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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
View attachment 1154677
Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

View attachment 1154678
View attachment 1155164
The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
View attachment 1154695
Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
View attachment 1154683
We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
View attachment 1154684
The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
View attachment 1154685
View attachment 1154686
View attachment 1154687
Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
View attachment 1154688
Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
View attachment 1154689
Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
View attachment 1155251
Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
View attachment 1154965
The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
View attachment 1154693
View attachment 1154984
View attachment 1154985

View attachment 1154987
View attachment 1154990
Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
View attachment 1154677
Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

View attachment 1154678
View attachment 1155164
The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
View attachment 1154695
Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
View attachment 1154683
We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
View attachment 1154684
The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
View attachment 1154685
View attachment 1154686
View attachment 1154687
Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
View attachment 1154688
Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
View attachment 1154689
Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
View attachment 1155251
Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
View attachment 1154965
The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
View attachment 1154693
View attachment 1154984
View attachment 1154985

View attachment 1154987
View attachment 1154990
Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
Can you rename Beloozero to Belosersk? Personally I think it would be much more fitting than the random english name, which sounds to modern an like below zero.
 
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Can you rename Beloozero to Belosersk? Personally I think it would be much more fitting than the random english name, which sounds to modern an like below zero.
Absolutely not! Belozersk (Белозе́рск), was known as Beloozero (Белоозеро) until 1777. It's not a "random English name", but a historical Russian name.
 
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It wasn't nice, but the unification of Russian lands allowed to get rid of the Mongol-Tatar yoke.
I'm not againt the different cultures, but the current names are pretty bad. As was mention before there are Hungarians, Greeks, Turks, Serbs, Bosnians, Wallachians in other parts of the map, but there are no Russians at all. An event of merging Russian cultures into one could solve this issue as well.
The weakening of the horde allowed Moscow to strengthen. Moscow skillfully exploited differences in the horde. That's why you confuse cause and effect.
 
The weakening of the horde allowed Moscow to strengthen. Moscow skillfully exploited differences in the horde. That's why you confuse cause and effect.
I don't see any confusion. When Moscow became stronger than the Horde, it threw off the Mongol-Tatar yoke.
It became stronger than the Horde because:
1. It united the Russian principalities.
2. The Horde became weaker.
 
Hello @Pavía & @Johan!

Could you please consider renaming Muscovy to Moscow? Here is my reasoning for such a renaming:

1. Consistency
Russian states were named Grand Principalities during this period. For example:
  • Grand Principality of Ryazan
  • Grand Principality of Tver
  • Grand Principality of Rostov
  • Grand Principality of Moscow
I understand that using such long names is not always convenient, so you shortened them:
  • Grand Principality of Ryazan to Ryazan
  • Grand Principality of Tver to Tver
  • Grand Principality of Rostov to Rostov
But why is the "Grand Principality of Moscow" referred to as "Muscovy"? For consistency, by analogy with the previous principalities, it should be "Grand Principality of Moscow" to "Moscow".

2. Historical Accuracy
In Russian historical sources, including chronicles and documents of that time, the term "Principality of Moscow" or "Grand Principality of Moscow" is used.

3. Respectfulness and Inclusivity
The term "Muscovites" as a name for Russians also has negative connotations. In a historical context, this word was sometimes used by other peoples with a negative tone or to denote Russians as enemies or invaders. Therefore, using this term can cause misunderstandings and negative associations. In modern realities, this term is close to a slur for Russian people.

I believe that by making these small textual changes, you will make your game more respectful and inclusive for all players.

Love your games!
Thank you for your attention,
Sandro
 
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View attachment 1156934

I've taken everyone's feedback and I've updated my cultural map. Hopefully this will be the final version, but if you have any feedback please tell me again, I do want to make this map perfect.


Thanks for the info on the Sámi, I've added them to the north of lake Onega and everywhere that they were present. I also had to change their colour because otherwise they would have been hard to distinguish from the Karelians, however I didn't change the Sámi colour in Murmansk because I don't think they should actually be Orange, I only did it for illustrative purposes.


Fair point, I've changed it now.


You are right that the Udmurts were concentrated in that region, but they also did reach further north, it's just that northern Vyatka is sparsely populated, but the few people who lived there were Udmurts. See the Vyatka principality for more details. As for the Bjarmians, I'm not touching them anymore, I know that I said that I wanted to make the map perfect, but I'm breaking that rule when it comes to the Bjarms. They're a nightmare to research and almost all of the evidence comes from a small amount of archaeological sites, also many of the sources are in Russian and impossible to track down. So I'm giving up on researching them, it's not worth it.

As for the Meshchera, yes they were definitely present in 1337, in fact the last accounts of their presence are from the 16th century. They survived for so long because the lived in the Meshchera lowlands, which were extremely swampy and never had much large scale Russian settlement. I actually underrepresented them originally as I misjudged the size of the Meshchera lowlands; I've also added a Severian minority to the Tuma location, as there were Russian settlements on the north bank of the Oka river, which is in the Tuma location.

Finally the Ungri, Fair point about the name, the term Ungri is only used in Eastern Roman, Arabic and Frankish sources. So I've instead changed the name to the old Magyarok word for Magyar, which is Mogyer; it's not a perfect name but it's the best I could think of. I also expanded Mogyer to include the region of Magna Hungaria, which was Mogyer in the 1230s according to the accounts of Friar Julian. To verify this, I read This Journal on the connections between many Uralic and Ob-Ugric peoples to the Hungarian conquerors. The Journal backs up the conclusion that the Chiyalik culture was related to the Kushnarenkovo and Karayakupovo cultures, which lived in the region of Magna Hungaria at the time of Friar Julians travels. The evidence points towards all 3 of these cultures being related to the Magyars, it also points towards the conclusion that these peoples lived in these regions as late as the early 14th century, although this link isn't as strong with the Kushnarenkovo and Karayakupovo cultures.

Finally I added a Kazani minority to the Kungur location, to represent the Gaina tribe. Who underwent Kipchakisation starting in the 13th century and are often regarded as a Volga Tatar people from the 14th century onwards.

That's all the changes I've made so far, I might make more later, but it depends on how much feedback I get on the map. I still could portray Arkhangelsk better, but it would take a long time to do the research. Even then, my portrayal of the Arkhangelsk area is still an improvement over the original Tinto map, so I hope it helps when the new cultural map for the Russia region is made, when the Russia feedback thread is made. Anyway, that's all for now, bye.
Sorry if a bit late, but I have a question. Why there is a big community of Chuvash people in the middle of Kazani Tatars?
 
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Sorry if a bit late, but I have a question. Why there is a big community of Chuvash people in the middle of Kazani Tatars?
The Russian censuses all report that there's a strong Chuvash community just east of the city of Bolghar. Which seeing as the Chuvash were very much linked with the Bolghar people I decided to show the community as being present in 1337. Because I couldn't find any sources saying that they arrived in the region later than the Chuvash-Bolghar split. I also only put them in one location, it's just that the locations in Russia are rather large. I also made it so that there's a large Kazani minority in the location, as in most censuses the region is mostly 50/50 Kazani to Chuvash.

Edit: My point is basically that the Russian census says that they live there and I couldn't find any sources saying that they migrated there recently. But I'm not 100% sure of them being there in 1337.
 
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The Russian censuses all report that there's a strong Chuvash community just east of the city of Bolghar. Which seeing as the Chuvash were very much linked with the Bolghar people I decided to show the community as being present in 1337. Because I couldn't find any sources saying that they arrived in the region later than the Chuvash-Bolghar split. I also only put them in one location, it's just that the locations in Russia are rather large. I also made it so that there's a large Kazani minority in the location, as in most censuses the region is mostly 50/50 Kazani to Chuvash.

Edit: My point is basically that the Russian census says that they live there and I couldn't find any sources saying that they migrated there recently. But I'm not 100% sure of them being there in 1337.
There should be no Erzya east of the Volga in 1337 they were only expelled once Russians took over the area.
 
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People keep saying this, but I can't find any sources on it. If you have a source please share it with me, it would be extremely helpful.
They never left for east of the Volga like the Mari did in great numbers, who sought refuge against Christinization efforts. Neither Erzya or Moksha ever formed considerable portions of any sizable locality east of the Volga unlike Mari people who did form pockets after they were conquered by Russians.
 
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The Russian censuses all report that there's a strong Chuvash community just east of the city of Bolghar. Which seeing as the Chuvash were very much linked with the Bolghar people I decided to show the community as being present in 1337. Because I couldn't find any sources saying that they arrived in the region later than the Chuvash-Bolghar split. I also only put them in one location, it's just that the locations in Russia are rather large. I also made it so that there's a large Kazani minority in the location, as in most censuses the region is mostly 50/50 Kazani to Chuvash.

Edit: My point is basically that the Russian census says that they live there and I couldn't find any sources saying that they migrated there recently. But I'm not 100% sure of them being there in 1337.
According to Russian censuses it is very simple
all Muslims in the region = Tatars
pagans - could sign by ethnic group, even if they were later baptized into Orthodoxy

It is necessary to use modern ethnic maps on which there are many enclaves of different cultures very carefully.
for in the 17th and 18th centuries the nobles actively resettled their serfs of all nationalities into new lands that had previously been almost uninhabited due to the threat of nomads.

the same Perm Tatars are a consequence of the targeted colonization of Perm already under Russian rule.
Russian governors gave the Tatar princes the right to settle new lands. The Tatar prince transported his fellow tribesmen to Perm and received the right to hold lands, which he introduced into economic life.
 
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The Russian censuses all report that there's a strong Chuvash community just east of the city of Bolghar. Which seeing as the Chuvash were very much linked with the Bolghar people I decided to show the community as being present in 1337. Because I couldn't find any sources saying that they arrived in the region later than the Chuvash-Bolghar split. I also only put them in one location, it's just that the locations in Russia are rather large. I also made it so that there's a large Kazani minority in the location, as in most censuses the region is mostly 50/50 Kazani to Chuvash.

Edit: My point is basically that the Russian census says that they live there and I couldn't find any sources saying that they migrated there recently. But I'm not 100% sure of them being there in 1337.
Can you please share the census you are referring to? I unfortunately can't find it. About historical background all I can find that Chuvash people have build fortress Sviyazhsk(Свияжск) in 16 century for Ivan the Terrible.

Regarding the split. My understanding of it was Bolghars that converted to Islam formed the basis of tatar culture. While those who stayed shamanist but later converted to orthodox Christianity - formed Chuvash culture. This also highlights that majority of Chuvash at the start date should be shamanist. They were forcefully converted under Russia. Source in Russian.

I think it's better to leave culture in Bolghar as Tatar because it was converted to Islam quite early on.

Also it would be cool if you can add religion map to your proposals.
 
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Can you please share the census you are referring to? I unfortunately can't find it. About historical background all I can find that Chuvash people have build fortress Sviyazhsk(Свияжск) in 16 century for Ivan the Terrible.

Regarding the split. My understanding of it was Bolghars that converted to Islam formed the basis of tatar culture. While those who stayed shamanist but later converted to orthodox Christianity - formed Chuvash culture. This also highlights that majority of Chuvash at the start date should be shamanist. They were forcefully converted under Russia. Source in Russian.

I think it's better to leave culture in Bolghar as Tatar because it was converted to Islam quite early on.

Also it would be cool if you can add religion map to your proposals.
The censuses I'm using are all contemporary, as sadly I can't get as much data when it comes to the 14th century makeup of the region. I do spend a long time trying to find accounts of the situation around that time, but it's very hard much of the region went through a huge upheaval when the Mongols took over. However, all Russian censuses dating back to 1926 depict the Chuvash as living in that region, with more Chuvash living in Tatarstan 98 years ago than they did today.

This is a map of the 2010 census with the Chuvash shown in bubblegum blue.
IMG_3916.png

I know this method is flawed and imperfect, but I only use it when I completely run out of sources regarding the original period. Though sources do say that many Chuvash lived throughout Vokga Bulgaria before the Mongol invasion, but again the social upheaval that the invasion caused makes these sources less useful.
 
The censuses I'm using are all contemporary, as sadly I can't get as much data when it comes to the 14th century makeup of the region. I do spend a long time trying to find accounts of the situation around that time, but it's very hard much of the region went through a huge upheaval when the Mongols took over. However, all Russian censuses dating back to 1926 depict the Chuvash as living in that region, with more Chuvash living in Tatarstan 98 years ago than they did today.

This is a map of the 2010 census with the Chuvash shown in bubblegum blue.
View attachment 1160238
I know this method is flawed and imperfect, but I only use it when I completely run out of sources regarding the original period. Though sources do say that many Chuvash lived throughout Vokga Bulgaria before the Mongol invasion, but again the social upheaval that the invasion caused makes these sources less useful.

In my search I stumbled upon this. Beware its in Russian.

Tldr people fight over where chuvash living around Kazanka river ethnic Chuvash or a rank of Tatars. It also states that at the end a lot of chuvash ether assimilated or migrated away in 15-16 century and came back (although more into tatar Wild Steppe) at the end of 19 century (that's why you see them on the modern maps). That makes all Russian Empire (and modern ones) censuses incorrect.

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I found this map showing how Chuvash people lived if we consider the Chuvash point of view (everyone who was called chuvash is chuvash)
As I understand there are no discussions about Chuvash living between Sura and Sviya rivers. But it is a discussion about who lived around the city of Arsk.
2895870354.png
For the third near Vyatka, I found no sources supporting that.

To point out: even on the most pro Chuvash map, there are no Chuvash people near Bolghar.

In my view, you should remove Chuvash near Bolgar. But add them with Tatar minority in location called Bogatiye Sabi (which should be called Arsk) Edit: and Oli baraza(Should be Oli Baraza with capital letter)
 
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Can you please share the census you are referring to? I unfortunately can't find it. About historical background all I can find that Chuvash people have build fortress Sviyazhsk(Свияжск) in 16 century for Ivan the Terrible.

Regarding the split. My understanding of it was Bolghars that converted to Islam formed the basis of tatar culture. While those who stayed shamanist but later converted to orthodox Christianity - formed Chuvash culture. This also highlights that majority of Chuvash at the start date should be shamanist. They were forcefully converted under Russia. Source in Russian.

I think it's better to leave culture in Bolghar as Tatar because it was converted to Islam quite early on.

Also it would be cool if you can add religion map to your proposals.
Sviyazhsk is a fortress erected by the Russians to conquer Kazan. in 3 months. It was assembled in advance upstream of the Volga, dismantled and lowered with water.

Here is the capital of Chuvashia - Cheboksary - there was already a town on this site in the 15th century.
 
In my search I stumbled upon this. Beware its in Russian.

Tldr people fight over where chuvash living around Kazanka river ethnic Chuvash or a rank of Tatars. It also states that at the end a lot of chuvash ether assimilated or migrated away in 15-16 century and came back (although more into tatar Wild Steppe) at the end of 19 century (that's why you see them on the modern maps). That makes all Russian Empire (and modern ones) censuses incorrect.

View attachment 1160386

I found this map showing how Chuvash people lived if we consider Chuvash point of view (everyone who were called chuvash are chuvash)
As I understand there are no discussion around chuvash living between Sura and Sviya rivers. But it is a discussion who lived around city Arsk.
View attachment 1160387
For the third near Vyatka I found no sources supporting that.

To point out: even on the most pro Chuvash map there are no Chuvash people near Bolghar.

In my view you should remove Chuvash near Bolgar. But add them in location called Bogatiye Sabi (which should be called Arsk)
Chuvash or Tatar - this may be a matter of faith.
I have a Tatar Chuvash acquaintance, his last name is Suleimankin - i.e. some ancestor of his was most likely a Muslim named Suleiman.
Then he converted to Orthodoxy. At the same time, this man’s grandmother was a Chuvash pagan healer, while remaining Orthodox - “dual faith.”
 
Sviyazhsk is a fortress erected by the Russians to conquer Kazan. in 3 months. It was assembled in advance upstream of the Volga, dismantled and lowered with water.

Here is the capital of Chuvashia - Cheboksary - there was already a town on this site in the 15th century.
Don't see any contradiction. It was build by Chuvash people(technically not only them but also kazaks) who accepted Russian rule. They were ordered to prove that they will serve Russia.

Also chuvash people lived near Sviya river as I have shown in previous messages.

Capital of Chuvash republic is Cheboksary and Chuvash people also lived there for a long time (as they lived between Sura and Sviya rivers and Cheboksary is there)
 
Don't see any contradiction. It was build by Chuvash people(technically not only them but also kazaks) who accepted Russian rule. They were ordered to prove that they will serve Russia.

Also chuvash people lived near Sviya river as I have shown in previous messages.

Capital of Chuvash republic is Cheboksary and Chuvash people also lived there for a long time (as they lived between Sura and Sviya rivers and Cheboksary is there)
No. it was a Russian expedition. Sviyazhsk, until the generation of Kazan, was a huge military camp.
At its peak, a garrison of up to 7 thousand people lived there.
Sviyazhsk is considered one of the milestones in the history of Russian fortification, associated with the military engineer of Ivan the Terrible - Vyrodkov.

During the Russian conquest of the region, all non-Russians were evicted from Cheboksary. And for a long time they were forbidden to settle in the fortress (like the Tatars in Kazan).