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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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Your disputes about sources - Cuke you head and shoulders. So far you have never been able to give him a reasoned answer.
and you certainly haven’t read the Novgorod chronicles and surviving treaties, otherwise you wouldn’t be so categorical in your misconceptions.

Novgorod never abandoned the Prince as an institution.

For the mentality of Slavic and Scandinavian society did not see a land without a Prince in principle

In the Novgorod “land”, as well as in the other “lands of the Rurikovichs” - the totality of which was called Russia, there was no hereditary feudalism that anyone could overthrow.

About what feudalism is - read Mark Blok - Feudal Society - 1930s edition, he is French, so he doesn’t have any Muscovite ideas in his book)))
While you do not understand the essence of the term well.

in Novgorod there were always princes from the Rurikovichs. This was at first the traditional inheritance of the eldest son, then, as the number of members of the dynasty increased, it was simply one of the main “destinations” of the Rurikovichs.
The 50 year wars over who would put their prince in Novgorod between Suzdal, Chernigov and Smolensk apparently passed your knowledge of history.

PS
If anything, I’m not Russian, and you can turn off chauvinism. I am not encroaching on Ukrainian culture and history. And I think I even know more about the 11th-15th centuries than many “patriots.” from all sides.
At this point, I'm not even sure what you're trying to prove. Novgorod was a Veche Republic, in that it elected it's princes and dismissed them when they were no longer needed, such as with the two times that Oleksandr Nevsky was elected.
PS. It doesn't matter if you are Russian, what matters is that what you are asserting is simply untrue.
 
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Dude, according to Russian sources, the title of the first Russian tsar was "Sovereign, Tsar, and Grand Prince of all Rus'" ("Государь, Царь и Великий князь всея Руси").
You are talking nonsense.
And the Emperors of Trebizond claimed to be "faithful Autokrators of all the East, Iberians, and Perateia. It certainly didn't align with reality.
 
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This guy claims, that according to Russian sources, Moscow and Russia are not Rus'. But according to Russian sources Russia is Rus' and Moscow in one of the centers of power of the Rus', that shifted from Kiev (the second one is Novgorod).

The other part of your message is debatable, but it is pointless to argue about this with guys like you.
The theory of transition is indeed a Russian claim starting in the 17th century that would be codified by the Russian Mikhail Lomonosov. There is nothing from sources from Ukraine, Belarus, Poland or Lithuania that hold this position. In other words, Russian sources back you up, sources from Rus itself along with Rus's neighbours outright contradict you.
 
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No, in the narrow sense of the word, for describing internal events in the chronicles, Rus' is purely a Kiev region.
*Kyiv, not "Kiev". And you have finally said something correct.
Chernigov and Pereyaslavl were like Volyn or Novgorod - named separately by capital cities.

in Chernigov from the 12th century until the absorption by Lithuania, the house of Rostislavich firmly sat.
and Pereyaslavl was a junior house, with the function of defense against the Tatars. Military border principality. The prince from the house that controlled Kyiv often sat there.
The last prince of Pereyaslavl was Svyatoslav Vsevolodovich - from the Suzdal house.
At this point, a Rurikid is no longer even the mark of being Rus, given that there was a defined Rus land. By the end of the Rurik rule in Rus, the Gediminids (later the Jagiellons and their successors) were the established Grand Princes of Rus, and the Piasts succeeded the Rurikids as Kings of Rus. Vladimir-Suzdal and Moscow operated on fumes with their claims, and what's more, they were only able to push their spurious claims through coercion (Treaty of Pereyaslav) and dirty deals (Partitions of the Commonwealth). Even then, they still had to rewrite history and force their ideas in order for such fictions to become considered even close to factual.
But Rus' as a political meaning was for the entire region where the Rurikovichs sat.
Only from sources that originate in Moscow and Vladimir-Suzdal...
 
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It bugs me down to see "Rurikovich" and "Cherdyn" & "Vyatka" as dynasties and then "Muscovy" and "muscovites" on the same set of maps. Let me explain:

Rurikovich is a transliterated Russian word for a singular (ruling) descendant of Rurik. The transliterated name for the dynasty would be Rurikovichi with 'i' at the end (plural name). At least in CK2 you (Paradox) named them Rurikids following English convention. However calling the country "Rurikovichi" is same as calling England as "Plantagenets".

On the very same map you use "Vyatka" (originally a tribe name) and then "Cherdyn" (a city, first mentioned in 1451, much later than the year declared). I understand you may need to come up with at least some dynasty names, and you don't want to be inaccurate. Hence again maybe call places, not dynasties?

And then "Muskovy" and "muscovites" - an English exonym which was never used as endonym.

1720158549029.png
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It would be nice to have some consistency:)
 
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Cherdyn isn't actually that big of a problem since it is a Komi name and there was a settlement in Cherdyn during the medieval period before they were recorded. So I doubt the name would have changed prior to them being recorded by the Russians.
 
At this point, I'm not even sure what you're trying to prove. Novgorod was a Veche Republic, in that it elected it's princes and dismissed them when they were no longer needed, such as with the two times that Oleksandr Nevsky was elected.
PS. It doesn't matter if you are Russian, what matters is that what you are asserting is simply untrue.
You are again let down by your low knowledge of the topic.

Veche - was absolutely everywhere in the lands of the Rurikovichs
both in Volyn and Suzdal.

but there was no Republic anywhere) This form of government simply did not exist among the Slavs.
Every "Land" must had to have a Prince.
Yes, they could limit him - forcing him to listen to the interests of the “Best People”. But the Prince is the nail on which the system rests. And he always was.
 
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*Kyiv, not "Kiev". And you have finally said something correct.

At this point, a Rurikid is no longer even the mark of being Rus, given that there was a defined Rus land. By the end of the Rurik rule in Rus, the Gediminids (later the Jagiellons and their successors) were the established Grand Princes of Rus, and the Piasts succeeded the Rurikids as Kings of Rus. Vladimir-Suzdal and Moscow operated on fumes with their claims, and what's more, they were only able to push their spurious claims through coercion (Treaty of Pereyaslav) and dirty deals (Partitions of the Commonwealth). Even then, they still had to rewrite history and force their ideas in order for such fictions to become considered even close to factual.

Only from sources that originate in Moscow and Vladimir-Suzdal...
you are full of grievances about much later historical eras, and most likely modern times.
you have a right for modernity.

But this does not justify the fact that you drag later realities and grievances into 1337, fundamentally not wanting to know how the principalities were structured and who fought in the territories that you call the Motherland and for which you are so worried that you write out entire nations from the common cultural heritage.

This is where I will end the argument with you.
you are not interested in how it was in history, you have a weak knowledge base. but a lot of negativity.
 
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Cherdyn isn't actually that big of a problem since it is a Komi name and there was a settlement in Cherdyn during the medieval period before they were recorded. So I doubt the name would have changed prior to them being recorded by the Russians.
True. Though I wanted to illustrate how we see different naming ways on the same map. A brief search shows Cherdyn is thought to be originally a some sort of religious place, not even a town or a name for people. And that would be totally good name together with other city names like "Tver" or "Rostov".

But then instead of Moskva we have Muscovy and muscovites (ahistorical exonym, but that's ok), and finally Rurikid (la ville c'est moi!).

As a note: I understand this is a historical game, so there should be a fine balance between accessibility and familiarity on one side, and the accuracy and education on the other.
 
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On the very same map you use "Vyatka" (originally a tribe name) and then "Cherdyn" (a city, first mentioned in 1451, much later than the year declared). I understand you may need to come up with at least some dynasty names, and you don't want to be inaccurate. Hence again maybe call places, not dynasties?
To me, it's just Project Caesar's example of CK's "of Vyatka" and "of Cherdyn" dynasties, that's all. You are looking at the dynasty map, after all :)
 
I think the whole essence of the dispute comes down to the fact that Russian players want gaming advantages for expansion in the form of a huge single culture in the territories of Eastern Europe. I don't think this is correct. And yes, Novgorod does not have to turn into Russia, it can be a high state. Or some other option.
Yes but Pavia has already identified that cultures are to be split along language lines. So, there are 2 consensuses here:
1) if French are split into 10+ cultures, then Russians should be split as well;
2) there's a map of 5 Russian dialects which can be easily digitized and implemented in the game.

So the dispute shifted into the "Rus are not Russians!!!111" sidetalk.
 
Only from sources that originate in Moscow and Vladimir-Suzdal...
This is factually incorrect. For example:
1) Novgorod 1 Chronicle is neither Muscovite nor Vladimirian source, and it identifies Northern lands as Rus land consistently, e.g. in 1327 when tatars fight Tver or in 1337 when the Karela attack Rusian settlers & traders.
2) Smolensk is neither Moscow nor Vladimir-Suzdal but they call themselves Rusyns in the treaty with Riga.
UPD: 3) Rogozhsky Chronicle indicates that from Tver's perspective the lands of Tatar Yoke were Rus: in 1322 the khan had sent an army ("the messenger") "на Роусь" after Prince Yuriy of Moscow.

So, practically everyone outside of Mid-Dnieper region had decided not to entartain Kiewan claim to exclusivity of the term "Rus".

By the way, Rus-in-narrow-sense is first mentioned reliably in Kiewan chronicle (naturally) in 1132, not in Primary chronicle (which finished around 1117). This is cross-referenced in Novgorod 1 Chronicle, which uses the same Kiewan news in 1132.
 
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Yes but Pavia has already identified that cultures are to be split along language lines. So, there are 2 consensuses here:
1) if French are split into 10+ cultures, then Russians should be split as well;
2) there's a map of 5 Russian dialects which can be easily digitized and implemented in the game.

So the dispute shifted into the "Rus are not Russians!!!111" sidetalk.
I see, now it all comes down to the name. Moscovia is of Latin origin. You know what role Latin played. Let's take the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Russian and Zhamoit, which had a border with a state entity around Moscow and called this entity Mosvovia and the inhabitants Muscovites. That's why the question in the title arises. Some consider themselves Rusyns, and others Russians, but the former do not consider themselves a part of the latter or the latter a part of themselves, these are different cultures. That is why you cannot give them the same name.
 
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I see, now it all comes down to the name. Moscovia is of Latin origin. You know what role Latin played.
It comes down to the name indeed, but Paradox had already found a solution: Russians + Ruthenians. Ruthenia is of Latin origin, Russia is of Greek origin, and you know what role Greek played, right? :)
 
It comes down to the name indeed, but Paradox had already found a solution: Russians + Ruthenians. Ruthenia is of Latin origin, Russia is of Greek origin, and you know what role Greek played, right? :)
Speaking about Latin, I meant the way the name of Muscovy got into English or other Western European languages. This is not a Western invention.
 
1720179377288.png


Donkov - Dankov
Stanovoye? - was called Ploskoe
Volovo - Terbuny (older village)
Zadonsk - was called Teshevka before 1779
Michurinsk - Kozlov (Michurin is a soviet sientist)
I cant see one on top of Lipetsk but i guess its Ust Stanovykh Ryas
Zherdevka - Chibizovka
Morshansk - Morsha
Sarai - Sapozhok (Change for both location and province)
Belinsky - Chembar
Serdobsk - Serdobinskaya
 
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View attachment 1158584
I cant see one on top of Lipetsk but i guess its Ust Stanovykh Ryas
Sarai - Sapozhok (Both location and province)
@Pavía could we have a bigger map of this area, please?
My two cents:
This "Ust stanovykh whatever" is a bad location name because the location is small and the name is too long to see.
"Sarai" is a very common turkish term and therefore should be used as rarely as possible.
 
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Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
View attachment 1154677
Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

View attachment 1154678
View attachment 1155164
The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
View attachment 1154695
Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
View attachment 1154683
We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
View attachment 1154684
The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
View attachment 1154685
View attachment 1154686
View attachment 1154687
Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
View attachment 1154688
Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
View attachment 1154689
Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
View attachment 1155251
Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
View attachment 1154965
The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
View attachment 1154693
View attachment 1154984
View attachment 1154985

View attachment 1154987
View attachment 1154990
Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
I finally understood this province

1720191533784.png


It is fully incorrectly spelled (Sezzhee is correct one) and is an incredibly small village
better to use Borskoye
 
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Petrovskoye -> Derzovka or Izberdei (Izberdey)
Petrovskoye itself is a 1700s village named either after Peter 1 or the local landlord.
Derzovka is a river name, therefore it's the less personal option.
Izberdey is a village from 1600s. It sounds like a local tatar name, possibly a local river name. This area is on tatar side of the border in 1337, so I think it's the most appropriate name.