posts that argue against the large Muscovite culture or against the widespreadness of Russian cultures too. You are also downvoting the helpful developer messages. Do you want there to be a sea in the place of Russia? What exactly do you expect to achieve by doing this? You could've channeled this "patriotism" into something useful by contributing to the Polish Tinto Maps like your non-weirdo compatriots.
 
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Čimarii jüla just means "Mari religion" in Mari. Also, a lot of those are the names of neopagan movements. I think they're just going with "[ethnic group] Paganism/Shamanism" unless there's a more fitting name. The plan is to eventually fully split all the Animist and Shamanist groups into more unique religions, as stated.
They are using Asatru for the Norse religion so I don't see the issue with using modern pagan terms especially when historical terms might not have existed; and I honestly prefer it but tis just me. Though having it as "[ethnic group] paganism / shamanism" while not my preference at least is far better than blanket "animist"
 
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Carpathia AND the Balkans in one TM? Hoping to quarantine the biggest flame wars into a single thread I see.
Anatolia, Russia, and the Balkans in a row: the trilogy of Tinto Maps: Electric Boogaloo. :cool:

Now seriously, people behaved very well last week, and as far as how this Tinto Maps is going, it's also quite peaceful. I hope this also to be the mood next week, as it makes our work way easier, so we can just focus on cooking the feedback, without flaming it. :)
 
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They are using Asatru for the Norse religion so I don't see the issue with using modern pagan terms especially when historical terms might not have existed; and I honestly prefer it but tis just me. Though having it as "[ethnic group] paganism / shamanism" while not my preference at least is far better than blanket "animist"
I really, really hope they stop using Romuva and Asatru too. It's ugly and unimmersive in my opinion.
 
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Screenshot_20240628_162126_Samsung Internet.png

Why is the Onega peninsula wasteland? It has been inhabited by humans since Neolithic times and the first Russian settlements here date to 10th-12th century, with larger settlements in the 14th century. While never large, they were important for Salt trade especially.

IMG_20240628_163718.jpg

I would thus add 3 new locations:
1. Nyonoksa
Huge salt producer, Nyonoksa was founded and even got city rights in 1397. It was rich enough to be the target of Norwegian raids in the 15th century.


2. Luda (&Pertominsk)
Luda dates to the 14th century and Pertominsk (today the largest settlement on the peninsula) to early 17th century. Another important Salt producer


3. Lyamtsa (&Purnema)
The southern coast of the peninsula was colonized by Novgorod by the end of 14th century, with Purnema and Lyamtsa dating to mid-16th century at the latest. The area belonged to the powerful Solovyetsky Monastery. While Salt was also produced here, Fur and Whaling (Ivory) were the more important industries. As both settlements existed in the period, you could even have both as locations and assign one Fur and the other Ivory.


The northernmost parts of the peninsula could be a wasteland, as they were only settled in the 19th and 20th centuries, but I see less need for a small wasteland like that.

Is Pomorye between Onega and Arkhangelsk meant to be Severodvinsk?

Screenshot_20240628_161845_Samsung Internet.png


Less important than above, but is there a particular reason why Arkhangelsk is separated from the coastline to its north by a wasteland? The location of Kuya (representing the river and the tiny settlement at its mouth) can be added here to connect them.


It's also not clear whether the Solovyetsky Island is a location or a part of another one? I just see it's not a wasteland. Given its importance and distance to other locations, I would definitely make it a location of its own.

Also in the region, you mention Pomors as being separate from Russians - but Pomors are a mix of native cultures and Russian settlers, with the latter being culturally dominant. Is there a way to represent that?
 
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Shouldn't Muscovy be rather called Moscow, to be consistent with all the other tags in the region?

Yes, it's more recognisible for players, but it still sticks out as the only westernised and non-authentic name.
 
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Anatolia, Russia, and the Balkans in a row: the trilogy of Tinto Maps: Electric Boogaloo. :cool:

Now seriously, people behaved very well last week, and as far as how this Tinto Maps is going, it's also quite peaceful. I hope this also to be the mood next week, as it makes our work way easier, so we can just focus on cooking the feedback, without flaming it. :)
I promised you I would behave a few weeks before lol! We had a few instances of weird stuff but people really kept it on point, relevant and respectful. I think the Balkans one will be wilder though, you have Albanians, North Macedonians and the whole Transylvania debate in one thread. It will probably surpass the Poland TM as the one with the most messages
 
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I really, really hope they stop using Romuva and Asatru too. It's ugly and unimmersive in my opinion.
Disagree. I think it's better to use a modern name that could possibly be an endonym, rather than a dismissive obvious exonym. You know Europa Universalia players like their religious conversion. Being the king of Lithuania and declaring "all Russia must now become Romuva" feels cool. Declaring "All Russia must now become Baltic Pagan" feels weak and less immersive.
 
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So unless the Novgorod-muscovy situation is unique, it sounds like some republics can elect leaders from other countries, leading to republic-monarchy or maybe even republic-republic PUs. I wonder how republics choose who to elect?
Just checked, and currently, we have 13 different types of heir selections available for republics; some generic, some unique; so there will be different types of possibilities and combinations.
 
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Just checked, and currently, we have 13 different types of heir selections available for republics; some generic, some unique; so there will be different types of possibilities and combinations.
I read this 3 times as hair selections and was like okay cool… definitely missing something.
 
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Since West Balts are a thing in the starting date you may as well be inclined to look into East Galindians who supposedly lived in depths of Russia. Find source for yourself.
I foreshadow a great force wreaking havoc upon me.
 
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I know that you are calling it Russian Core for the sake of clarity, but i wonder if that would be the right name for the region at that time. Muscovy only started calling itself Russia in early 1700s when the empire was established, after Muskovy conquered Ruthenian lands, or lands of what used to be Kievan Rus.
 
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