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Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

Greetings, and welcome to another Tinto Maps! This week we will be taking a look at Carpathia and the Balkans! It will most likely be an interesting region to take a look at, with a lot of passion involved… So I’ll just make an initial friendly reminder to keep a civil discussion, as in the latest Tinto Maps, as that’s the easiest way for us to read and gather your feedback, and improve the region in a future iteration. And now, let’s start with the maps!

Countries:
Countries.png

Carpathia and the Balkans start in a very interesting situation. The Kingdom of Hungary probably stands as the most powerful country in 1337, but that only happened after the recovery of the royal power enforced by Charles I Robert of the House of Anjou, who reined in the powerful Hungarian nobility. To the south, the power that is on the rise is the Kingdom of Serbia, ruled by Stefan Uroš IV Dušan, who has set his eyes on his neighbors to expand his power. The Byzantine Empire, meanwhile, is in a difficult position, as internal struggles ended in Andronikos III being crowned sole emperor, at the cost of dividing the realm; both Serbia and Bulgaria have in the past pressed over the bordering lands, while the Ottomans have very recently conquered Nicomedia. The control over the Southern Balkans is also very fractioned, with a branch of the Anjou ruling over Albania, the Despotate of Epirus under the nominal rule of Byzantium as a vassal, Athens, Neopatria and Salona as vassals of the Aragonese Kings of Sicily, Anjou protectorates over Achaia and Naxos, and only nominal Byzantine control over Southern Morea. It’s also noticeable the presence of the Republics of Venice and Genoa, which control several outposts over the Adriatic and Aegean Seas. A final note: in previous maps, Moldavia was shown in the map, but we’ve removed it from it, and it will most likely spawn through a chain of events in the 1340s.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The House of Anjou rules over Naples, Hungary, Albania, Achaia, and Cephalonia; they’re truly invested in their push for supremacy over the region. Apart from that, each country is ruled by different dynasties, except for Athens and Neopatria, ruled by the House of Aragón-Barcelona.

Locations:
Locations 1.png

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This week we’re posting the general map of the region, along with some more detailed maps, that can be seen if you click on the spoiler button. A starting comment is that the location density of Hungary is noticeably not very high; the reason is that it was one of the first European maps that we made, and we based it upon the historical counties. Therefore, I’m already saying in advance that this will be an area that we want to give more density when we do the review of the region; any help regarding that is welcome. Apart from that, you may notice on the more detailed maps that Crete appears in one, while not being present in the previous one; because of the zooming, the island will appear next week along with Cyprus, but I wanted to make an early sneak peek of the locations, given that is possible with this closer zoom level. Apart from that, I’m also saying in advance that we will make an important review of the Aegean Islands, so do not take them as a reference for anything, please.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Provinces! Nothing outstanding to be commented on here; as usual, we’re open to any feedback regarding them.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

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Terrain! The climate of the region is mostly divided between Continental and Mediterranean, with some warmer and some colder regions. Regarding the topography, the Carpathian mountains are famously important and strategic, while the Balkans are a quite hilly and mountainous region, which is also greatly covered by woods and forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Here comes the fun part of the DD: The cultural division of the Balkans! A few comments:
  1. Hungary is full of different minorities. Transylvania, especially, is an interesting place: there we have a mix of ‘Hungarians’, ‘Transylvanians’ (which are the Romanian-speaking inhabitants of the region), ‘Transylvanian Germans’, and ‘Szekely’ people.
  2. We have divided the Southern Slavic-speaking region into their dialectal families of Slovene, Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian.
  3. The Southern Balkans are mostly divided among Bulgarian, Albanian, and Greek cultures.
  4. We’re also portraying plenty of other cultures, such as Dalmatians, Aromanians, Sclavenes, Arvanites, Cumans, Jasz, or Ashkenazi and Romanyoti Jews.

Religions:
Religion.png

This one is also interesting. Apart from the divide between Western Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, we have the Krstjani in Bosnia, Bogomils (the pink stripes both in Bosnia and Macedonia), and Paulicians in Thrace. The Jewish populations do not pass the threshold percentage to appear on the map, but there are plenty of communities across the region.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

The materials of the region. Something very noticeable is the richness of minerals, with plenty of Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead, Gold, and Silver. Specifically, Slovakia is very rich, and you definitely want more settlers to migrate to the region, and exploit its resources. The region is also very rich in agricultural resources, as you can see.

Markets:
Markets.png

The region is mostly divided among four markets: Venice, Pest, Ragusa and Constantinople.

Country and Location population:
Population 1.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Population 4.png
Country and location population (which I’ve also sub-divided, and is under the Spoiler button).

And that’s all of today! I hope that you find the region interesting; we certainly think that it is. Next week we will go further south, and we will take a look at the Syrian Levant and Egypt. Cheers!
 
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To be honest, we aren't completely happy with the concept either, as we have four different cultures for the 'Germans of the East': Baltic German, Silesian German, Carpathian German, and Transylvanian German. But we think that it's the 'less bad' solution to portray the cultural melting pot that these places were for the different German settlers.
I would just call them by their German name „Siebenbürger“. (The proper full name would probably be „Siebenbürger Sachsen“ but thats just as long as „Transylvanian German“ and „Siebenbürger“ is clear enough)
 
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I'm hoping Ragusa is fully independent, because they were at the time and all the way until early 19th century. In 1337 they only paid a small tribute to Venice. Also, their color is way too similar to that of Venice, their big rival.
Nope, they only became independent in 1358. when Ludovik I. pushed Venice from the Dalmatian coast and gave Dubrovnik its independence with the treaty of Zadar.
 
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I have a question about the very early DD #11 on military issues. It hadn't occurred to me until I am confronted with the frustrating inability making a fantasy mod involving magic in Victoria 3. In Victoria3 it is impossible to use a different type of manpower or combat unit from a pop which meets specific requirements. From what I have learned in DD #11, it seems that all units are supplied with same manpower? I understand that it need some hard-coding to make sure pops will die among combats. It is however not clear to me whether it is possible to mod the military system in the taste of magic and fantasy. There is only one type of manpower. Is it possible to add a different type of manpower and relate some special units to specific types of pops. Actually on second thought I think the vanilla Ceasar Project would need some mechanics like this to simulate some elite armies levied or recruited from the nobility or at least wealthy groups. If it is not possible atm. I am really looking forward to see such a mod. Fantasy mod is a very popular type of total conversion mods in every PDS game. And it is really promising to see some in-depth and fun mods with a more dynamic military system allowing for different kinds of manpowers. It will be more engaging and immersive if high-quality manpower originates from the wealth pops and low-quality manpower from enslaved or poor pop.
 
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'Carpathia and the Balkans start in a very interesting situation. The Kingdom of Hungary probably stands as the most powerful country in 1337, but that only happened after the recovery of the royal power enforced by Charles I Robert of the House of Anjou, who reined in the powerful Hungarian nobility. To the south, the power that is on the rise is the Kingdom of Serbia, ruled by Stefan Uroš IV Dušan, who has set his eyes on his neighbors to expand his power. The Byzantine Empire, meanwhile, is in a difficult position, as internal struggles ended in Andronikos III being crowned sole emperor, at the cost of dividing the realm; both Serbia and Bulgaria have in the past pressed over the bordering lands, while the Ottomans have very recently conquered Nicomedia. The control over the Southern Balkans is also very fractioned, with a branch of the Anjou ruling over Albania, the Despotate of Epirus under the nominal rule of Byzantium as a vassal, Athens, Neopatria and Salona as vassals of the Aragonese Kings of Sicily, Anjou protectorates over Achaia and Naxos, and only nominal Byzantine control over Southern Morea. It’s also noticeable the presence of the Republics of Venice and Genoa, which control several outposts over the Adriatic and Aegean Seas.'

Not really related to the map itself, but can we have these sort of paragraphs when you load the game, like in EU4? I don't really have the historical knowledge to amend your research, so I usually tune in on Fridays to see the map and this summary, and they've all been good reads.
 
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Not currently, but potentially we could add them, yes.

If you had to choose 3 names for the Balkan locations, I'd have it in English, German, and Turkish widespread and then local names in Serbia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece, etc... would be in their own language. 4th name choice for all of the Balkans would be Greek.
 
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We'll have to fight for it. Either way, autocephaly happened in 1346 if I'm not mistaken (ucio sam to jos u srednjoj)
Autocephaly happened in 1219. It just wasn't raised to a patriarchate at that point, but an autocephalous archbishop.

Autocephaly doesn't require a patriarch.
 
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Just wanted to say that I am pretty impressed by the work so far, it seems to be a good balance/compromise overall!

Now most things I could have thought of as feedback for Hungary were already mentioned by others, so take this as a +1 for the following requests/suggestions:
  • There are some naming/grammatical errors for locations in Hungary. Obligatory "öőüűíéáú". #93 #170 #186 #189 #241
  • It would be much appreciated if Lake Balaton and the Carpathian rivers would be accurately represented, authentic to the period. Also, what about Fertő-tó/Lake Neusiedl? See #147 #154
  • Various provinces could probably use some adjustments,
  • Adding Csángós would be neat. Renaming Transylvanian Germans into Sachsen or Soxen could make sense along with other adjustments to cultures and pops. #5 #59 #73 #93 #336
 
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Autocephaly happened in 1219. It just wasn't raised to a patriarchate at that point, but an autocephalous archbishop.

Autocephaly doesn't require a patriarch.
I thought you meant patriarchate, that happened in 1346. There was a previous dev diary where they list Serbian archbishopric under Constantinople.
 
The reason it collapsed was Uros V (the weak) being unable to stop the nobility from growing stronger, Dusan was also a good ruler not just a conqueror so had he lived longer whould go a long way to help the Empire stay stable.
Sure, but he's going to die eventually. That much is inevitable. Him living longer shouldn't just buy time for his empire to last longer; it should also buy time for him to provide sufficient meaningful reform that it can survive past his death whenever that may be.

Such reforms can happen even before his historical death in 1355, though I do agree that I would rather not want him being forcibly killed off just because history demands it.
 
The Roman Empire needs a proper purple/reddish color... that weak pink doesn't resemble the strength of its past (second part of the sentence is obviously a joke, since it's clearly still the strongest nation in the world, ever, anytime, timeless, forever).

Now seriously, that washed pink is ugly for Byzantium :D
 
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I thought you meant patriarchate, that happened in 1346. There was a previous dev diary where they list Serbian archbishopric under Constantinople.
Right, and I'm saying that it should be independent rather than under Constantinople. That was kinda the whole point of getting autocephaly in the first place: religious independence from the Byzantines, just as being elevated to kingdom guaranteed political independence.
 
Right, and I'm saying that it should be independent rather than under Constantinople. That was kinda the whole point of getting autocephaly in the first place: religious independence from the Byzantines, just as being elevated to kingdom guaranteed political independence.
1720199228622.png

Yeah, I think they have it under Constantinople here, I see the flag. Maybe they changed it in the meantime.
 
I haven't seen anyone mention it so far, so I'll start the rabbit hole. How will Mount Athos be represented? I can see that it's its own location, with a population of 2004 people; but is it's unique situation portrayed in game? Seeing as the entire location is a monastic community where women are banned and Catalans were banned from 1305 up until 2005.

Because of it's unique situation I would suggest adding both a modifier and an International Organisation to the location. The modifier would make it so that no pops can be created in the location because women are banned, but it would greatly increase clergy capacity but only allow migration when below clergy capacity, as only the monks are allowed live there with all other people being banned from living there, only visiting. The IO could be tied to the patriarchate system of Orthodoxy, as Mount Athos stood somewhat outside the influence of any one patriarchate as it was seen as a "neutral zone" where different monasteries all (mostly) peacefully coexisted. The International Organisation should be important to the region politically, as any time Thessaloniki was conquered the monks would instantly start negotiations to maintain their autonomy.

As for the location itself, it's also represented a bit inaccurately, firstly the location should have a strong Serbian minority, as many Serbian monks lived in the monasteries. Also, from what it seems like the raw good of the region is livestock, which makes no sense seeing as female animals are also banned from the mountain and so is the consumption of meat. In reality the raw good should either be wine to represent of the monastic breweries, or medicaments because of the different crafts and remedies made by the monks. Also, there should be a building in the location which make clergy pops produce legumes to represent that the monks all make their own food and that their diet is mostly vegetables, with a bit of fish (which they don't class as meat).

Edit: The modifier should also make it so that only Orthodox pops can migrate to the location, do that if the Ottimans take over it doesn't become Sunni. Also Catalan pops should be unable to migrate to the location, because Catalans are banned.

Overall it is the weirdest and most unique place on the planet, so I hope it gets represented properly in PC, even if it makes it a bit of a pain to code.
 
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View attachment 1158855
Yeah, I think they have it under Constantinople here, I see the flag. Maybe they changed it in the meantime.
Yep. Hence my complaint. Though there's also a conspicuous lack of the autocephalous archbishop of Ohrid.

I suspect the autocephaly mechanic was not introduced with the idea that there's such a thing as an autocephalous archbishop.

Ah well... it wasn't like I wasn't planning on rewriting the whole mechanic anyway.
 
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