• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
  • 158Like
  • 67Love
  • 6
  • 6
  • 5
Reactions:
Disagree. I think it's better to use a modern name that could possibly be an endonym, rather than a dismissive obvious exonym. You know Europa Universalia players like their religious conversion. Being the king of Lithuania and declaring "all Russia must now become Romuva" feels cool. Declaring "All Russia must now become Baltic Pagan" feels weak and less immersive.
In the case of Norse Paganism we do know the Norse called it Forn Sið, which means "old custom", so even in that case it was understood in relation to Christianity. I guess if you dislike just "[x] Paganism/Shamanism" you could translate the term "Indigenous Belief" into each and every ethnic group that has its own paganism represented, but that might be just as awkward.
In any case I imagine there will be limitations in how far ethnic religions can spread outside of certain cultures and culture groups so maybe it won't be that awkward anyways. In real life, if Slavs ever mass-adopted Baltic Paganism it would've probably been as a result of heavy Baltic influence in their overall culture anyways.
 
  • 6
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Screenshot_20240628_171537_Samsung Internet.png

Can we get some more zoomed in location maps of the region, particularly in western Russia? There are so many locations where it's not possible to read what their names are, or the names are not visible at all

Would also be a nice thing to get the zoomed in sections in the main posts each week, as it is a problem in some of the regions shown.
 
  • 8
Reactions:
In cases like this where market access is really bad, what are the downsides to simply creating a bunch of markets with better access? Is it costly in some way?
Ideally, you would like to have a big market where good market access is available, as it fuels more resources into it, and is easier to control; creating new markets costs resources, but allows for better trading integration where market access is very low. This is obviously WIP, and may not be the case by the game release, so take my words with a grain of salt.
 
  • 34Like
  • 4
  • 3
  • 1Love
Reactions:
Is this a sort of 'one off' situation that is just the way things are at game's start, or is it possible during normal gameplay for Republics (at least certain types of Republics) to elect leaders from other countries? If the latter, it sounds like an interesting way for Republics to play.
It will be possible for republics such as Novgorod to elect their leaders from other countries, yes. Also for some elective monarchies, as happened historically.
 
  • 31Love
  • 20Like
  • 1
Reactions:
We usually take into account linguistics for cultural division. So, 'Novgorodian' portrays the 'Northern dialects' of Eastern Rus, 'Muscovite' the 'Central dialects', and 'Severian' the 'Southern dialects'. But take this as an open answer; I think that there might be reasons to unify the culture into 'Russian', and also to further subdivide it (as another person pointed out on the previous page); we'll review all the informed opinions on the matter after a while, and make a decision regarding that that feel appropriate both for historical and game-logical reasons. Thanks for the input, by the way. ;)
Will the Cossac culture be implemented? They were Severians and Ruthenians, who migrated into the Steppe, and formed nomad-like culture.
 
  • 8
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
About not adding the Volga River on the Map, does that means that Project Cesar won't add river names? I was hoping to be able to see/read the major river and mountain names, at least in one of the map modes
We aren't planning for that; probably, there will be thousands of rivers in the game.
 
  • 28Like
  • 17
  • 6
  • 3
  • 1Love
Reactions:
Anatolia, Russia, and the Balkans in a row: the trilogy of Tinto Maps: Electric Boogaloo. :cool:

Now seriously, people behaved very well last week, and as far as how this Tinto Maps is going, it's also quite peaceful. I hope this also to be the mood next week, as it makes our work way easier, so we can just focus on cooking the feedback, without flaming it. :)
Hopefully things have mellowed out, but I'm still dreading the 10 new pages of Transylvania arguments.
 
  • 4
  • 2Haha
Reactions:
Since West Balts are a thing in the starting date you may as well be inclined to look into East Galindians who supposedly lived in depths of Russia. Find source for yourself.
I foreshadow a great force wreaking havoc upon me.
provide your own god damn source. lazy man
 
  • 4Haha
  • 4
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Regarding religion:

-Slavic paganism persisted until the beginning of the 15th century, when in 1415 Metropolitan Photius, under the threat of troops, baptized Mtsensk (re-baptized). There is an opinion that the inhabitants of Mtsensk belonged to the Baltic religious tradition (for, in essence, they were the Russified Baltic tribe Golyad), in which case the extreme point is the Zbruch cult center, which. according to archeology, it operated until the middle of the 14th century.
-Baltic paganism: Samogitia was baptized in 1417, but pagans were not particularly persecuted, so it is difficult to establish a clear border; in any case, the Jesuit mission in the 16th century was not involved in baptism and confrontation with pagan priests, but only fought with the celebration of pagan rituals among the common people, that is, the cult had already fallen into decline by that time.
 
  • 11
  • 5Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I promised you I would behave a few weeks before lol! We had a few instances of weird stuff but people really kept it on point, relevant and respectful. I think the Balkans one will be wilder though, you have Albanians, North Macedonians and the whole Transylvania debate in one thread. It will probably surpass the Poland TM as the one with the most messages
Non-zero chance someone tries to deny the existence of Bosnian culture or say something strange about Vlachs.
 
  • 7Haha
  • 3
Reactions:
Now, this might not be the exact thread to ask this, but I was wondering if there will be a difference between ice-free and non-ice-free ports, and if so, will they have special mechanics? Given that it is something that has always been important for Russia.
 
  • 21Like
  • 4
Reactions:
Shouldn't Muscovy be rather called Moscow, to be consistent with all the other tags in the region?

Yes, it's more recognisible for players, but it still sticks out as the only westernised and non-authentic name.
It's a convention, one of the two possible ways of naming the country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Moscow . BTW, although it's not displayed in the map, the full dynamic country name is 'Grand Principality of Muscovy'.

But we're open to feedback, if the community thinks that Moscow is more appropriate as the English form than Muscovy.
 
  • 33Like
  • 5
Reactions: