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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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I finally understood this province

View attachment 1158729

It is fully incorrectly spelled (Sezzhee is correct one) and is an incredibly small village
better to use Borskoye
I think this is a good example of why it's better to use Uezd borders for locations. There was almost to none villages there that have somewhat of a sizable population
scale_1200.png
download-image-translation.jpg

But with this division there was always somewhat of a center city.
 

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To recollect, it seems that Bjarmians, Merya, Meshchera, Bulgars, Old Magyars and East Galindians should be alive in some form.
 
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In other words, Russian sources back you up
I'm glad we were able to come to an agreement at least on this question.
The theory of transition is indeed a Russian claim starting in the 17th century that would be codified by the Russian Mikhail Lomonosov.
Ivan IV the Terrible (1530–1584) proclaimed himself <Grand Prince of all Rus'>, so the idea of the transition from Rus' to Russia existed long before that.
 
Russian people realizing they would have to be playing as Severians until the end of the game if they want to start as a Russian minor tag that's not Moscow or Novgorod:

View attachment 1155187
It makes me very sad that nobody seems to know or care about Tver, including the devs. Novgorod should not be Moscow's rival to unite Russia, Tver should be.
 
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It makes me very sad that nobody seems to know or care about Tver, including the devs. Novgorod should not be Moscow's rival to unite Russia, Tver should be.
Yes, we know, but is it worth giving Tver a chance to regain dominance? Because what the Russians won’t undertake, they end up with a Russian empire with its capital in Moscow. It was amazing for me to watch how people playing a mega company starting with the Cumans in Emperor Rome created Russia with its capital in Moscow in EU4
 
Yes, we know, but is it worth giving Tver a chance to regain dominance? Because what the Russians won’t undertake, they end up with a Russian empire with its capital in Moscow. It was amazing for me to watch how people playing a mega company starting with the Cumans in Emperor Rome created Russia with its capital in Moscow in EU4
I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say.
 
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I think the whole essence of the dispute comes down to the fact that Russian players want gaming advantages for expansion in the form of a huge single culture in the territories of Eastern Europe. I don't think this is correct.

As a fan of Russian history, I can say that this is not the case at all. The problem is that for me, many culture suggestions sound comical. In Russia, Muscovites, Ryazanians, Pskovians - these are the names of city residents used in everyday life. Just like New Yorkers is the name for city residents, and Arizonians is the name for state residents. Now imagine a game featuring modern USA, and instead of a mix of various cultures that populate the USA, we would get a unique culture for each state. Yes, they would all belong to one cultural group. But people would still be puzzled why the game has CULTURES of Alabamians, Arizonians, Louisianans, etc. And a dialect map, like this one, won't really help:

1720207065956.png


Trying to do something similar for Russia, honestly, isn't much different. There was a unified state, Kievan Rus', which was divided into principalities. A principality is a political unit of division, just like a state. And copying the name of a principality for the name of a culture, when in historical research, no one ever speaks about such cultures, is at least strange.

Regarding the division proposed by the developers, as I wrote above, separating the Novgorodian is quite acceptable, based on their unique dialect. Personally, I might not have done this, but I can at least understand the logic behind this decision, therefore I can accept such a decision. But for example, if we take Severian, it's simply the name of an ancient tribe that existed in this territory in the 9th century. And it turns out to be a whole mixed bag: Muscovite and Novgorodian cultures (named after cities/principalities), Severian (named after an ancient tribe), Ruthenian (something closest to culture). And in the end, one doesn't match with the other at all. If instead we had something like: Northern Rus, Eastern Rus, Western Rus, I think it would sound better. Or something like that, I'm not necessarily suggesting these exact names.

Take for example the map of Balkans that was published today. We have Hungarians, Greeks, Turks, Serbs, Bosnians, Wallachians. But we don't have attempts to take administrative divisions of various countries and designate them as separate cultures. Where is my Ottomanian culture? :)

Overall, I want to look at the region and not ask myself: "what is this even?". That's how I feel, at least.
 
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Yes, we know, but is it worth giving Tver a chance to regain dominance? Because what the Russians won’t undertake, they end up with a Russian empire with its capital in Moscow. It was amazing for me to watch how people playing a mega company starting with the Cumans in Emperor Rome created Russia with its capital in Moscow in EU4
Tver rose greatly due to the flight to Tver from the Mongol population in the 1280-1290s. Including from Chernigov and Kyiv. Just like Moscow.

Plus, it’s not reflected in the game - but Tver is a transit point between Novgorod and other northeastern principalities.
Trade Hub.
An important river port on the Volga. Control of a significant section of the upper Volga.
That's where the money comes from. and Many Towns.

Even now Tver is an important river logistics hub.

But Tver doesn’t have much room to expand. Because it is locked between Novgorod, Moscow and Smolensk.

as part of the Game of Tver, it is necessary to take away the title of Grand Duke of Vladimir from Moscow - this will give control over the Domain of the Vladimir Principality and the right to collect tribute for the Mongols from North-Eastern Rus', including Novgorod
 
It makes me very sad that nobody seems to know or care about Tver, including the devs. Novgorod should not be Moscow's rival to unite Russia, Tver should be.
in the 14th century Tver and Nizhny Novgorod (+Suzdal)
were rivals of Moscow for the title of the Grand Duchy of Vladimir. This dispute was over supremacy within the framework of the pre-Mongol Principality of Vladimir (Suzdal) and historically dependent on the Vladimir Principality - Novgorod and Ryazan-Murom.

There were no claims to anything more in the former possessions of the pre-Mongol Rurikovichs
Moreover, in the Moscow chronicles of the 13-14th centuries they wrote little about the princes of Ryazan.
Therefore, we do not fully know the genealogy of Oleg Ryazansky, the most powerful prince of Ryazan and rival of Dmitry Donskoy.

The residents of Vladimir were not interested in this - Ryazan was a different region for them.
 
in the 14th century Tver and Nizhny Novgorod (+Suzdal)
were rivals of Moscow for the title of the Grand Duchy of Vladimir. This dispute was over supremacy within the framework of the pre-Mongol Principality of Vladimir (Suzdal) and historically dependent on the Vladimir Principality - Novgorod and Ryazan-Murom.

There were no claims to anything more in the former possessions of the pre-Mongol Rurikovichs
Moreover, in the Moscow chronicles of the 13-14th centuries they wrote little about the princes of Ryazan.
Therefore, we do not fully know the genealogy of Oleg Ryazansky, the most powerful prince of Ryazan and rival of Dmitry Donskoy.

The residents of Vladimir were not interested in this - Ryazan was a different region for them.
It seems to me that after Vladimir was essentially reunified by Moscow, it did not take long for Moscow's rulers to develop ambitions to control all of the territory historically ruled by the Rurikids.

The main point of my comment is that I am worried that people will see Novgorod as a country whose purpose is to compete against Moscow to unite their common region. But it doesn't seem to me that this reflects reality, and it overlooks the Tver-Moscow rivalry which was, to my understanding, the most important struggle involving Moscow during the 1300s.

I also do think that Vladimir should probably be an international organisation of some kind in the game and possibly replace the Tatar yoke.
 
It seems to me that after Vladimir was essentially reunified by Moscow, it did not take long for Moscow's rulers to develop ambitions to control all of the territory historically ruled by the Rurikids.

The main point of my comment is that I am worried that people will see Novgorod as a country whose purpose is to compete against Moscow to unite their common region. But it doesn't seem to me that this reflects reality, and it overlooks the Tver-Moscow rivalry which was, to my understanding, the most important struggle involving Moscow during the 1300s.

I also do think that Vladimir should probably be an international organisation of some kind in the game and possibly replace the Tatar yoke.
in 1337 Moscow does not yet dominate, because The Horde actively interferes in the affairs of the vassals and does not allow one side to become too strong.
Moscow's dominance began to grow with the outbreak of civil war in the horde in the 1360s, when
1) on the one hand, the Horde had no time for vassals
2) on the other hand, Moscow was able to legitimize its expansion by purchasing rights to principalities from the Horde.
So in the 1390s, Moscow bought from the Horde the right to Nizhny Novgorod, which it had captured.

The third aspect is the growth of Moscow’s possessions, its new territories (Uglich, Beloozero, Kostroma, etc.) were included in the Moscow Domain, and not the Vladimir Domain.
 
in 1337 Moscow does not yet dominate, because The Horde actively interferes in the affairs of the vassals and does not allow one side to become too strong.
Moscow's dominance began to grow with the outbreak of civil war in the horde in the 1360s, when
1) on the one hand, the Horde had no time for vassals
2) on the other hand, Moscow was able to legitimize its expansion by purchasing rights to principalities from the Horde.
So in the 1390s, Moscow bought from the Horde the right to Nizhny Novgorod, which it had captured.

The third aspect is the growth of Moscow’s possessions, its new territories (Uglich, Beloozero, Kostroma, etc.) were included in the Moscow Domain, and not the Vladimir Domain.
I am not attempting to disagree with you on any of this.
 
As a fan of Russian history, I can say that this is not the case at all. The problem is that for me, many culture suggestions sound comical. In Russia, Muscovites, Ryazanians, Pskovians - these are the names of city residents used in everyday life. Just like New Yorkers is the name for city residents, and Arizonians is the name for state residents. Now imagine a game featuring modern USA, and instead of a mix of various cultures that populate the USA, we would get a unique culture for each state. Yes, they would all belong to one cultural group. But people would still be puzzled why the game has CULTURES of Alabamians, Arizonians, Louisianans, etc. And a dialect map, like this one, won't really help:

View attachment 1158993

Trying to do something similar for Russia, honestly, isn't much different. There was a unified state, Kievan Rus', which was divided into principalities. A principality is a political unit of division, just like a state. And copying the name of a principality for the name of a culture, when in historical research, no one ever speaks about such cultures, is at least strange.

Regarding the division proposed by the developers, as I wrote above, separating the Novgorodian is quite acceptable, based on their unique dialect. Personally, I might not have done this, but I can at least understand the logic behind this decision, therefore I can accept such a decision. But for example, if we take Severian, it's simply the name of an ancient tribe that existed in this territory in the 9th century. And it turns out to be a whole mixed bag: Muscovite and Novgorodian cultures (named after cities/principalities), Severian (named after an ancient tribe), Ruthenian (something closest to culture). And in the end, one doesn't match with the other at all. If instead we had something like: Northern Rus, Eastern Rus, Western Rus, I think it would sound better. Or something like that, I'm not necessarily suggesting these exact names.

Take for example the map of Anatolia that was published today. We have Hungarians, Greeks, Turks, Serbs, Bosnians, Wallachians. But we don't have attempts to take administrative divisions of various countries and designate them as separate cultures. Where is my Ottomanian culture? :)

Overall, I want to look at the region and not ask myself: "what is this even?". That's how I feel, at least.
You are judging from a modern point of view. This is an anachronism. You want Moscow to come to other lands of Eastern Europe and the entire population of these regions rejoices, “Hurray, we have been liberated.” But the reality was different, blood flowed like a river, those who were not killed had their noses and ears cut off, and in general Moscow was engaged in the deportation of peoples, and this is a sign of an empire in its worst sense. So no, people were not happy that Moscow came to them. Different cultures allow us to simulate this situation. It shouldn't be easy. Kievan Rus is a designation of a historical period, and not of some kind of united state.
 
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You are judging from a modern point of view. This is an anachronism. You want Moscow to come to other lands of Eastern Europe and the entire population of these regions rejoices, “Hurray, we have been liberated.” But the reality was different, blood flowed like a river, those who were not killed had their noses and ears cut off, and in general Moscow was engaged in the deportation of peoples, and this is a sign of an empire in its worst sense. So no, people were not happy that Moscow came to them. Different cultures allow us to simulate this situation. It shouldn't be easy. Kievan Rus is a designation of a historical period, and not of some kind of united state.
deportation of the elite.
resettling peoples is already the 20th century.
Before that, neither logistics nor the economy allowed it.
 
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You are judging from a modern point of view. This is an anachronism. You want Moscow to come to other lands of Eastern Europe and the entire population of these regions rejoices, “Hurray, we have been liberated.” But the reality was different, blood flowed like a river, those who were not killed had their noses and ears cut off, and in general Moscow was engaged in the deportation of peoples, and this is a sign of an empire in its worst sense. So no, people were not happy that Moscow came to them. Different cultures allow us to simulate this situation. It shouldn't be easy. Kievan Rus is a designation of a historical period, and not of some kind of united state.
It wasn't nice, but the unification of Russian lands allowed to get rid of the Mongol-Tatar yoke.
I'm not againt the different cultures, but the current names are pretty bad. As was mention before there are Hungarians, Greeks, Turks, Serbs, Bosnians, Wallachians in other parts of the map, but there are no Russians at all. An event of merging Russian cultures into one could solve this issue as well.
 
@Pavía I am concerned about how mineral-poor European Russia is currently, especially anything (most likely) related to full-cycle firearms and artillery production. As of now I can see only half of a dozen locations producing iron, but what about everything else? Since the 2nd half of the 15th century (Ivan III reign) Russia widely used artillery and firearms (Ugra Stand, Kazan war of 1487, Conquest of Pskov etc, probably forgot smth). By that time there was major firearms production established in Moscow and Tula at least. There was also significant gunpowder production in a form of domestic variety of non-granular blackpowder. May be it makes sense to add saltpeter to at least some locations like Smolensk, Pskov, Nizhny Novgorod, may be even Borovichi or present day Krasnoyarsky District to the North of Samara and especially Kolomna? And by the way are all of the non food raw materials can only be produced in special locations or there are some building allowing production of at least some of them later on anywhere?
 
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I am concerned about how mineral-poor European Russia is currently, especially anything (most likely) related to full-cycle firearms and artillery production. As of now I can see only half of a dozen locations producing iron, but what about everything else? Since the 2nd half of the 15th century (Ivan III reign) Russia widely used artillery and firearms (Ugra Stand, Kazan war of 1487, Conquest of Pskov etc, probably forgot smth). By that time there was major firearms production established in Moscow and Tula at least. There was also significant gunpowder production in a form of domestic variety of non-granular blackpowder. May be it makes sense to add saltpeter to at least some locations like Smolensk, Pskov, Nizhny Novgorod, may be even Borovichi or present day Krasnoyarsky District to the North of Samara and especially Kolomna? And by the way are all of the non food raw materials can only be produced in special locations or there are some building allowing production of at least some of them later on anywhere?
Russia did have limited sources of metal. Tula production is from 1600s - or, in a nutshell, from the time of conquering Tula.
 
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@Pavía I am concerned about how mineral-poor European Russia is currently, especially anything (most likely) related to full-cycle firearms and artillery production. As of now I can see only half of a dozen locations producing iron, but what about everything else? Since the 2nd half of the 15th century (Ivan III reign) Russia widely used artillery and firearms (Ugra Stand, Kazan war of 1487, Conquest of Pskov etc, probably forgot smth). By that time there was major firearms production established in Moscow and Tula at least. There was also significant gunpowder production in a form of domestic variety of non-granular blackpowder. May be it makes sense to add saltpeter to at least some locations like Smolensk, Pskov, Nizhny Novgorod, may be even Borovichi or present day Krasnoyarsky District to the North of Samara and especially Kolomna? And by the way are all of the non food raw materials can only be produced in special locations or there are some building allowing production of at least some of them later on anywhere?
European Russia is very poor in metals.
There are no precious metals at all.
They mainly used bog iron and it was always in short supply.
actively imported metals from Europe.
The Ivan 3 Artillery Park was created partly due to the Reformation in Europe, when prices for non-ferrous metals (bells and church roofs) fell. And Russia was actively buying them.

Factories in Karelia and the Urals - Peter's time.
The first deposits of precious metals were Nerchinsk (Chita region 1690s) and Zmeinaya Gora - Altai (1720s).