• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
  • 162Like
  • 67Love
  • 7
  • 6
  • 5
Reactions:
in 1337 The Nizhny Novgorod Principality is not didn't exist. There was only Suzdal Principality

in 1337 Nizhny Novgorod and Gorodets became part of the Domain of the Grand Duchy of Vladimir. They are managed by Ivan Kalita

Khan Tokhta will give Nizhny Novgorod to Prince Suzdal - Konstantin Vasilyevich - only in 1341.
The territories of the future Nizhny Novgorod principality on the southern bank of the Volga in 1337 were much more modest than those now shown on the map.

Similarly, in the north, Nizhny Novgorod should be reduced in favor of the principalities of Galich Mersky and Dmitrov.
 
  • 3
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:
Smolensk is a famous Slavic tribe of Krivichi. Great breeding union
not from Suzdal at all
in the west, the Smolensk principality included both Orsha and Krichev.

Smolensk must have its own culture
Smolensk fought off Lithuania for a very long time. This is a principality with a long history and its own elite.
Grand Duchy
I think that a systematic approach is needed in this matter. So far, cultures are much broader than the various principalities. In this case, how does the Smolensk culture differ from the Polotsk culture?
 
But are you not bothered by the fact that he doesn't quote any source?
I decided to watch it, and despite Ludi's infamy some of his comments are pure valid observations.
E.g. Pavia says that Ivan Kalita is overlord of Nizhny Novgorod and shades of yellow mean lands of Tatar Yoke, so Ludi points out the Nizhny Novgorod (among other tags) isn't yellow.
 
I think that a systematic approach is needed in this matter. So far, cultures are much broader than the various principalities. In this case, how does the Smolensk culture differ from the Polotsk culture?
Smolensk and Polotsk are different principalities..
the Rurikovichs did not rule in Polotsk. The Principality is an exception.

there were much more differences between them than between the Burgundians and the French.
But we are not embarrassed by the presence of both the Burgundians and the French of Ile-de-France


Polotsk culture needs to be added.
Severskaya (Chernigov) and maybe Radimichi (Bryansk) to reduce the volume of Severskaya.
You can visit Polesie culture in Turov and Pinsk
Volynskaya
Galichskaya
Smolenskaya (Krivichi)
Novgorod (Slovenian)
Suzdal (Vladimir)
Vyatichi (Ryazan-Murom)
Kievskaya
Bolkhovskaya (between Kyiv and Galich). The Bolkhovites surrendered to the Mongols, suffered little and were destroyed by Daniil Galitsky in the 1260s.
Pomeranian
Vologda (or Kostroma) - to separate the Novgorodians above the Muscovites on the current map, because this region was settled from Suzdal.
It is possible to think that Grodno and Minsk are different subcultures of conventional Belarusians.
Because The Principality of Grodno was separate from Polotsk.

More crops. We have many cultures in France, which means we need to reflect the pre-Mongol structure of Rus' with principalities with a 300-year history based on tribal unions of Slavic tribes.

Plus the abundance of cultures - we will move away from nationalist disputes originally from the 19th century.

The game starts in 1337. You need to look at what happened then, and not in the 16th century.
 
Last edited:
  • 4
  • 1Like
Reactions:
If any nordic country colonises northen coast on the map the colony should be called Bjarmaland. It should be possible do to as the area seems unclaimed on the map. Always wanted to see Norway with Kola and colonies on white sea coast.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I think this is the weirdest part, for me anyway. If they've separated Ruthenian culture so that it could later diverge into Ukrainian and Byelorussian, then that means they've already got mechanics to allows divergent cultures to appear.

Then why not add the same mechanic to the entirety of eastern Slavic lands. Let them all start as Russian (Rus', Ruthenian, whatever name would be politically correct in the contemporary Europe) culture, then get dynamically separated over the course of the game. You could even make it so that they separate depending on the tag that the pops live under. If under a non East slavic tag they diverge dynamically into Ukrainian (under Poland) and Byelorussian (under Lithuania). Or they separate (probably over a longer period of time) into tag-named cultures if living under an east Slavic tag (e.g. Muscovites under Moscow, Tverians under Tver, etc).

That would both be realistic, historically accurate, and add an interesting gameplay layer to try to rush Russian lands' unification (that historically wouldn't take centuries) to reap benefits of having a unified culture across your realm.
Because it's not historical. In Soviet Historiography was main narrative that once there was a massive giga Rus (obviously RUSSIA) nation that was split after Mongol invasion. It was never united, to begin with. Rus was a sort of an Empire with many cultures and subjects within it. Even the name Ruthenian (or other variations) for culture was for the most of Rus existence was situated in a small area of Kyiv-Chernihiv-Pereyaslav.
Later after the fall of Rus Galicia-Volhynia adopted this name. the rulers had coins with name Rex Russiae in XIII century and Vladimir-Suzdal/Muscovy in XV century

The best division is probably this https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...8th-of-june-2024-russia.1692158/post-29731989 by onodera.
 
  • 3
  • 1Love
Reactions:
once there was a massive giga Rus (obviously RUSSIA) nation that was split after Mongol invasion.
This.
Mongol invasion is 1240s. The maps in Pavia's talk are 1337. The idea of a massive unified Russian culture is 100 years too late at this point (gameplay considerations notwithstanding).
 
  • 1
Reactions:
2. Maybe some, but usually not; our criteria is 'Would an oceanic fleet be able to come into this sea tile?' If not, then it won't be connected, as it would cause several problematic issues. It's already connected for markets and trading purposes through the rivers, though.
No idea if anyone has commented it or not.
How land units are only possible to move on land tiles and ships are only possible to move on sea tiles. Why not sort of split the sea tiles into separe sea tiles, like ocean sea tile and inland sea tile. Where ocean fleet can only move in ocean sea tile, while non-ocean fleet can move in inland (and ocean) sea tile(s)? And if you were to merge ocean fleet with nin-ocean fleet, then you can't move that fleet into inland sea tile, until it does not have ocean fleet.
Or if it's too much work, then could add some sort of attrition system, where non-ocean ships take a lot of attrition in ocean waters (because not built for it) and same way ocean ships take "attrition" in inland waters (because not built for some shallow waters).
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Good DD on the map of Russia.
 
Because it's not historical. In Soviet Historiography was main narrative that once there was a massive giga Rus (obviously RUSSIA) nation that was split after Mongol invasion. It was never united, to begin with. Rus was a sort of an Empire with many cultures and subjects within it. Even the name Ruthenian (or other variations) for culture was for the most of Rus existence was situated in a small area of Kyiv-Chernihiv-Pereyaslav.
Later after the fall of Rus Galicia-Volhynia adopted this name. the rulers had coins with name Rex Russiae in XIII century and Vladimir-Suzdal/Muscovy in XV century

The best division is probably this https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...8th-of-june-2024-russia.1692158/post-29731989 by onodera.
the problem is that Kyiv and Chernigov are late seizures. and the initial “Rus” was in Novgorod (Slovene) + the allied chronicle tribes Chud, Ves, Murom.

So there is no need to deny any part of the HRE Rurikovich the common Slavic heritage.

we have a letter from Pope Gregory to Yuri of Suzdal, where he calls him the King of Russia. pre mongol
 

Attachments

  • 3r.PNG
    3r.PNG
    62,7 KB · Views: 0
  • 2r.jpg
    2r.jpg
    215 KB · Views: 0
  • 1r.jpg
    1r.jpg
    130,3 KB · Views: 0
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
I think that name of muscovite culture is kind of incorrect since muscovy have not completely conquered whole territory at the time of 1337.
I think its better to call it Zalessian, after the name of region, Zalesye

sorry for bad english (ᵔᴥᵔ)
 
  • 11Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
the problem is that Kyiv and Chernigov are late seizures. and the initial “Rus” was in Novgorod (Slovene) + the allied chronicle tribes Chud, Ves, Murom.

So there is no need to deny any part of the HRE Rurikovich the common Slavic heritage.

we have a letter from Pope Gregory to Yuri of Suzdal, where he calls him the King of Russia. pre mongol

According to archaeological excavations, Novgorod was founded no earlier than the beginning of the 10th century. A consensus of historians has been formed on this issue for a long time.

Rurik, who supposedly ruled in Novgorod half a century before its foundation, is a legendary character, not confirmed by reliable sources, unknown to contemporaries, the first mentions of whom appeared more than 200 years after he allegedly lived. Metropolitan Ilarion, a contemporary of Yaroslav the Wise, called Igor, not Rurik, the first representative of the dynasty of Kyiv princes.

Regarding Rus in Novgorod, once again, historians, including Russian ones, have long drawn attention to the fact that Novgorodians considered Rus to be a rather limited territory around Kyiv. When someone from Novgorod went to Kyiv, the Novgorod chronicle wrote that he went to Rus.
 
  • 4
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
According to archaeological excavations, Novgorod was founded no earlier than the beginning of the 10th century. A consensus of historians has been formed on this issue for a long time.

Rurik, who supposedly ruled in Novgorod half a century before its foundation, is a legendary character, not confirmed by reliable sources, unknown to contemporaries, the first mentions of whom appeared more than 200 years after he allegedly lived. Metropolitan Ilarion, a contemporary of Yaroslav the Wise, called Igor, not Rurik, the first representative of the dynasty of Kyiv princes.

Regarding Rus in Novgorod, once again, historians, including Russian ones, have long drawn attention to the fact that Novgorodians considered Rus to be a rather limited territory around Kyiv. When someone from Novgorod went to Kyiv, the Novgorod chronicle wrote that he went to Rus.

I read the Novgorod Chronicle and the Elder and Younger. And the agreements of Novgorod with Livonia and Hansa.

as I already wrote in the topic
the word Rus' - had 2 meanings
1) the area around the capital is the Domain of the Grand Duke.
Other regions by provincial names.
2) the general name of the territory where the Rurik Family rules.
Both
in the cultural sense - the Tale of Igor's Campaign,
in church terms - one territory
and in the diplomatic sense - the treaties of Smolensk with the Gothic coast, and of Novgorod with Livonia. - Rus' is everywhere, and "Rusians people"
and feudal - Prince of All Rus'. Those. something big, and not the Prince of Kiev, as a capital territory.

Novgorodians wrote to themselves that they were Novgorodians. or Slovenian. But at the same time, Rus'.

just as the Swabians knew that they were Swabians, and the Germans as subjects of the HRE.

Novgorod is the place where the fate of Rus' was decided through the hiring of Scandinavian mercenaries. Who will rule.
Novgorod is the link between the Scandinavian rulers and their relatives in Kyiv.

One cannot deny Novgorod the fact that it is not Rus'.
in Novgorod epics - “Mother Rus'”, “Russian People”
 
Last edited:
  • 7
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Something's wrong with the point, maybe? Going back to your original post: "This is why in Russian the inhabitants of the Rus Land are called "Ancient Russians" (Russian: древнерусские), despite the existence of endonyms that still survive in Ukrainian and Belarusian". You reference a specific wiki page, so did you mean:

"This is why in Russian the inhabitants of the Rus Land are called "Ancient Russian nation" (Russian: древнерусская народность), despite the existence of endonyms that still survive in Ukrainian and Belarusian""
My point still stands. Rather than using even a more appropriate term, such as "Руський", the term "Русский" appears within "древнерусский". This almost, if not outright, conflates Rus with Russia, despite Rus's clear development into Ukraine and Belarus, while Muscovy went in a generally distinct direction. Russia is not a continuation of Rus. Just as Rus wasn't "Ancient Russia", Russia is not even close to a "Modern Rus". Do not be so obtuse as to not understand this.
Um... Frankly, one is not derived from the other. "древнерусский" is an adjective of "Древняя Русь" (in English: Ancient Russian derives from Ancient Rus), not an extended variant of "русский" (in English: Ancient Russian is not Russian + Ancient). Nobody uses "древнерусский" as an ethnonym.

To be honest, I don't understand what you've written. Maybe something's missing in your long sentence?
You're not dumb, the word "Русский" and "Древнерусский" in Russian automatically connect Rus (modern Ukraine and Belarus), which has almost in every occasion been brutalised and repressed by Moscow (and before that, Vladimir-Suzdal), to the idea that Russia is the modern Rus, with an inherent belonging of Ukraine and Belarus to it.
What's "seniority over other East Slavic peoples"? More importantly, HOW seniority over other East Slavic peoples? You're implying that nations are a part of an immanent hierarchy when they aren't.
Don't put words in my mouth. I was describing a common trend in Russian historiography. A trend that intentionally conflates Ukrainian and Belarusian history with Russian history on purpose with words chosen.
Sure does. Why wouldn't it. The French don't mind claiming Gaul, why should Russians be any different.
Probably because the French actually live in what was actually Gaul. As far as the Primary Chronicle and other Rusian sources are concerned, Rus was specifically central and western Ukraine and central and western Belarus. None of which is Russia. Russia has no claim except for fabrication and centuries of colonialism and deceit.
 
  • 13
  • 1
Reactions: