Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

[Alexsandr_Rau]

It seems to me that the method of dividing Russian culture is completely unacceptable; there have never been separate Moscow, Novgorod, and certainly not any Seversk cultures. Such a division would be much more logical: Russian or Central Russian - the central Russian region, Northern Russian - the regions of Vologda, reflecting the migration of Russians to the north, Pomeranian - already represented on the map, Southern Russian - regions south of Ryazan and on the border with the steppe and possibly with Lithuania state, in the future this culture could become the Cossacks.

within the framework of the game period and the mechanics of the rebels, it is easier to make 8-12 cultures along the borders of the pre-Mongol principalities. Which still exist at the time of the game as political and cultural formations.

The question here is how to display that borderline cultures would sometimes be logical to include in different cultural groups at the same time.

The Volynians and Galicians were very close to the Poles, but their differences from the Novgorodians were not yet so great as to include them in the cultural group of the Poles and Czechs.

 

[Cuke]

While the page is indeed describing "Ancient Russian" narodnost, the rest is an outright falsity, and I am more than ready to call you out on that. The only time that the Old East Slavic peoples are not called "Ancient Russians"

Please do quote the Russian text to call me out. The page never ever calls anyone "Ancient Russians". It's always an adjective.

Especially given that I have studied Russian historiography and other essential elements to my arguments in Uni.

Well, you've studied it badly and didn't clear the first hurdle of learning Russian language, given that you're conflating the adjective "древнерусские" with the substantive noun "русские".

I have encountered the term "древнерусские" and "русские" used as substantives in Russian to describe the Rusian people and members thereof.

Okay, where did you encounter them? The wiki you reference uses "древнерусские" as an adjective, not a subtantive - so it must be somewhere else.

 

[ibvfteh]

Locations
View attachment 1154683
We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
View attachment 1154684
The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

For location\province borders, I propose the usage of 17 century uezd borders

They are very late for the game span, but they were created in the XIV century and remained more or less stable until big reform in the XVIII century.
Here are some examples of borders I found (Smolensk, Novgorod and Kazan are highlighted)

 

[CocoBZ]

For location\province borders, I propose the usage of 17 century uezd borders
View attachment 1157174

They are very late for the game span, but they were created in the XIV century and remained more or less stable until big reform in the XVIII century.
Here are some examples of borders I found (Smolensk, Novgorod and Kazan are highlighted)
View attachment 1157177View attachment 1157176View attachment 1157175

You say 17th century, but that map includes Bessarabia, so it's of the 19th century.

 

[Reimond77]

As for religion, how much detail does Tinto want to portray it? The church schism was a very important part of the history of Russia, people were killed en masse for their views. According to some estimates, up to 10% of the population still remained Old Believers after that (before the arrival of the Soviet government). If you look at the history of crosses in Russia, they were very different from the Greek ones at first. In addition, after the arrival of the yoke, the temples changed their canon of construction. That is, it turns out that at first some kind of "Moscow Orthodoxy" mixed with Slavic paganism was more widespread. Then the Tatars come with the Mongol ruler at their head and slightly change the Russian religion - "Old Believers", as a mixture of Moscow Orthodoxy with Nestorianism. During the time of the Golden Horde, many Orthodox frescoes appeared, where instead of crosses on the depicted temples, crescents with their ends pointing straight up are depicted. And only then does the Nikon reform take place, which brings the rituals to the Constantinople standard and religion becomes modern "Russian Orthodoxy". Which, in turn, differs slightly from Greek Orthodoxy. And there are minor differences between all Russian religions, but then Faith played a very important role in people's lives and led to religious wars. Unfortunately, I have not found generalized data for the whole of Russia, but there are stories of individual excavation sites and research. Of course, I would like to have 5 Russian religions, including a very small number of Slavic pagans. But is such a quantity necessary from a gaming point of view?

 

[CocoBZ]

As for religion, how much detail does Tinto want to portray it? The church schism was a very important part of the history of Russia, people were killed en masse for their views. According to some estimates, up to 10% of the population still remained Old Believers after that (before the arrival of the Soviet government). If you look at the history of crosses in Russia, they were very different from the Greek ones at first. In addition, after the arrival of the yoke, the temples changed their canon of construction. That is, it turns out that at first some kind of "Moscow Orthodoxy" mixed with Slavic paganism was more widespread. Then the Tatars come with the Mongol ruler at their head and slightly change the Russian religion - "Old Believers", as a mixture of Moscow Orthodoxy with Nestorianism. During the time of the Golden Horde, many Orthodox frescoes appeared, where instead of crosses on the depicted temples, crescents with their ends pointing straight up are depicted. And only then does the Nikon reform take place, which brings the rituals to the Constantinople standard and religion becomes modern "Russian Orthodoxy". Which, in turn, differs slightly from Greek Orthodoxy. And there are minor differences between all Russian religions, but then Faith played a very important role in people's lives and led to religious wars. Unfortunately, I have not found generalized data for the whole of Russia, but there are stories of individual excavation sites and research. Of course, I would like to have 5 Russian religions, including a very small number of Slavic pagans. But is such a quantity necessary from a gaming point of view?

Only the Old Believers should be portrayed separately. Orthodox Christianity is still Orthodox Christianity, whether it be Greek, Russian, Bulgarian etc.

 

[Adrianople]

Please do quote the Russian text to call me out. The page never ever calls anyone "Ancient Russians". It's always an adjective.


Well, you've studied it badly and didn't clear the first hurdle of learning Russian language, given that you're conflating the adjective "древнерусские" with the substantive noun "русские".

You are clearly missing any point. It's the fact that the Russian term "русский" is clearly the term for ethnic Russians today, and "древнерусский" is clearly derived from that term. It's not important, whatever you are saying because you willingly ignore the fact that to use "русский", which has already been made into a substantive with it being the term for ethnic Russians since the end of the Russian Empire (whereas before, the term was used often with Russians in mind, but also to conflate Ukrainians and Belarusians (who were previously called Rusyns and Litvins). It doesn't matter whether it is used directly as a substantive, it's use in Russian is rooted in propaganda and promotes an exclusive seniority over other East Slavic peoples.

Okay, where did you encounter them? The wiki you reference uses "древнерусские" as an adjective, not a subtantive - so it must be somewhere else.

Any use of the word "древнерусский" implies a direct connection and claim to Rus by the "русские".

Я сам з Горлівки. Якщо тобі треба мені вияснити, як значить слово "русский" в російській мові, я вже б попросив.

 

[Cuke]

You are clearly missing any point.

Something's wrong with the point, maybe? Going back to your original post: "This is why in Russian the inhabitants of the Rus Land are called "Ancient Russians" (Russian: древнерусские), despite the existence of endonyms that still survive in Ukrainian and Belarusian". You reference a specific wiki page, so did you mean:

"This is why in Russian the inhabitants of the Rus Land are called "Ancient Russian nation" (Russian: древнерусская народность), despite the existence of endonyms that still survive in Ukrainian and Belarusian""

It's the fact that the Russian term "русский" is clearly the term for ethnic Russians today, and "древнерусский" is clearly derived from that term.

Um... Frankly, one is not derived from the other. "древнерусский" is an adjective of "Древняя Русь" (in English: Ancient Russian derives from Ancient Rus), not an extended variant of "русский" (in English: Ancient Russian is not Russian + Ancient). Nobody uses "древнерусский" as an ethnonym.

It's not important, whatever you are saying because you willingly ignore the fact that to use "русский", which has already been made into a substantive with it being the term for ethnic Russians since the end of the Russian Empire (whereas before, the term was used often with Russians in mind, but also to conflate Ukrainians and Belarusians (who were previously called Rusyns and Litvins).

To be honest, I don't understand what you've written. Maybe something's missing in your long sentence?

It doesn't matter whether it is used directly as a substantive, it's use in Russian is rooted in propaganda and promotes an exclusive seniority over other East Slavic peoples.

What's "seniority over other East Slavic peoples"? More importantly, HOW seniority over other East Slavic peoples? You're implying that nations are a part of an immanent hierarchy when they aren't.

Any use of the word "древнерусский" implies a direct connection and claim to Rus by the "русские".

Sure does. Why wouldn't it. The French don't mind claiming Gaul, why should Russians be any different.

 

[Delp4i]

Northern Volga Region

There’s no representation of the local finno-ugric chiefdoms, and all the land north-eastern of the volga river is owned by Golden Horde or Nizhny Novgorod, which was not the case during that time. According to K. Sanukov’s article, Ethno-Political Development of Mari between Turks and Slavs:

There are known chronicle accounts of the extension of the power of the Galich principality over the Vetluga Mari and the annexation of the Vetluga Cheremis principality, led by the "kuguz" (kuguz – the eldest man in the family, from which the word "kugija," meaning sovereign or king, also derived). The Galich princes also recruited "Chud and Meadow Cheremis" into their army. The history of this "Cheremis principality" is interesting because it arose in a territory equally distant from both Russian principalities and Tatar domains, in lands where the power of both was nominal and episodic, and where neither of these conquerors truly extended their reach. This indicates that the internal ethno-social forces of the Mari people were ripe for the creation of their own national statehood with a clear ethnic identity, but they could not realize this potential due to external conditions. The Mari "kuguzes" Khodzha-Yaraltem, Kai, and Bai-Boroda for a long time maneuvered between Russians and Tatars. In the early 15th century, the "Vetluga Cheremis prince" Kel'debek, in alliance with the Kazan and Vyatka rulers, fought against the agents of Moscow's policy on the Northern Dvina in Veliky Ustyug, successfully competing with Galich and Kostroma.

This implies that the territory which is split between Nizhny Novgorod and Golden Horde was not directly owned by either of those, and was under control of local Finno-ugric princes.

More Mari people in the West

Before the Russo-Kazani Wars which caused various migrations of Volga people, The Mari people had lived more to the west than nowadays. In 10th century they composed primary and majority population north of the Volga river.

The Russian expansion to the east and northeast continued both during the period of feudal fragmentation of Rus' and during the dominance of the Golden Horde. The Kostroma, Galich, and Nizhny Novgorod principalities included territories inhabited by the Mari people. The introduction of the Russian population was particularly intensive in the area between the Unzha and Vetluga rivers and in the Vetluga region, which, according to archaeological evidence, had previously been inhabited by Mari tribes.

Considering that colonization of Volga was only beginning during 14th century, more provinces to the west of today’s Mari El would be majority inhabited by Mari people.

 

[Pavía]

Thanks for the response!

Could we get a closer screenshot of Karelia? I'm having trouble identifying these locations.
View attachment 1155417

Sure:

 

[Pavía]

Speaking of these tweaks to how markets spread... Could you tell us if local centers of trade will get to play a part here? I mean, will they matter in terms of market access & attraction?

To put it in practical terms, take Florence.
Will Florence feel like a major hub in the Genoese market, capable of bringing eastern Tuscany into Genoa's orbit?
Will Florence have buildings or modifiers that grant it bonus market access, befitting of a powerful trade city (and counteracting its rather peripheral location within the abstracted Genoese market)?
Will the improved market access spill over to nearby locations, which primarily trade through Florence (and so should benefit from their proximity to the local trade center even when they lack convenient connections to Genoa)?
Were Florence to flip and join the Venetian market, would other locations in Tuscany be more inclined to follow in its footsteps?

Obviously Florence is only an example. The same effects could apply to Danzig or Chester; basically any place with regional commercial significance that isn't the seat of its market.

Towns and cities will be important for market access and power, as they will have more infrastructure (=buildings) available to improve those. There are also some diplomatic interactions that you can do to restrict or allow access into markets, and some other factors affecting the markets that you might be able to influence through different means.

So, let's say, controlling and developing the city of Florence might be important to get the most from the market of Genoa, but that doesn't mean that it will be like that for the entire game, and it could be possible that it ends up flipping to the market of Venice, either by peaceful or aggressive means.

 

[Pavía]

what's the tan-colored culture in the south west corner?

Mishary.

 

[Pavía]

View attachment 1155963

I'm finally done with my Cultural map rework, it only took me 10 hours of work! It's as perfect as I can make it, but there's still some ambiguity in some areas, so I'll add a disclaimer if I think something is in any way ambiguous. I've also made this map without changing any locations, terrain, or any other map because that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Also, I've added the original map to the bottom of this post, so make sure to check it for comparison. So without further a due, let's get into the changes:

The first change is completely changing the position of Mari culture, in the original map all of the western Mari lands were made Muscovite, while huge Mari exclaves existed further east. That setup is anachronistic, as the Eastern Mari pockets only arose in 1552 when the the Mari were conquered by the Russians, with many fleeing east to avoid forced christinisation. So I've moved the Mari back to their homeland, although there should be an event where after a Russian conquest many Mari will flee east.

The next change is the Chuvash, who were hugely underrepresented originally, the Chuvash are descended from the Volga Bulgars, specifically the ones that didn't convert to Islam; they also speak an Oghuric language, which is mutually unintelligible with Kazani. Even today Chuvash make up the vast majority in Chuvashia and having several isolated pockets throughout the Volga region. As a final note on the Chuvash, in the original map they were only present as a minority in several locations, however those locations don't actually have any significant Chuvash population and never did, so I don't know why they had Chuvash minorities.

The next change is that I've overhauled the entire Komi-Udmurt border, originally the Komi made up the majority in the Vyatska region, despite the region being majority majority Udmurt until it was Rusified. I've also made Komi the majority in Perm and the lands to the east of it, as it was majority Komi and was never Udmurt to begin with. I based the border mostly on these maps Komi Map Great Perm Map.

Next up we have the Erzya, who are a Mordvin people who were only present in their eastern pocket in the original map, despite most Erzya living in Mordvinia to the west. I've also expanded them outside of Mordvinia slightly as those lands were not Rusified yet, including that little pocket to the south. I've also shifted the eastern pocket to the west by making the border the border follow the Reka river for the most part, as the Erzya lived west of that river.

The Moksha are the other extant Mordvin people, living in the regions described by these maps 2010 Census map Mordvin Language Map, also yes I checked the older censuses and other records and the Moksha have mostly stayed the same for as long as I can tell. They also have a minority pocket in the Kazani lands, which was present in the original map, nut it was the only Moksha location for some reason, it was also one location off, so I've shifted it to where it should be.

Then we have the Meschera, who may have been a Permic people or a Mordvin people, their language is poorly attested but their settlements aren't. They used to be the majority of the population in much of Ryazan oblast, however after the Mongol invasion their numbers significantly declined and they were forced into the swamps north of the Oka river, until they were eventually Rusified in a slow process over the next few centuries.

Next up are the Vepsians also known as just the Veps; who were only present in their modern majority areas in the original map, just shifted slightly to the east. But as it turns out the Veps used to be the majority along almost the entire coast of Onega, except for the north coast, which was mostly Karelian. I've also kept them as a minority in Belozeero as they would remain a large minority there before migrating south to Tver.

As for the Bashkir, they haven't had that many changes, I expanded them into some former Mari lands roughly along the modern border with the Tatars, I couldn't find any sources earlier than the first Russian census, in which the Tatar-Bashkir divide is roughly the same as it is today.

I've also added the Ungri, also spelt as Ungari, who were a Magyar people never migrated into the Pannonian basin, it's a misconception that the early Magyars were a homogonous group, with them being comprised of many different tribes, some of them Ungri, some Bashkir, some Khazar rebels, the Pannonian Avars and some Mari and Mordvin migrants as well. But the most important set of tribes were the Ungri tribes, who led the Mogyer confederation and were the tribe to speak the main descendent of the Magyar language. With all of this being said, there is a bit of ambiguity as to when the Ungri culture went extinct, because supposedly it went extinct in the 14th century, but I couldn't find anything more specific. So I've depicted them as being the minority in their homelands, with Bashkirs making up the majority as the Ungri culture went extinct when they integrated into Bashkir culture, which started around the 10th century and ended with them being fully integrated by the 14th century.

Which means that at game start the Ungri culture is almost extinct at game start, so I'm also proposing an achievement for the Ungri culture (yes I know that you haven't made the achievements yet). You see in CK3 there is an achievment called "Álmos There", which involves conquering Hungary and converting to Christianity as Álmos. So for PC I thing there should be an "Álmos There Again" achievement, where as an Ungrian tag you have to conquer all of Hungary and then convert to Christianity, in that order. Which would make this a pretty difficult achievement, but a fun one.

On a separate note I also expanded the Khanty/Mansi culture in a former Mari pocket, as it was primarily inhabited by the Khanty and Mansi peoples; who seem to be one culture in PC for now?

Lastly I've overhauled eastern Arkhangelsk oblast, as it was Vepsian in the original map and had Nenets pockets way too far south. The reason that there were Vepsians originally was that they were meant to represent the Bjarm culture, which is mostly unattested but may have been related to Vepsian. But that's not the best option as they were completely seperate cultures and it would be just as bad to have Dalmatian culture be represented by Romanian culture, just because they're related. For that reason Bjarm should be made it's own culture. I also extended the Bjarm to the sea as they were noted to also live along the coast by Nordic explorers, along with that I've moved the Nenets north, as the western Nenets only ever lived along the coast.

The Pomors were also included in this rework as I extened Pomor culture to include the Russians of Perm, as the Pomors used to be a much larger group as they were basically the "Northen Cossacks", whith them migrating east along the northern coast of Siberia and founding many cities along the rivers that flow into the Arctic sea. Also Arkhangelsk, shouldn't actually be a thing at game star, as it was founded in 1584, so the location should be renamed and a "Founding of Arkhangelsk" event should be added, similar to EU4. I also added some Sámi pops to the Bjarmian coast, as Sámi graves were found along the coast there.

Edit: The Arkhangelsk rework is quite ambiguous, as there's hardly any sources and loads of the evidence comes from a select few archeological sites. I just forgot to say that originally, edit over.
And that will be all, I spent a long time on this map and I really hope it helps shape the region in PC, but it's not perfect and if anyone finds something wrong with the map, please tell me. Also here's the old map for comparison.

View attachment 1156007

Great feedback, thanks!

PS: Just saw the updated map, thanks again!

 

[Alexsandr_Rau]

Rzhev should be part of Vyazma

Apparently, in the second half of the 13th century. As part of the Smolensk land, on its eastern outskirts, the Mozhaisk principality arose. The first famous Mozhaisk prince was Fyodor Rostislavich, who then became (c. 1260) the prince of Yaroslavl, and from 1280 - at the same time the prince of Smolensk86. At the end of the XIII - beginning of the XIV century. (finally in 1303) the territory of the Mozhaisk principality came under the rule of the Moscow princes87.

Under 1314-1315 the chronicles mention Prince Fyodor Rzhevsky, who was the governor of Yuri Danilovich of Moscow in Novgorod88. Apparently, this is Fyodor Svyatoslavich, later known as Prince Vyazemsky: the Rzhev principality adjoined Vyazemsky from the north; Obviously, having switched to reign in Vyazma, Fedor united the Vyazemsky and Rzhev principalities under his rule and lost Rzhev along with Vyazma, leaving in the 40s to serve the Moscow prince89.

In the extreme northeast of the Smolensk land in the 14th century there also existed two tiny principalities - Fominskoe and Berezuiskoe (with centers in the Fomin town and Berezuya near Rzhev, on the border of the Tver principality). The Fominsk princes are mentioned in chronicles in 1339 and 1387, and they are also known from genealogical books90. Prince Vasily Ivanovich Berezuisky is mentioned in 1370.91 Both the Fominsk and Berezuisky princes apparently traced their origins to Konstantin, brother of Mstislav Davydovich (prince of Smolensk in the 20s of the 13th century)92.

In general, although one can talk about the increasing fragmentation of the Smolensk land in the second half of the 13th-14th centuries, it did not become typical for it to assign appanage principalities to certain princely lines (as was the case in the Chernigov land). The central part of the land constantly remained in the hands of the Smolensk prince. Nothing is known about the inheritance of the eldest sons of the Smolensk princes Alexander Glebovich (1297-1313) and Ivan Alexandrovich (1313-1358) - Ivan and Svyatoslav, respectively. Apparently, in order not to aggravate the fragmentation of the territory, the Smolensk princes in the 14th century did not allocate inheritances (at least large ones) to their eldest sons93.

In the 14th century, the Smolensk princes began to be called “great”: this is how Ivan Alexandrovich was titled (in the treaty with Riga around 134094), his successors Svyatoslav Ivanovich (in the Moscow-Lithuanian treaty of 1372, in the Moscow-Tver treaty of 1375 and in the chronicle95) and Yuri Svyatoslavich (in an agreement with Jagiello in 1386)96. Apparently, the grand ducal title was accepted by Ivan Alexandrovich (between 1313-1340) and was recognized by the neighbors of the Smolensk principality.

 

[Pavía]

I don't know if it's been asked already, but are you aware of Ludi's feedback on this DD?

I watched his video over the weekend, we'll also take into account his feedback, yes.

 

[Xaroz]

I cant make out what the goods are in Vederlax.
At least it was famous for its stone quarries where the rapakivi-granite was mined, mainly used in st. Petersburg.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342367287_Rapakivi_granite_in_architecture_of_St_Petersburg_as_a_potential_global_heritage_stone_from_Finland_and_Russia

Its mentioned that Karelia had no shortage of copper throughout history, mined since the bronze age. The greatest findings should be in pitkäranta, in the location named Salmis. Although pitkäranta is north of Salmis but they are in the same location Salmis here on the map.
Here you have Tin as the good. Fair enough, both Copper and Tin are found here in the same location. Maybe it may stay as a tin-producing location, but could copper be put in Karelia?

Is it unbalanced to split the Salmis- location into 2? Pitkäranta with Copper in the northern half and Salmis with Tin in the southern half?

Finland av Friedr. Rühs. 1827. Karelen-Gamla Finland.

EDIT:
My suggestion is that Björkö - the location you call Koivisto, shouldn't have lumber. It was a decent fishing village, and should have fish according to me. Although lumber is abundant in the location.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

with my amazing paint skills i try to change a bit some of the slavic(and lithuanian) cultures, the rundown is muscovite changes to Suzdalian after the grand principality there
i moved severian more south,belarusian exist from smolensk to Slonim, i addded a red ruthenian culture in galicia volyn and yotvingian, i also broke down polish cultures but thats unrelevant here

 

[Slime99]

The Mezen river should NOT be Bjarmian, it should be Komi because the archaeological sites along it belong to the Vanvizdin culture.
From page 134 of this paper.

https://illhkomisc.ru/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/maesv_xx-27.12_web.pdf

 

[Alexsandr_Rau]

with my amazing paint skills i try to change a bit some of the slavic(and lithuanian) cultures, the rundown is muscovite changes to Suzdalian after the grand principality there
i moved severian more south,belarusian exist from smolensk to Slonim, i addded a red ruthenian culture in galicia volyn and yotvingian, i also broke down polish cultures but thats unrelevant here
View attachment 1157308

Smolensk is a famous Slavic tribe of Krivichi. Great breeding union
not from Suzdal at all
in the west, the Smolensk principality included both Orsha and Krichev.

Smolensk must have its own culture
Smolensk fought off Lithuania for a very long time. This is a principality with a long history and its own elite.
Grand Duchy

 

[Witcher587]

Idk if you still are looking into this but as a Slavic person I'd like you to portray Slavic paganism in rural population everywhere and not only in small pockets. With some variation in density. More pagans would be in Pommerania near Rugia and central-east Rus(sia) region near Novgorod.