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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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In the Steppes tinto maps, it seems like the western Ruthenian principalities like Kyiv and GV are part of the Tatar Yoke IO which has Muscovy as leader, does that mean Moscow will assert their tributary dominance over them too? Is it historical?
 
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I copy here the post from the Ruthenian Feedback page discussion about languages:

So, if we try to draw better culture/language/dialect maps based on the discussions above and what most people here agreed on, I would see it this way:
  • Verkhovian/Ryazanian culture (due to the Verkhovian principalities) can be created to cover the lands far to the east of Smolensk and partially Chernihiv OR these lands can be just transfered to the Muscovite culture:
Cultures_With_Ryazanian.pngCultures_No_Ryazanian.png

  • Both options would make the language/dialect maps much more balanced and historical:
Languages_Dialects.png


This makes the setup much more historic for the whole time frame and solves naming issues (like East Oka lands would have Belarusian characters).
 
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Revised culture suggestions. The lighter dash means minority.
Dark Green - Bjarmian (Zavolochye Chud' and other non-Permic Finno-Ugrians of Pinega and lower Dvina)
Lime Green - Novgorodian (the other Novgorodian areas are unchanged)
Purple - Muscovite (Same thing here)
Dark Blue - Meryan
Blue - Mari
Red - Udmurt
Orange - Komi
Yellow - Magyar/Chiyalik

The map is a frankenstein of TM8 and TM20 locations because I wanted to include all Magyar locations and they are the most relevant to this TM.
View attachment 1218218

Now at the time of this map we didn't yet know about Society of Pops as a thing, so I'd like to include some here. White labels denote a society of pops, black labels a normal country tag.
View attachment 1218256
I disagree on Bjarmian culture. It is far too little known about it, as only Norse people wrote about it. Slavic sources have outlined Veps people there
1732635195509.png

Zavolochye is usually associated with the lands of the Vepsians, and Zavolochye Chud' also with Vepsians and Permian (from which the name Bjarma might have originated)

It is the Veps (or, more precisely, the chronicle весь) that many scholars consider the first candidates for association with the Zavolochian Chuds. In particular, V. V. Pimenov believed that it was the весь people, who penetrated to the end of the I millennium A.D. into Zavolochye, were met there by the Slavs in the IX-X centuries. Earlier a similar hypothesis was expressed by D. V. Bubrich, however, considering that owning the western and south-western entrances to Zavolochye весь was competing with the Merya, moving from the south along the river Yug

About Mari - I can not find any information about the separate principalities of the Mari people. The only one I know is Ветлужское кугузство (вождество) which was a vassal state of the Golden Horde. I also think Vokhma and Pyshehug should be controlled by the Mari principality or Vyatka land
1732636547899.png


about Mari principality:
The socio-economic development of the Mari ethnos was influenced by the early feudal states of the region. Changes in the social structure were manifested during the existence of the Volga-Kama Bulgaria. The Mari were not part of this state, the basis of relations between them and the Bulgars were lively trade relations. At the same time, up to the beginning of the XIII century, the Mari paid haraj (tithe tax) and jizya (tax on non-Muslim population) to the Bulgarian rulers. Starting from the turn of the XI-XII centuries, during the period of “occupation” of North-Eastern Russia, some groups of Mari population began to pay tribute to Russian princes. Russian settlements began to appear on the western and northern outskirts of the Mari lands already in the XII century (near the mouth of the Oka River, on the Unzha River, on the Middle Vyatka River). Under 1172 the Russian fortress Gorodets Radilov is mentioned for the first time, which was built somewhat above the mouth of the Oka River on the left bank of the Volga. The city became the center of attraction for the surrounding Mari population, and later it was the Mari and their descendants who made up the bulk of Gorodets citizens [Balykina, 1997. P. 17-30].
However, Russian-Marian contacts were not always peaceful.In particular, at the end of the 12th century, an armed group of Russian settlers captured the Mari settlement of Koksharov on the Vyatka River and founded the fortress of Kotelnich in its place (or, according to one version, upstream of the river).However after that, as it is specified in the “Tale of the country of Vyatka”, “from the Pizhma river Cheremisa for ruin of Christians often raided in volosts of Kotelnich of city”[Tale of the country of Vyatka, 1905. P.42-43].According to archeological data, already in XIII-XIV centuries Vyatches completely displaced Mari from the Pizhma basin to the south and east [Makarov, 1994. P.155-184].

In the middle of XIII century Mari, as well as other peoples of the Middle Volga region, became a part of the Golden Horde.The available written sources do not report anything about the direct invasion of the Mongol-Tatars in the 30-40-ies of the XIII century on the Mari territory.Apparently, the invasion affected Mari settlements located near the areas that were most severely devastated (Volga-Kama Bulgaria, Mordovia) - the Right Bank of the Volga and the left-bank Mari lands adjacent to the Bulgaria. The Golden Horde administered the Mari population by attracting Bulgar feudals and khan's darugas. The main part of the population was divided into administrative-territorial and tax units - ulus, hundreds and tens, headed by centurions and tens dependent on the Khan's administration, as a rule, from the local nobility.The Mari, like many other peoples subject to the Golden Horde Khan, had to pay yasak, a number of other taxes, and bear various duties, including military service.They mainly supplied fur, honey and wax.

The peculiarity of the Mari's position was that they were located in the forested north-western periphery of the Dzhuchi ulus, far from the steppe zone, and they were not distinguished by a developed economy. Therefore, over a significant part of the Mari lands was not established strict control.However, it cannot be said that the khan's power in the Mari lands was only nominal.The oppressive regime was comparatively more manifested in the Gornomari Right Bank, because it was located in such a natural and geographical environment, which was economically attractive and of important strategic interest.Suffice it to mention the nearby Volga River and such large Kipchak Kipchak urban centers as Mokhshi (Narovchat) and Temnikov.The administrative center of the region, apparently, was the fortress Alamner [Mikhailov, 1972. P. 35], known from archaeological studies as the Vazhnanger (Malo-Sundyr) settlement of the XIV-XV cc. The control over the Volga Mari population was apparently exercised from the Bulgar cities (Kazan, Iski-Kazan, etc.) and the Golden Horde military settlement on the left bank of the Volga, now known as Mari-Lugovskoye selishche [Gazimzyanov, 2004. P130-131].

The establishment of the Kipchak Khanate domination in the Middle Volga region, however, did not stop the process of Russian penetration into the Mari lands.More Russian settlements appeared on the Pizhma and Middle Vyatka, the development of the Povetluzhye and the Ox-Sur interfluve began. In the Upper Povetluzhye between the principality of Galich.According to the “Vetluzhsky chronicler”, “Chronicler of the Soligalich Resurrection Monastery” and other local narrative works of chronicle character (all of them of late origin (XVII-XVIII centuries), in XII - early XV centuries there was Vetluzhsky kuguzstvo (chiefdom) - a union of local Mari tribes [Dementiev, 1892.С.1-16; 1894.P. 20-51; Nizhny Novgorod Mari, 1994.С.81-88]. The information of the mentioned Trans-Volga chroniclers in general does not contradict the real historical situation of that time [PreobrVetluzhskie kuguz (chiefs) (Kodja-Yaraltem, Kai, Bai-Boroda, Keldibek) were under the strong political influence of neighboring Russian princes (Galich, Kostroma), leaders of Vyatka land, as well as the administration of the Golden Horde. Russian princes used traditional methods of interaction with the local nobility - matrimonial alliances, befriending, inviting Mari militia to participate in feudal wars and joint military campaigns. The Kugu zovs had the opportunity to maneuver between opposing neighboring state formations, which contributed to the preservation of this union of tribes. The available sources give a poor idea of the potestar structure of the Vetluzhsky kuguzdom. However, from them it becomes clear that it was headed by a kuguz (mar. kugu oza, kuguza - “great master, elder”), who lived in a fortress (Shanga, Yakshan, Yur, Bulaksy).His power was limited to the council of elders.Pagan priests enjoyed great authority among the local population.Apparently, the title of kuguz was not hereditary.In the mentioned sources there is no hint that the Kuguz were related to each other, and Keldibek, a protégé of Tokhtamysh and the last Vetluzhsky prince, was elected by the elders [Dementiev, 1892.С.1-16; 1894.С.20-51; Annals of Soligalichskiy Voskresenskiy monastery, 1913.С. 300-306; Nizhny Novgorod Mari, 1904. С. 81-88].
Социально-экономическое развитие марийского этноса проходило под влиянием раннефеодальных государств региона. Изменения в социальной структуре проявились в период существования Волжско-Камской Булгарии. В состав этого государства марийцы не входили, основой взаимоотношений между ними и булгарами были оживленные торговые связи. Вместе с тем вплоть до начала XIII века марийцы платили булгарским правителям харадж (десятинную подать) и джизью (налог с немусульманского населения). Начиная с рубежа XI-XII вв., в период «окняжения» Северо-Восточной Руси, некоторые группы марийского населения стали платить дань русским князьям.Русские поселения стали появляться на западных и северных окраинах марийских земель уже в XII веке (близ устья Оки, на Унже, на Средней Вятке). Под 1172 год впервые упоминается русская крепость Городец Радилов, которая была построена несколько выше устья Оки на левом берегу Волги. Город стал центром притяжения для окрестного марийского населения, причем в последующем именно марийцы и их обрусевшие потомки составили основную часть го¬рожан [Балыкина, 1997. С. 17-30]. Правда, далеко не всегда русско-марийские контакты носили мирный характер. В частности, в конце XII века вооруженная группа русских переселенцев захватила марийское городище Кокшаров на реке Вятке и основала на его месте (либо, по одной из версий, выше по течению реки) крепость Котельнич. Однако после этого, как указывается в «Повести о стране Вятской», «с Пижмы реки черемиса для разорения христиан часто набегающе в волости Котелнича города» [Повесть о стране Вятской, 1905. С.42-43]. Согласно археологическим данным, уже в XIII— XIV вв. вятчане полностью вытеснили марийцев из бассейна Пижмы на юг и восток [Макаров, 1994. С.155-184].

В середине XIII века марийцы, как и другие народы Среднего Поволжья, оказались в составе Золотой Орды. Имеющиеся письменные источники ничего не сообщают о непосредственном вторжении монголо-татар в 30-40-е гг. XIII века на марийскую территорию. По видимому, нашествие задело марийские поселения, расположенные близ районов, подвергшихся наиболее жестокому разорению (Волжско-Камская Булгария, Мордовия) - это Правобережье Волги и примыкающие к Булгарии левобережные марийские земли.Золотая Орда осуществляла управление марийским населением, привлекая булгарских феодалов и ханских даруг. Основная часть населения была разделена на административно-территориальные и податные единицы - улусы, сотни и десятки, во главе которых стояли зависимые от ханской администрации сотники и десятники, как правило, из местной знати. Марийцы, как и многие другие подвластные золотоордынскому хану народы, должны были выплачивать ясак, ряд других податей, нести различные повинности, в том числе и воинскую. Они преимущественно поставляли пушнину, мед, воск.

Особенность положения марийцев заключалась в том, что они находились в лесной северо-западной периферии улуса Джучи, вдали от степной зоны, не отличались они и развитой экономикой. Поэтому над значительной частью марийских земель не было установлено жесткого контроля. Однако нельзя утверждать, что ханская власть в марийских землях была лишь номинальной. Режим угнетения сравнительно больше проявлялся в горномарийском Правобережье, поскольку оно находилось в такой природно-географической среде, которая была экономически привлекательной и представляла важный интерес в стратегическом плане. Достаточно отметить протекающую рядом Волгу и такие крупные золотоордынские городские центры, как Мохши (Наровчат) и Темников. Административным центром края, по всей видимости, была крепость Аламнер [Михайлов, 1972. С. 35], известная по археологическим исследованиям как Важнангерское (Мало-Сундырское) городище XIV-XV вв. Контроль над приволжским марийским населением, видимо, осуществлялся из булгарских городов (Казань, Иски-Казань и др.) и золотоордыиского военного поселения на левом берегу Волги, известного ныне как Мари-Луговское селище [Газимзянов, 2004. С130-131].

Установление золотоордынского господства в Среднем Поволжье, тем не менее, не остановило процесс проникновения русских в марийские земли. Больше русских поселений появилось на Пижме и Средней Вятке, началось освоение Поветлужья, Окско-Сурского междуречья.В Верхнем Поветлужье между Галичским княжеством. Вятской Землей и Улусом Джучи, согласно «Ветлужскому летописцу», «Летописцу Солигаличского Воскресенского монастыря» и другим местным повествовательным произведениям летописного характера (все они позднего происхождения (XVII-XVIII вв.), в XII - начале XV вв. существовало Ветлужское кугузство (вождество) - союз местных марийских племен [Дементьев, 1892. С. 1-16; 1894. С 20-51; Нижегородские марийцы, 1994. С. 81-88]. Сведения указанных заволжских летописцев в целом не противоречат реальной исторической обстановке того времени [ПреобрВетлужские кугузы (вожди) (Коджа-Яралтем, Кай, Бай-Борода, Кельдибек) находились под сильным политическим влиянием соседних русских князей (галичских, костромских), руководителей Вятской земли, а также администрации Золотой Орды. Русские князья применяли традиционные методы взаимодействия с местной знатью - матримониальные союзы, подручничество, приглашение к себе марийских ополченцев для участия вмеждоусобных феодальных войнах, а также в совместных военных походах. У кугу зов была возможность лавирования между противостоявшими друг другу соседними государственными образованиями, что способствовало со¬хранению этого союза племен. Имеющиеся источники дают слабое представление о потестарной структуре Ветлужского кугузства. Однако из них становится ясно, что во главе ее был кугуз (мар. кугу оза, кугуза - «великий хозяин, старейшина»), живший в крепости (Шанга, Якшан, Юр, Булаксы). Его власть ограничивалась советом старейшин. Большим авторитетом среди местного населения пользовались языческие жрецы. По-видимому, титул кугуза не являлся наследственным. В названных источниках нет никаких намеков на то, что кугузы приходились друг другу род-ственниками, а Кельдибек, ставленник Тохтамыша и последний ветлужский князь, был избран старейшинами [Дементьев, 1892. С.1-16; 1894. С. 20-51; Летопись Солигаличского Воскресенского монастыря, 1913. С. 300-306; Нижегородские марийцы, 1904. С. 81-88].
 
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I copy here the post from the Ruthenian Feedback page discussion about languages:

So, if we try to draw better culture/language/dialect maps based on the discussions above and what most people here agreed on, I would see it this way:
  • Ryazanian culture (could be also somehow called by Oka river, but I cannot think of a nice adjective) can be created to cover the lands far to the east of Smolensk and partially Chernihiv OR these lands can be just transfered to the Muscovite culture:
View attachment 1221941View attachment 1221943

  • Both options would make the language/dialect maps much more balanced:
View attachment 1221942

This makes the setup much more historic for the whole time frame and solves naming issues (like East Oka lands would have Belarusian characters).
Just to add, I think there should be more Slavic population to the south of Ryazan in Yelets and Usman. They should also be proposed Ryazan culture if it is implemented.

The border between Slavic speakers and Mishary Tatars
View attachment 1201555
Russians:
As I have outlined before
Pronsk - was a Russian city. It was a center of the Pronsk principality
Michurinsk should be named Kozlov
Usman - was a city built by settlers from Chernihiv in the 10th century
Kasimov - at that time was called Gorodets Meshersky (Meshera city) Was built before 1152 as a castle. In 1010, the region was converted to Christianity. Was never captured by the Golden Horde.
Oskol - had a Russian population before the Mongol conquest. Later became one of the Lithuanian cities.
Yelets - was a Russian city since 1060. In 1389 knyaz from Elsets Yury Ivanovich met the Metropolitan of Kiev Pimen.
Mishary:
historically formed between rivers Tsna and Moksha (Shilovo, Tambov and Penza locations).
Anna location - name comes from Tatar root


It is important to know that Christianity was not forbidden in the Golden Horde. There was a deligated Metropolit in Saray (Saray Eparchy). That can be one of the cases why so many Mishary Tatars have quickly assimilated as some could have been Orthodox. It is still debated that Cossacks were Christianized Tatars who accepted the Russian language as they became more involved with colonisers.
 
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Just to add, I think there should be more Slavic population to the south of Ryazan in Yelets and Usman. They should also be proposed Ryazan culture if it is implemented.
Totally agree, did not notice that too
 
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Just to add, I think there should be more Slavic population to the south of Ryazan in Yelets and Usman. They should also be proposed Ryazan culture if it is implemented.
Yelets is a Severia. Former Chernigov principality.
Ryazan culture never existed as a separate one. If there is a great desire to single out - then you can call it Vyatichi - by the name of the Slavic tribal union of the 7-8 centuries.
 
I disagree on Bjarmian culture. It is far too little known about it, as only Norse people wrote about it. Slavic sources have outlined Veps people there
View attachment 1221957
Zavolochye is usually associated with the lands of the Vepsians, and Zavolochye Chud' also with Vepsians and Permian (from which the name Bjarma might have originated)

It is the Veps (or, more precisely, the chronicle весь) that many scholars consider the first candidates for association with the Zavolochian Chuds. In particular, V. V. Pimenov believed that it was the весь people, who penetrated to the end of the I millennium A.D. into Zavolochye, were met there by the Slavs in the IX-X centuries. Earlier a similar hypothesis was expressed by D. V. Bubrich, however, considering that owning the western and south-western entrances to Zavolochye весь was competing with the Merya, moving from the south along the river Yug

About Mari - I can not find any information about the separate principalities of the Mari people. The only one I know is Ветлужское кугузство (вождество) which was a vassal state of the Golden Horde. I also think Vokhma and Pyshehug should be controlled by the Mari principality or Vyatka land
View attachment 1221973

about Mari principality:
Bjarmian is really dubious so making it Veps would be all right by me, especially since there's no archaeological basis for Bjarmians (unless Zavolochye Chud' in specific were Bjarmians as some scholars have thought)

As for the Mari principalities, some of them are semi-mythical, and thinking on it now they should all definitely be dependencies of the Golden Horde since the whole point of the 16th century Cheremis wars was to restore the Kazan khanate, which succeeded the Golden Horde. This is just a thought, but it could very well be that this is yet another case of some polity claiming to be a few hundred years older than it truly was, with the actually accounted for 16th century princes claiming descent from 14th century princes.

Here's a pretty good article with sources given that delves into the problem of pinning down Mari principalities

1732640063937.png



As for Vyatka land, I have read that the "chronicle" that accounted for it may have confused the dates and events to another Ushkuinik raid through the territory. There is archaeological evidence of Russians in the territory for sure, but the events themselves as described by the tale of Vyatka country may not have occurred. Vokhma and Pyschyug could be part of Vytla as there is no archaeological evidence of Vyatka people living there for a long time.
 
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Yelets is a Severia. Former Chernigov principality.
Ryazan culture never existed as a separate one. If there is a great desire to single out - then you can call it Vyatichi - by the name of the Slavic tribal union of the 7-8 centuries.
I based my categorisation on general borders between East Slavic languages and the dialects of Russian
IMG_3729.png
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But I believe we agree in the important part that East Slavic population should be a majority there.
 
Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
View attachment 1154677
Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

View attachment 1154678
View attachment 1155164
The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
View attachment 1154695
Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
View attachment 1154683
We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
View attachment 1154684
The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
View attachment 1154685
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Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
View attachment 1154688
Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
View attachment 1154689
Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
View attachment 1155251
Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
View attachment 1154965
The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
View attachment 1154693
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View attachment 1154987
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Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
I think Toropets, Vyazma and Rzhev should not be a part of Lithuania yet

1732702440458.png



1732702720181.png

here are the years presented
full map
1732702758171.png


Shamefully taken from Russian Wikipedia:

Rzhev:
The princes of Tver and Novgorod, whose possessions came directly to Rzhev, repeatedly tried to take it away from Moscow. In the XIV century, Moscow and Lithuania fought over the city, and it changed hands several times. In 1356 Rzhev was captured by the Lithuanian Grand Duke Olgerd; the Lithuanians put Ivan, son of Prince Sizhsky, in Rzhev (“Sizhsky's son Ivan sat down with Lithuania in Rzhev”). V. A. Kuchkin understands this news as evidence that the Lithuanians then for the first time captured Rzhev[9]. Two years later it was repulsed by the troops of Grand Duke Ivan II the Red. In 1359 Rzhev for nine years was again in possession of Lithuania, and only in 1368 Moscow again joins it to its lands. In 1376 Rzhev is mentioned again as a Lithuanian possession, and the participation of the Rzhev army in Dmitry Donskoy's campaign against Novgorod in 1386 indicates that the city belonged to Moscow at that time.
Тверские и новгородские князья, чьи владения подступали непосредственно к Ржеву, не раз пытались отнять его у Москвы. В XIV веке за город развернулась борьба между Москвой и Литвой, и несколько раз он переходил из рук в руки. В 1356 году Ржев был захвачен великим князем литовским Ольгердом; литовцы посадили в Ржеве Ивана, сына князя Сижского («Сижского сын Иван седе с Литвою во Ржеве»). В. А. Кучкин понимает это известие как свидетельство того, что литовцы тогда впервые захватили Ржев[9]. Через два года отбит войсками великого князя Ивана II Красного. В 1359 году Ржев на девять лет оказался вновь во владении Литвы, и лишь в 1368 году Москва опять присоединяет его к своим землям. В 1376 году Ржев упоминается опять как литовское владение, а участие ржевской рати в походе Дмитрия Донского на Новгород в 1386 году указывает о принадлежности города в то время Москве.

Toropets:
For Alexander Yaroslavich Toropets was significant also because it was here in 1239 when he had not yet earned his famous nickname Nevsky, that the prince was married to Alexandra, daughter of Polotsk prince Briachislav)[20][21]. From her, the city inherited one of the main local shrines - the Korsun icon of the Mother of God, which was kept in the cathedral of the same name for more than 700 years.

In 1362 Toropets was still occupied by the Lithuanian prince Olgerd and became part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania[22].
Для Александра Ярославича Торопец был значим ещё и потому, что именно здесь в 1239 году, когда он ещё не заслужил своё знаменитое прозвище Невский, состоялось венчание князя с Александрой, дочерью полоцкого князя Брячислава)[20][21]. От неё городу досталась одна из главных местных святынь — Корсуньская икона Божией Матери, которая хранилась в одноимённом соборе более 700 лет.

В 1362 году Торопец всё же был занят литовским князем Ольгердом и вошёл в состав Великого княжества Литовского[22].

Vyazma:
For the first time in written sources Vyazma is mentioned in 1239 - then the city was given as an appanage to Andrei Vladimirovich Dolgoi Ruka, son of the Grand Duke of Kyiv Vladimir Rurikovich. Thus Vyazemsky appanage princedom was already a component part of Smolensk Grand Duchy. Throughout its history Vyazma was a fortified city, fortifications were strengthened and expanded as the city grew[4].

On Sobornaya Gora in Vyazma, a cemetery was discovered that existed in the second half of the XIV - early XV centuries[5].

In 1403 Vyazma among the appanage towns of Smolensk land was captured by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. But already in 1493 during the Russo-Lithuanian War of 1487-1494, it went to the Russian state.
Впервые в письменных источниках Вязьма упоминается в 1239 году — тогда город был отдан в удел Андрею Владимировичу Долгой Руке, сыну великого князя Киевского Владимира Рюриковича. При этом Вяземское удельное княжество уже являлось составной частью Смоленского Великого княжества. На протяжении всей своей истории Вязьма являлась укреплённым городом, крепостные сооружения укреплялись и расширялись по мере роста города[4].

На Соборной горе в Вязьме обнаружено кладбище, которое существовало во второй половине XIV — начале XV веков[5].

В 1403 году Вязьма в числе удельных городов Смоленской земли была захвачена Великим княжеством Литовским. Но уже в 1493 году в период Русско-литовской войны 1487—1494 отошла к Русскому государству.
 
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feels like a bit quick...
They probably have been doing it for quite a while now maybe they even finished it before the Carpathian and balkan review
This is just my theory but based on previous reviews I think the majority of the changes are fonna be "internal" like locations, provinces, areas, terrain, population, culture etc... so my advice is to get ready to repost more political changes you think should be more appropriate with sources of course
 
They probably have been doing it for quite a while now maybe they even finished it before the Carpathian and balkan review
This is just my theory but based on previous reviews I think the majority of the changes are fonna be "internal" like locations, provinces, areas, terrain, population, culture etc... so my advice is to get ready to repost more political changes you think should be more appropriate with sources of course
apparently thats the reason
1732900300600.png
 
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True but I think it's because they either use different "saves" or they just simply preper the tinto talks way before they are released
Yes, using different development branches is common, and I recall that someone from the Tinto team (maybe SaintDave), confirmed that not all developers work with the same version of the game.
 
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I guess its better late than never. Gonna drop some ideas so I dont forget about them later.

So first, there is a book called
242-0.png
that was made by professor who specializes in history of ancient/medieval Russia. Some things can be picked from his work:

1. Rostov was vassalized in 1331.
ivan_kalita.pdf - Google Chrome 03.12.2024 0_48_51.png

2 Galich and Beloozero was likely bought in 1328.
ivan_kalita.pdf - Google Chrome 03.12.2024 0_49_52.png
Countries.png

Some thing unrelated to book:

1. A map of Lithuanian expansion by year:
VKL-1462-ru.png

You probably already made most northern principalities independent, but some locations that were added in Polish feedback need to be moved as well.
(Im posting it here because changes are related to Russian territories that you are currently working on. Can repost it if needed.)
Locations 4.png

Zhizhitsa and Ilyino should be moved to Toropets.
Sebech should go to Polotsk. It also should be called Sebezh.

2. Kozelsk should be a vassal state in Karachev ruled by Andrey

3. That giant wasteland in the north
Wasteland.png

was actually colonisable. Even on google maps there are ~7 villages that were created somewhere between 1500 and 1700.

4. Tver

According to some maps and wikipedia, Zubtsov and Klin should be vassals of Tver. Also Kashin should be bigger.
Tver 1322.png

So, I took some location names from this map,
Tver.jpg

And made a small rework:

Locationss.jpg

Location renamings:

Lotoshino and Volokolamsk into Mikulin and Kolp (Колпь)
Toldom into Dubna
Kalyazin into Sknyatin (Скнятин)
(Also added Brod location near Tver to make it smaller.)
 

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I guess its better late than never. Gonna drop some ideas so I dont forget about them later.

So first, there is a book called
that was made by professor who specializes in history of ancient/medieval Russia. Some things can be picked from his work:

1. Rostov was vassalized in 1331.

2 Galich and Beloozero was likely bought in 1328.

Some thing unrelated to book:

1. A map of Lithuanian expansion by year:
View attachment 1225554
You probably already made most northern principalities independent, but some locations that were added in Polish feedback need to be moved as well.
(Im posting it here because changes are related to Russian territories that you are currently working on. Can repost it if needed.)
View attachment 1225558
Zhizhitsa and Ilyino should be moved to Toropets.
Sebech should go to Polotsk. It also should be called Sebezh.

2. Kozelsk should be a vassal state in Karachev ruled by Andrey

3. That giant wasteland in the north
View attachment 1225617
was actually colonisable. Even on google maps there are ~7 villages that were created somewhere between 1500 and 1700.

4. Tver

According to some maps and wikipedia, Zubtsov and Klin should be vassals of Tver. Also Kashin should be bigger.
View attachment 1225611
So, I took some location names from this map,
View attachment 1225613
And made a small rework:

View attachment 1225633
Location renamings:

Lotoshino and Volokolamsk into Mikulin and Kolp (Колпь)
Toldom into Dubna
Kalyazin into Sknyatin (Скнятин)
(Also added Brod location near Tver to make it smaller.)
Make sure to repost this in the review! Not just because they are done already but also because I'm pretty sure that reviews are mainly about geography and demographics rather than political borders
 
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Johan gave us a spoiler, probably not final
View attachment 1226921
I wish it is, because again people will be copy-pasting their feedback like it was in Balkans Tinto Feedback.

I can see right now:
Rzhev and Toropets are still under Lithuania
There is no Mari principality

I hope @Johan reconsiders posting feedback unfinished to not put more strain on @Aldaron reading everything for another time
 
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